The Gaming Den

I mean, there's getting wish Efreeti, which means having a caster in the party. In addition to that, there's... ummm...

What else is there? No candles of invocation, just to stop people from posting that bullshit.

For casters, simulacrum of an Efreeti works for the long term (much safer than trying to haggle with bound one). There's also fabricate, wall of iron, wall of stone construction project trading, large-scale use of animate dead or charm/dominate person for a labour force, and similar activities.

For noncasters, you essentially need to get a magic item that's worth more than 15.000gp that you can sell to someone that's already in the Wish economy.

An alternative is for the material rewards from an adventure to inherently grant sufficient material wealth to bring the players into the Wish Economy. For example, they just finished their quest and reached level 11, the quest was slaying a dragon and his hoard/lair was large enough for him to go Scrooge McDuck in.

Clerics just Plane Shift to the Celestial Plane of Piles of Gems, and then are so rich they don't care.

But see, you've got it wrong, you don't break into the Wish economy by getting an Efferti bitch. You break out of the old one.

The Wish economy is everything of greater value than a Wish, having a Wish is still being in the lower economy.

So no matter who you are, you break into the Wish economy the same way: Kill someone else with something worth more than a Wish (IE Planar Currency, badass magic item, soul.)

Kaelik (and for everyone else), I don't think he's asking for another repetition of how the Wish Economy works (It's about trading in "Planar Currency", i.e. souls)

Stick with just the first answer ("Go to the plane of Gems using Planeshift"). And any other answer that results in the PC becoming so wealthy in terms of gold that gold become irrelevant, and they have to start trading in better stuff to keep moving up.

To be perfectly honest I'm also curious as to what other methods exist.

Hm, so it's "use wish", "get ridiculous gems" (what IS that plane? I've never heard of it... or maybe just never read up about it), and "trade expensive stuff".

For Valor wrote:(what IS that plane? I've never heard of it... or maybe just never read up about it)

Quasielemental Plane of Minerals, which got removed or possibly folded into the Elemental Plane of Earth in 3e.

oh sweet. So it's somewhere on the plane of Earth.

Alternately Mount Celestia. One of their layers is literally covered in ass high piles of gems. Giant rubies, garnets, the whole deal. Jovar, the Glittering Heaven. Layer six of Celestia, MotP page 136.

-Username17

FrankTrollman wrote:Alternately Mount Celestia. One of their layers is literally covered in ass high piles of gems. Giant rubies, garnets, the whole deal. Jovar, the Glittering Heaven. Layer six of Celestia, MotP page 136.

If I recall, the first layer is a literal ocean of holy water.

Offtopic but is your avatar a necromancer from the Nox game? That's about the last game I'd have thought to see turned into an avatar.

If I remember correctly, the BoVD dark sacrifice cheesiness can get you a reasonable chance (>0%, can try again, no penalty for failure) of binding an Efreeti for one task (Wish!), starting down around level two or three. All you have to do is borrow a dark altar, its evil congregation, and a few (one per retry) virgin sacrifices to pile on the modifiers. Note that I am actually ignoring things like "completely willing sacrifice", so if you have any of these the starting level goes even lower.

Sarandosil wrote:Offtopic but is your avatar a necromancer from the Nox game? That's about the last game I'd have thought to see turned into an avatar.

I spent about 15 minutes on an avatar collection site, and it looked both cool and vaguely like my first character in a Mage game, so I've no idea of its original source.

Yeah, DC 30 result on a sacrifice: Planar Ally for one hour.

So here's what you do, you play something with an Int bonus (Blue Goblin, Grey Elf, Tiefling, Aasimar, whatever) and put 18 there for 20. You have 4 ranks in Kn. Religion and a Sacrificial Dagger as one of your minor magics (+ChLv to Kn. Religion checks). You're already at a +10. Then you take Skill Focus (Kn. Religion), and you're at +13.

