The Gaming Den

So, what are the limits to Suggestion? The description states:

"The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the activity sound reasonable. Asking the creature to stab itself, throw itself onto a spear, immolate itself, or do some other obviously harmful act automatically negates the effect of the spell. However, a suggestion that a pool of acid is actually pure water and that a quick dip would be refreshing is another matter."

So, it basically says you can't make the creature do something dangerous unless you tell it the action isn't dangerous first.

What about "you can fly, jump off that cliff" or "I cast Protection from Fire on you, fireball yourself and you'll see"?

I have a monster that uses suggestion coming up, but the players will also have access to it, so I want to come up with a rough power level.

It's one of those effects that isn't entirely clear, but I think the intention is that the target is willing to do anything that it doesn't know is dangerous. In the acid example, I imagine that the target doesn't know for sure what is in the pool, and the suggestion that is is water doesn't conflict with prior knowledge.

With the energy resistance thing, unless the target has Spellcraft and can tell that it was suggestion cast rather than protection from fire, the fireball does seem a reasonable suggestion.

Note that both the"you can fly"/"jump off that cliff" and the protection from fire/fireball yourself (or stand still while I fireball you) are two separate Suggestions that would require two separate saving throws for each one.

Just another user wrote:Note that both the"you can fly"/"jump off that cliff" and the protection from fire/fireball yourself (or stand still while I fireball you) are two separate Suggestions that would require two separate saving throws for each one.

But they already give "That acid is clear water"/"You should swim in it" as an example of one suggestion. It's the same fucking thing.

I personally don't use Suggestion any more for anything, because it's too incoherent and different DMs respond too differently to its writeup.

-Username17

I generally follow the "You can't make a Suggested PC commit suicide" rule. Unless you use illusions to make a glass of acid look like a glass of water (out of sight of the Suggested being), and then ask him to drink said "glass of water".

Zinegata wrote:I generally follow the "You can't make a Suggested PC commit suicide" rule. Unless you use illusions to make a glass of acid look like a glass of water (out of sight of the Suggested being), and then ask him to drink said "glass of water".

Of course, most acids are clear aqueous solutions, so...

Archmage wrote:

Zinegata wrote:I generally follow the "You can't make a Suggested PC commit suicide" rule. Unless you use illusions to make a glass of acid look like a glass of water (out of sight of the Suggested being), and then ask him to drink said "glass of water".

Of course, most acids are clear aqueous solutions, so...

I tend to visualize fantasy acid as green .

Still, yeah, asking someone to eat poisoned food (with a tasteless, odorless, and colorless poison) would be kosher. Again, as long as it looks safe, then it's okay for the Suggested person to do it.

As vague and uncertain as Suggestion is, it's still more interesting than the Essentials version of Suggestion (sic).

Zinegata wrote:I tend to visualize fantasy acid as green .

As Archmage mentioned, it's often clear. Some might give off fumes that would alert you, but not all of them do.

You guys must be really bored to start nitpicking on the color of fantasy acid.

I tend to assume, barring the intervention of spells, that substances in a fantasy universe are similar to their real-life equivalents if at all possible.

So while a black dragon or a giant slug might spray a viscous green substance that is incidentally acidic, a glass of hydrochloric acid is going to look just like water--because that's what hydrochloric acid looks like.

Besides, this is the Den. We have nothing better to do than point out flaws in other people's statements. That's why we're here.

I also tend to assume that saying it's fantasy acid would have clarified matters, especially given that most games like to color-code acid as green rather than clear.

Instead of, you know, people bitching with big pictures of real-world acid that you're never gonna see in a fantasy game.

I also picture fantasy acid as being green - I assume that when a dragon breathes it or you make it with a spell, it's green. No idea why. Maybe acid was really supposed to be green all this time, but someone forgot to give reality a memo. That said:

Zinegata wrote:real-world acid that you're never gonna see in a fantasy game.

Wikipedia wrote:Sulfuric acid was discovered by medieval European alchemists. They called it "oil of vitriol".

This is most likely what Alchemist Acid (see: Flasked Avenger rogues) is. It is a strong, common, easy-access acid. It is also clear.

Historically called muriatic acid or spirits of salt, hydrochloric acid was produced from vitriol and common salt. It first appeared during the Renaissance

Note: also found inside the stomach, so readily available as a very special Acid Splash (Ex) ability. So arguably, if you feed some people the right foods and make them vomit every day, that could be your flask acid.

