The Gaming Den

I just got done playing final fantasy 13, and something came to me:

Wizards can remake reality on a whim, and noone bats a eye because that's what wizards do, but when a human fighter is jumping thirty stories vertically to slice at a bird...it just doesn't make any sense. in order to compete at those levels of power, you NEED some type of magical(reality-bending) ability, because reality is getting bent so much that not bending it puts you into the shit tier.

To those of you who have watched final fantasy advent children: what class and level would you put cloud at? Outside of some final fantasy universe where being cool actually is more tactically effective than...using tactics, non-magic people can no longer even pretend to compete once people are flying at will. It makes me wonder if the game designers really thought about this when making the classes.

Short answer: Some do and some don't. Some get hamstrung by low level shit like LotR when designing a game that isn't limited to high level.

I'd have to go check my save file.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7iSVSrg ... re=related

What level would you put the Beast at? I'd say the in the 15-17 range.

There's not much in there that can't be explained by muscle power and INTENSE TRAINING and CLIMBING THE WALL SO YOUR KUNG-FU WILL NOT BE WEAK, GRASSHOPPER!

But if you tried to write some non-magic monk who gains those sorts of abilities, people would FREAK.

Maxus wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7iSVSrg ... re=related

What level would you put the Beast at? I'd say the in the 15-17 range.

There's not much in there that can't be explained by muscle power and INTENSE TRAINING and CLIMBING THE WALL SO YOUR KUNG-FU WILL NOT BE WEAK, GRASSHOPPER!

But if you tried to write some non-magic monk who gains those sorts of abilities, people would FREAK.

Exactly my point. They NEED magic...probably past level 5. How do we fix this? give everyone magic? just give them feats like "you can now jump 60 feet in any direction as a move action(acts as teleport)", or what?

Strung Nether wrote:

Maxus wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7iSVSrg ... re=related

What level would you put the Beast at? I'd say the in the 15-17 range.

There's not much in there that can't be explained by muscle power and INTENSE TRAINING and CLIMBING THE WALL SO YOUR KUNG-FU WILL NOT BE WEAK, GRASSHOPPER!

But if you tried to write some non-magic monk who gains those sorts of abilities, people would FREAK.

Exactly my point. They NEED magic...probably past level 5. How do we fix this? give everyone magic? just give them feats like "you can now jump 60 feet in any direction as a move action(acts as teleport)", or what?

Truly.

Sure, Tome handles this with "Your kung fu is so awesome you ignore DR and Hardness" for Monks and "You are now too angry to easily be killed' for a Barbarian.

But this has met with some very stiff resistance.

Personally, I'd like to see multiple d20 lines. On one end, you can have Lord of the Rings. In the middle, you can have something like Tome. At the high end, you can have God of War d20.

Possibly, melee types should become inherently stronger and tougher as they gain levels. Hercules was supposedly level 7 or 8 in D&D terms, but that breaks when you factor in his strength. Normal D&D expects a 20th-level character to still move 30 feet a round and says "No, you can't pick up that giant boulder and hit someone with it."

Strung Nether wrote: Exactly my point. They NEED magic...probably past level 5. How do we fix this? give everyone magic? just give them feats like "you can now jump 60 feet in any direction as a move action(acts as teleport)", or what?

You make magic shitty and weak, the way its supposed to be.

Give every one magic, but don't give everyone spells.

This has come up before, basically should Batman be a part of the Justice League because he's just a human, although exceptional one. Batman does have superpowers though, he's super smart, super skilled and super wealthy. Those are bonafide superpowers even though they aren't mutations or results of an experiment gone awry. Let everyone have superpowers.

The only model that hasn't met huge resistance has always been the magic item model. So, no one minds if you have Boots of Leaping, but doing it under your own power is always right out except for a few concepts like Monks.

K wrote:The only model that hasn't met huge resistance has always been the magic item model. So, no one minds if you have Boots of Leaping, but doing it under your own power is always right out except for a few concepts like Monks.

This has also met huge resistance. Just not as huge. Look how many people fap to low magic D&D.

That and boots of leaping would just let you jump a little higher, not do the crazy shit you see in games like GoW and Dissidia.

K wrote: The only model that hasn't met huge resistance has always been the magic item model.

Are you kidding?

While all of the other systems have their fair share of detractors and adherents, practically no one likes the Christmas Tree effect.

While they complain about it, they still commonly use it anyway, but are less likely to even include a different model.