Then you get a virginal surface elf paladin, and sacrifice it to Lolth after conjuring a bunch of fiendish spiders to eat it's extremities first for another +7 (+8 if being a virginal paladin counts as virginal *and* pure, for double, then another +2 if a paladin counts as being a cleric of another god. If you get these, you're at a total of +10 for sacrifice circumstance bonuses)

There, you only need to roll a 10 or better as a first level character.

Zinegata wrote:Kaelik (and for everyone else), I don't think he's asking for another repetition of how the Wish Economy works (It's about trading in "Planar Currency", i.e. souls)

Stick with just the first answer ("Go to the plane of Gems using Planeshift"). And any other answer that results in the PC becoming so wealthy in terms of gold that gold become irrelevant, and they have to start trading in better stuff to keep moving up.

To be perfectly honest I'm also curious as to what other methods exist.

But see, that's wrong.

Going to a Plane of Diamonds, or getting a bitch Efferti, these things do not put you in the Wish economy.

They make you have everything you want in the gold economy.

There is only one way to break into the Wish economy, and that's having something worth more than a Wish.

You have to actually have something in your possession that people would give you a Major magic item for to count as being in the Wish economy.

Kaelik wrote:They make you have everything you want in the gold economy.

There is only one way to break into the Wish economy, and that's having something worth more than a Wish.

You have to actually have something in your possession that people would give you a Major magic item for to count as being in the Wish economy.

Ok, I see what you're saying now, and it makes sense. Wish only breaks you out of the Gold economy. It doesn't let you start trading in planar currencies, and you aren't in the wish economy unless you're trading in planar currencies.

However, recall that adventurers are effectively defined by the ability to break into an economy solely by trading ability and labor for currency. Getting Wish puts you on a level where you can start trading your ability for planar currency instead of for gold, if only by letting you powerlevel up to wish economy levels.

my bad, then.

I was just wondering how to get wealth in lower-than-wish-level economies.

SO HA KAELIK!

Humpty Dumpty wrote: “When I use a word, it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.”

For Valor wrote:Hm, so it's "use wish", "get ridiculous gems" (what IS that plane? I've never heard of it... or maybe just never read up about it), and "trade expensive stuff".

1st ed. Manual of the Planes listed a quasi-elemental plane of Minerals (where Earth borders on the positive energy plane). It was literally composed only of gigantic gemstones, however, any given gemstone transported back to the Prime Material was 99% likely to crumble, as they "grew in zero gravity". (I think this may be dodgy from a geological standpoint, but I'm not a geologist).

As far as breaking into the wish economy, I recall a thread here where someone mentioned a CharOp boards method - play a changeling with Assume Supernatural Ability at 1st level and become a Zodar ?

-*only vaguely knows what a Zodar is*-

I've heard of that before. Explain plz?

It's a 16 HD Construct with Wish 1/year as a (Su) ability. How this Changeling does it, I don't know: they can't turn into Constructs or anything else for that matter (it's Disguise Self, which doesn't actually turn them into anything, it's basically an illusion), and Assume (Su) works on "Polymorph or similar effects" - Disguise Self is not similar to Polymorph.

Is this another example of CharOp being less than intelligent with how their crazy tricks work?

CCarter wrote:It was literally composed only of gigantic gemstones, however, any given gemstone transported back to the Prime Material was 99% likely to crumble, as they "grew in zero gravity". (I think this may be dodgy from a geological standpoint, but I'm not a geologist).

Extremely dodgy. A gemstone is just a crystal, and a crystal is just a specimen of a mineral that grew in optimal conditions and has more-or-less uninterrupted tesselating structure. Now, zero gravity may help one form, but once it's formed, it should come down to its structure.

http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&sour ... =&gs_rfai=

Koumei wrote:It's a 16 HD Construct with Wish 1/year as a (Su) ability. How this Changeling does it, I don't know: they can't turn into Constructs or anything else for that matter (it's Disguise Self, which doesn't actually turn them into anything, it's basically an illusion), and Assume (Su) works on "Polymorph or similar effects" - Disguise Self is not similar to Polymorph.