The first mention of nitric acid is in Pseudo-Geber´s De Inventione Veritatis, wherein it is obtained by calcining a mixture of niter, alum and blue vitriol. It was again described by Albert the Great in the 13th century and by Ramon Lull, who prepared it by heating niter and clay and called it "eau forte" (aqua fortis).

Also clear (unless it's very concentrated or very old, where it takes on a yellow-ish look).

Now if we wanted some Hydrofluoric Acid (nobody wants that, or to be anywhere near it) then we'd be getting to the stage of "Discovered/created way later than the other technology seen in D&D". So HF is beyond what D&D characters would have, but the others listed, no way.

Now you're so bored that you're taking my words out of context just to gain any kind of traction in this old, tired, and discredited argument. Or you're simply intellectually dishonest.

The whole statement was - "Instead of, you know, people bitching with big pictures of real-world acid that you're never gonna see in a fantasy game." So obviously, I was referring to the picture linked here.

So if you wanna claim a flask a hydrochloric acid marked "HCl" will show up fantasy game, go right ahead. Because I'm pretty sure even alchemists in the Middle Ages hadn't exactly come up with the periodic table yet.

Poison and acid flasks are generally colored green in a lot of computer fantasy games. And like I said, I'm talking about fantasy acid. The SRD doesn't really say what color it is, so if you wanna be technical about it, go right ahead and claim it's actually clear.

But do it in another thread, because it's really totally unrelated to the original topic of Suggestion (and using illusion to disguise acid, or poison, or demon bile, or whatever, as something more benign to make someone drink it - i.e. water), and it's certainly got nothing to do with my statements anyway.

hahahahaha

"Is that Black Dragon shooting water out it's nose? What kind of--OW WHAT THE HELL?!?!?!"

Zinegata wrote:Now you're so bored that you're taking my words out of context just to gain any kind of traction in this old, tired, and discredited argument. Or you're simply intellectually dishonest.

Bored, yes. And I guess I read the emphasis wrong - I assumed the "that you're never going to see" was in relation to the acid, not the picture. Yeah, I doubt they'd write "HCl" on it, but they would probably write "Acid: do not drink or you will die" or even just "Acid".

The point is, it still looks like water, so the Suggestion works fine as-is and thus doesn't require an extra illusion. Unless you use that very same flask that says "Acid: do not drink or you will die" in which case they may have reason to question your word.

As such, and returning to the original point: the examples given... apparently would work, as dumb as it sounds. So basically it comes down to "Argue with your DM", just like Charms, Illusions etc.

So there, it has now been tied neatly back into the original point. And I'm still trying to figure out what video games I played as a kid that taught me "acid==green", because damnit I know it happened.

Maybe the Batman game that was based off the first movie? I think the chemical plant level might have had green acid... I know Moraffe's World had the acid dragons/dragonflies as White, whereas Green was Poison and Black was Disease (Blue got to be Ice, with Yellow taking Lightning. Red was Fire, for the record), but I remember that being the exception: I saw a white dragonfly and thought "okay, cold attack incomi-what do you mean, acid?"

I have never denied that acid in the real life can be (and is often) of clear color. Seriously. Go check.

However, I had visualized acid as being generally green in fantasy. Hence the need to use illusion. Does it conflict with the point above? No it does not.

Moreover like I had already said, yes - you can totally use an odorless, colorless, tasteless poison too without needing illusions to make a Suggestion work. Replace "poison" with "acid", and the same thing applies.

And on that note, I have to agree with For Valor that the idea of a Black Dragon snorting out "water" is hilarious.

Koumei: Mortal Kombat, the sewer stage.

My favorite: "Your mother's calling. Go to her." eliminate 1 PC for the rest of the combat.

Zine -

I imagine Fantasy water to be blue, so you'd need an illusion to disguise clear acid as (blue) water anyway.

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An for the record "acid green" is a common color name. Not sure where the trope comes from though. Probably over-generalizations like 'frogs and snakes are poisonous' & 'frogs and snakes are green' -> 'poison is green' & 'acid is poison' -> 'acid is green'.

Acid Green is a two part aniline dye. You neutralize a sulphonic acid while the cloth is suffused in the dye, and then the dye stops being soluble and the cloth stays green through many washes.

It's also called Alkali Green, because while one half of the process is an acid, the other half is alkaline.

-Username17

Necro!

Let's say I want to try doing this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=er4zU20y8kg

How many Suggestion castings do I need to use to minimize the odds my target gets their head straight within the next hour?