The Gaming Den

of our asses.

I'm putting together a Tome game, and seriously just put this warning on a link to the board:

The board that spawned the Tome. Honestly, just be aware that people have gotten used to being assholes there. It's not a friendly environment for new comers, and we're in the process of fixing that.

We're all pretty aware that we're the assholes of Game Forums, but when I need to state that first, it means the signal:noise ratio is so incredibly off putting that we're in a slow death spiral. We're driving old posters away quicker than thick hided people are finding us.

I understand that unhibited hostility is kind of our "thing," but we've fucking become like /b/ in our attitude. That's a frightening thing, and it means few people listen to the good points we make.

So, can we try to make an effort to tone down the fucking hostility? At least to new posters? Hell, let people see we've got a point before we scream at them "you're an idiot and you should feel bad".

I know I'm not the only person who's hesitated to bring people here, and I know people have warned their friends away from here. And that's fucking insane. Are we all so damaged that we have to create a place of almost pure unalloyed hostility to play out a sadomasochistic dance of self punishment and lashing out at others? It's like some byronic or Bosch-esque vision of Hell. We've been thrown out of other forums because we refuse to play by the rules, so we've turned a more lenient board into a place of torment.

This has to get turned down a notch or two, guys, at least.

Nope. Signal to Noise is better here than any other forum the noise is all in MPS, we don't seem to have a death spiral from people leaving, We let people make their point, it just so happens that most peoples first points are terrible. It's not as hostile as you think it is, you are just allowing your confirmation bias to overrule any sense of judgement.

Let's take a quick skim of Humble Opinion:

Newbie being answered without hostility, Newbie being answered without hostility, RC being destroyed for stupidity only after he starts being stupid, General insults towards wargames, Insults towards FR books, General insults towards Exalted, Stuff about a Gun Mage that I stopped reading because gun mages are stupid, Feng Shui stuff, Discussion of Squishy Wizards, Tiers and levels game, Things I hate about wands (greatest insult leveled: "If you don't like items doing X, you don't like D&D"), Thing I haven't read, but almost certainly doesn't involve newbie hate, Shadowrun Situation, caustic, but deserved Caustic.

Fuck it, I'm bored. Zero threads with people being dicks to newbies, or even people being dicks to people who didn't deserve it.

Shut up Prak, you are wrong, we are assholes when deserved, not otherwise.

As long as the newbies lurk a little before they start posting they'll be fine. That's what I did and I don't recall any newbie hate directed towards me.

tl;dr.

When a person comes here with a chip on her shoulder (or as a troll) she will probably get flamed. Some large percentage of that flaming will be indistinguishable from groupthink and flaming for the sake of flaming.

It's quite possible that a few people will go off about how great this forum is compared to others (like Kaelik just did). While bending over and kissing one's own ass might be unseemly, most of the people that post in this forum are here because it is the best. Not the best for everyone, but the best for those that post here. It's a self selection sort of tautology, but that doesn't make it any less true.

Oh, fuck off, Kaelik. Your judgment on when asshattery is appropriate isn't one I trust.

Anyway, I noticed that guy in the New Classes thread got ripped a new one over a full-BAB monk which still had all the SRD monk abilities. Which, okay, that was a sucky class. And the reviewer was harsh on the guy who joined up just to mention that (Sorry, STDoc. try again.)

But things -have- calmed down lately. Posters should be able to say what they think in a free exchange of ideas, but lately it's been chewing over the same shit (Kaelik and Crissa and often a third party arguing over feminism, 4e sucks, etc...)

There hasn't been much interesting going on lately, apart from the Regions stuff Frank keeps posting about and I have yet to seriously sit down and read.

Maxus - said reviewer was me. While I was pretty harsh, I did include a fair amount of constructive criticism in that as well. I think this puts me in a somewhat different category, as I wasn't just raging on the newbie for no apparent reason, and in fact, I think there was a fair bit to take away from what I said.

As far as Prak's post goes, I actually agree. I'm finding myself pretty disinclined towards posting here these days, as we're doing relatively little of what we used to, and more rehashing of old arguments which frankly isn't necessary. Additionally, it is getting hostile here - to the point where I've actually had to take a bit of a break from this place in the past to get some perspective on things.

In short, I love that this place is honest and full of smart people, but hate the fact that very often, instead of being creative, as we can very well be, we spend our time hating on each other.

Mister_Sinister wrote:Maxus - said reviewer was me. While I was pretty harsh, I did include a fair amount of constructive criticism in that as well. I think this puts me in a somewhat different category, as I wasn't just raging on the newbie for no apparent reason, and in fact, I think there was a fair bit to take away from what I said.

There was. And you're right; that class sucks. And there was a lot of constructive criticism in your review.

But I can understand see how Den-style discourse can turn people off.

Kaelik wrote:Nope. Signal to Noise is better here than any other forum

I disagree with that statement.

Although I agree with your point that it's not as bad right now as Prak has said (I have been here since day 1 and this is the tamest it's been in years at the moment), I don't agree on the signal to noise. As I have said before, every thread gets to a point where all points are stopped being made and it devolves into pointless bickering. Typically people making the same points over and over and over and over again and neither budging but both expecting the other to give up (because if the first 500 times you made the same point didn't work, 501 certainly will!). Differs from thread to thread, but in general I don't read most threads past about page 3, exceptions being the link threads, the entertainment threads (ones that are designed to add new ideas every so often).