Also, the magic item model is not solely the Christmas Tree effect.

Beast is like... level 6 or so at best. Most of the X-men are.

Ororo has some bigger powers (Conduit with some flying ability?), and Wolvie has somehow got "The Ancient One", but they're all pretty mundane people with a few tricks up their sleeves, and are Luminaries, not extras.

The Phoenix is an exception, and is a template that can be added to Jean Gray, in any campaign (since, that pretty much happens, series re-boot, and Phoenix shows up again).

I still think it could totally work to have an almost Black Forest type system. You'd have a shit tier with nonmagical heroes and shitty magic and you'd have a god tier where everyone is a wizard. And the god tier would literally be god tier.

Judging__Eagle wrote:Beast is like... level 6 or so at best. Most of the X-men are.

Wrong Beast. I mean, the old man who is the ultimate villain of Kung Fu Hustle and regards things like catching a bullet with two fingers and taking on two other legendary fighters at once to be small potatoes. Check the link

virgil wrote:While they complain about it, they still commonly use it anyway, but are less likely to even include a different model.

It's only commonly used due to inertia and lack of imagination. Notice that this is a trope specific to RPGs with only one degree of separation from D&D and fantasy stories/games not so beholden to D&D-inspired heroic fantasy tend to be much less beholden to that trope.

Few people actually want to gain a combo-platter of required abilities from their trinkets. They either want to keep pretending like their characters are relevant without the trinkets (and the trinkets are a good way for them to stay in denial about the fact that they've been left behind by the paradigm shift) or they want their heroes to function without the trinkets.

Also, the magic item model is not solely the Christmas Tree effect.

If you're planning on making magical items a replacement for superpowers, then yes it will be.

Unless you want to load people up in gear that has several effects combined at once, like Iron Man armor or Green Lantern rings--which I support, it's just that loading the barbarian in Iron Man's suit reveals just how shallow the concept is because all of their barbarian abilities are pretty much overshadowed by the Iron Man suit.

He'd be just as effective of a hero and do pretty much the same things if he was a rogue or a monk in an Iron Man suit. Meaning that their mundane barbarian abilities are pretty much pointless, he just gets off to calling himself a barbarian.

Lago PARANOIA wrote:It's only commonly used due to inertia and lack of imagination.

All that does is explain it. It's still true.

As far as D&D is concerned, the Christmas Tree effect predominantly refers to simple numerical bonuses (attack, AC, saves, etc). Having a +5 higher attack/damage/AC is hardly a superpower, and a fighter with only numbers still loses at higher levels.

But, it doesn't require more than two or three actual superpowers in order to compete. That many magic items would only count as a Christmas Tree if we're talking about Charlie Brown's.

virgil wrote:Having a +5 higher attack/damage/AC is hardly a superpower, and a fighter with only numbers still loses at higher levels.

Right, but even if you normalized those bonuses you would still be looking at the Christmas Tree effect, because D&D only lets 'mundane' classes have superpowers through magical items.

The conceptual problem with classes like the rogue and fighter are not numbers. The numbers can be fixed in about an afternoon. Rather, their problem is ability to contribute to the plot in a unique way.

One reason why I don't like Tome material is that they don't fix the fundamental problem of fighters and such being turned into one-trick combat ponies. I mean even if a Tome fighter can outfight a Blackstone Gigant, it still doesn't change the fact that he can't actually affect the plot unless it's specifically tailored to revolve around his ability of 'sword it'.

Which is also why I hate 4E incidentally; adventurers have little recourse in problem-solving unless it's a mundane 1st-level special effect or if it'll be solved if you win the combat minigame. Or the DM just gives the players a fuck-off MacGuffin.

virgil wrote: But, it doesn't require more than two or three actual superpowers in order to compete.

If the adventure gets more crazy then you'll need more superpowers in order to keep up.

Meaning that if a hero has 'just' two or three superpowers from items then they'll fall right back into the 'warriors can't have nice things' trap again. Either they need the Christmas Tree effect or the Green Lantern effect to keep up, but either way they'll become more and more divorced from their origin.

Depending on what you define as the top end of the game this may not be an issue, but games like D&D and Exalted make the top end pretty fucking high. You will need 6 distinct superpowers just to fight a mid-tier demon or dragon.

Wait.

To use your example, the Tome Fighter -can- affect the plot. At the very minimum, he gets social skills beyond Intimidate. And some magic weapon/armor crafting.