Is this another example of CharOp being less than intelligent with how their crazy tricks work?

I can't find any references to it sorry. Maybe. I checked Eberron errata and some of the changeling racial substitution levels even (that I could find online), but can't see a vaguely legal way of pulling this off.

Also @Maxus: thanks!

Vebyast wrote: Ok, I see what you're saying now, and it makes sense. Wish only breaks you out of the Gold economy.

No. Wish is the upper limit of the gold economy. The Wish Economy is really the "post-Wish economy". The Wish economy is anything that a Wish can't get you.

Neeeek wrote:No. Wish is the upper limit of the gold economy. The Wish Economy is really the "post-Wish economy". The Wish economy is anything that a Wish can't get you.

No, once you have Wish you aren't in the gold economy any more. People in the gold economy don't interact with people that have Wish, because they don't want their currency devalued. People with Wish don't interact with people in the gold economy, because they can duplicate anything in the gold economy in six seconds.

Given this, it seems that it would be more accurate to say that there are actually three economies: Gold, Wish, and post-Wish. The Wish economy is not part of the gold economy (because you can duplicate anything in it), but it's also not part of the post-Wish economy, because you're not trading in planar currencies.

No, Neeek is right, it's the upper limit of the gold economy.

frank wrote:The Wish Economy is not about trading wishes back and forth, it's a shortening of "post wish economy". That is, the basic understanding that minor and medium magic items are available from the Sultan Catalog or Djinnazon, an most importantly of all: that Major Magic Items ARE NOT. And thus, that piles of gold substantially heavier than you are can't be directly traded for items that couldn't possibly be wished for. Because at that level, that piece of scarcity actually renders such items beyond the reach of simple barter with hundreds of pounds of gold.

There is simply a limit to how much weight of trade goods people will accept in a transaction. Just like you can't buy a car with a giant sack of quarters and you can't buy a house with a duffel full of Andrew Jacksons, you can't buy a Holy Avenger with your horses' weight in gold. It's just not something that rational people would exchange in a trade.

If you want to buy a house or a Monet, you need to use a more valuable and transportable medium of exchange - such as trading another artwork or using a damn bank note. The Wish Economy is not about people trading in wishes, although they could. It's about people not trading in Gold, because after your three hundredth pound of the stuff there isn't anything you can do with another pound that you couldn't already do.

-Username17

fixed busted quote tag; also will be deleting the triple post. --Z

So, the easy way to get into the Wish economy is to get enough wishable stuff that you don't care about getting more of it very much. This would suggest a fairly simple solution.

1. Get a small pile of planar currency or some other nonwishable (probably magic) thingy of value. There are all kinds of adventures that can yield this.
2. Trade it to someone in the Wish economy for a whole bunch of wishable wealth or Wishes.
3. Repeat until you don't want anymore wishable wealth/Wishes. This shouldn't take too many repetitions unless you really like flaming swords, gemstone houses, or whatever.
3. You now have all the Wishable stuff you want. Thus, you are in the Wish Economy.

-------------------------------------------------------
Example step 1s:

- Go raid a soul farm in Hades
- Stab dying people with thinaun shivs
- Find something high-level. Stab something it dislikes in exchange for an item it can craft without significant personal cost.
- Ask a Diviner to give you a lead on tracking down some Hope.
- Find a sage or bard, figure out where a cool artifact might be.
- Capture and either magically dominate or train a powerful monster
- Does a politician planars would care about owe you favors? That's marketable.
- Get a nice piece of property in Sigil or some other planar metropolis where space is at a premium and spiff it up a bit. This might be possible to convert into planar currency, and you might be able to get it for gold and/or favors.
- Put together an original and good-quality piece of entertainment. Perform it for a boss genie of some kind.

More ideas may follow when I get back home from my library shift.