Also, too many people here keep harassing people after conceding their points and demanding they address them. I have said that before, doing that is a bitch move, and it makes one a bitch.

Count Arioch the 28th wrote:

Kaelik wrote:Nope. Signal to Noise is better here than any other forum

I disagree with that statement.

Although I agree with your point that it's not as bad right now as Prak has said (I have been here since day 1 and this is the tamest it's been in years at the moment), I don't agree on the signal to noise.

I suppose it depends on what you consider signal. I consider 99% of everything ever posted on gitp to be noise, so one post a day in a thread that isn't yet all noise is more signal than gitp. Because we do productive idea shit sometimes instead of never.

Going completely off-tangent here...

Maxus wrote:There hasn't been much interesting going on lately, apart from the Regions stuff Frank keeps posting about and I have yet to seriously sit down and read.

What is this Regions stuff? I'm intrigued, but looking through In My Humble Opinion I can't seem to find any of it.

Kaelik wrote:

Count Arioch the 28th wrote:

Kaelik wrote:Nope. Signal to Noise is better here than any other forum

I disagree with that statement.

Although I agree with your point that it's not as bad right now as Prak has said (I have been here since day 1 and this is the tamest it's been in years at the moment), I don't agree on the signal to noise.

I suppose it depends on what you consider signal. I consider 99% of everything ever posted on gitp to be noise, so one post a day in a thread that isn't yet all noise is more signal than gitp. Because we do productive idea shit sometimes instead of never.

I haven't been to GitP for years, so I will have to take your word for it (I was invited by Rich personally, but I never "fit in" there.)

Tiers and Levels thread.

It's actually becoming it's own game now. Basically TNE but don't call it that because it's a curse.

Count Arioch the 28th wrote:I haven't been to GitP for years, so I will have to take your word for it (I was invited by Rich personally, but I never "fit in" there.)

I'd say the same about RPG.net, ENworld, BG, ect. Basically everything. I don't see idea shit anywhere else.

I will agree to that, it seems the creativity has been sapped out of the gaming community lately.

Mister Sinister, Maxus, I do want to say 'screw you for buying into that weird hype'.

This board has been a lot more productive in the past couple of months since we stopped giving a shit about 4E. Seriously, of the first one-hundred topics that come up with this board only five of them have anything to do 4E D&D. Yeah, this board kind of sucks in many profound ways. After the whole you-know-who incident I'll never look at this board in the same way ever again and I'm forced to agree with Prak's statement about this place being newbie-unfriendly.

But rehashing the same shit over and over? Fuck you, that's not true. You're just not paying any attention.

Lago PARANOIA wrote:Mister Sinister, Maxus, I do want to say 'screw you for buying into that weird hype'.

But rehashing the same shit over and over? Fuck you, that's not true. You're just not paying any attention.

Lately, I mean.

Right now is sort of a slow patch. There's a few threads I check on (the Elminster Must Die and Failed Design: Exalted thread have provided their moments in the past few days), but there hasn't been much which has made me want to read every damn post of a bunch of threads right now.

And I'm not any better. I'm stuck for ideas right now. I have things to do and places to go outside the Den, but it's not filling the Den with anything really interesting, is it?

Even I find myself thinking "There really isn't anything to post". And I post all the frigging time and will soon be a King.

That said, Pokeymans and Dungeon Crusade were put on indefinite hold because "Meh". So I guess I'll hover around, keep making pointless posts, and any time someone says "Wouldn't it be cool if X existed" and that catches my fancy, write it up in half an hour to continue developing my fan club.

There are lots of things that I would post, but before I click the submit button, I usually delete it because I figure no one's really going to care.

And of course there's that moratorium so I can't post all the wacky questions my stepmom is asking me about Islam.

Maj wrote:There are lots of things that I would post, but before I click the submit button, I usually delete it because I figure no one's really going to care.

And of course there's that moratorium so I can't post all the wacky questions my stepmom is asking me about Islam.

Go ask Stardestroyer.net.

That site's got some decent stuff on it. I think I might do some lurking.

But it's not just a question of asking. I spend hours writing out answers for her (Comparative Religion and Middle Eastern studies being my major in college) - and even though she's not the sharpest tool in the shed, I'm grateful that she stops to ask me questions before she forwards some of those terrible eMails around the internet further.

But I like opinions, so I'd post her questions (and my responses) here for fodder.

Maj wrote:There are lots of things that I would post, but before I click the submit button, I usually delete it because I figure no one's really going to care.

I do the same thing a lot.

Maj wrote:That site's got some decent stuff on it. I think I might do some lurking.

But it's not just a question of asking. I spend hours writing out answers for her (Comparative Religion and Middle Eastern studies being my major in college) - and even though she's not the sharpest tool in the shed, I'm grateful that she stops to ask me questions before she forwards some of those terrible eMails around the internet further.

But I like opinions, so I'd post her questions (and my responses) here for fodder.

Posting the questions in SD.net is much more likely to result in reasoned opinions. Go to the Debate Help section in particular.

I don't think that would be 'discussing politics.'

-Crissa

Not up to you to decide.

Besides, the level of reasoned debate in SD.net far exceeds Den anyway. As in they actually don't mock people who ask for basic debating stuff like sources, and their dissertations on stuff like the military deployments of the Roman Empire are simply jaw-droppingly comprehensive. So it's a good alternative to ask opinions from regardless.