The Barbarian basically gets his own mini-horde and can use them for messages or something. Having you own squad of runners and representatives is a nice thing for a PC.

And the Samurai can consult with whatever ancestors happen to be in the area to get some knowledge and once he can ignore DR/Hardness, he has a sideline in a wall-opener and possibly a safecracker. Assuming you're actually using an Asian vibe for the adventure/campaign, the Samurai is also the representative of a noble and disrespecting him is disrespecting the noble. That will definitely influence NPC interactions.

Yes, and notice how those are all MUNDANE abilities. As in, any named low-level character could do that shit.

Like you could combine all of those non-combat abilities together and you could make Lord Ryudo, the Impeccable Blacksmith Guildsman. Which is fine, he's a cool character and all, but he's like a low-tier NPC. Not a protagonist for a game that gets as crazy as mid-high level D&D.

Those abilities (except for the consult ancestor ability) become increasingly inappropriate for dealing with supernatural plots as time goes on without a paradigm shift in how they're used.

Maxus wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7iSVSrg ... re=related

What level would you put the Beast at? I'd say the in the 15-17 range.

Are you serious?

The abilities he demonstrates in that battle are:

• Improved Unarmed Strike - and enough of a strength bonus to break wooden furniture reliably - that's hardness 5, 10hp per inch, so he's probably dealing like 10-20 HP per hit.
• (Possibly) Improved Disarm -or possibly he chances a regular disarm against that thug)
• (Possibly) Improved Grapple - as it looks likely Paris is using Escape Artist to escape his weird twisty attack - but this could just be a special effect of stunning fist or something else
• Flurry of Blows - or potentially just a high enough BAB to get 2 attacks - but note that he only does double attacks - so presumably it's not high enough for him to get 3
• Deflect Arrows (bullets follow the same rules)
• Bluff (feints in combat)
• likely Poison Use - but he could be risking self-poisoning
• Damage resistance - enough to ignore unarmed strikes and nonmagical improvised clubs but not enough to resist Shout.
• Barely enough HP to survive an Empowered and/or Maximized Shout

Going with poorly optimized Core only, and using no spells nor items that's doable, but not perfect (especially on the DR) as a Half-Orc monk 2/BBN 7 with maximum strength.

And it really seems to me that

• Kung Fu Hustle is not a core-only campaign
• the players in the game have optimized a bit
• Kung-fu techniques are likely available as permanent spells in this game

So it's likely that by getting his strength as Enhancement/Inherent Bonuses and/or damage as Greater Magic Fang or a Amulet Tank Top of Mighty Fists , dumpster diving for PrCs, feats, ECL races with spell-likes and equipment (mantleflip-flops of faith) to get DR a clever player can probably get the DR up a few points without too much trouble. Or potentially bring him in at slightly lower level.

However, he is a tough, but seemingly not unbeatable challenge for a pair of PCs whom still get XP for regular Orcs Axe Gang Members, and in D&D 3rd, characters do not get XP for opponents 8 or more levels below them. So we can surmise that Helen and Paris are lower than 9th level, and the Beast is less than 8 levels above them. From the Axe Gang's offer of respect and the pre-fight boasting it certainly seems like the whole gang together cannot take the Beast, which would indicate to me that he has about 8 levels on the Orcs Gang members.

So it seems very likely that he's 9th level or maybe just a bit lower. And as 3rd edition is set up, a 15th-17th level character would compare to him as he does to the typical Axe Gang member. And that's a serious issue - because I seriously don't have a very good frame of reference for what character's who are orders of magnitude more badass than the boss fights in wirework kung fu movies are supposed to be like - that's seriously the realm of crazy-go-nuts folklore and comic book. We're not merely talking Pecos Bill wrasslin' himself a tornado, no we're talking Heracles holding up the Earth for Atlas or the Hulk holding Sakkaar together as it's core explodes at that level. And I'm really not sure I can tell interactive stories about groups of characters like that.

I have to disagree with that.

It goes something like...

The Ax Gang gets their asses kicked en masse by the three kung-fu masters who hide in disguise and don't pick up anything from it. These guys aren't bad. One of them even hurls a giant concrete block into the upper floor of a house. That's pretty crazy.

The three dudes are killed without -too- much trouble by the two battle-musicians.

Who are taken down effortlessly by the landlords. The Lion's Roar thing seems to be a Greater Shout. The speaker is likely maximizing it.

The landlords are actually outclassed by the Beast until they can break out a maximized Shout or Greater Shout. I'm figuring it's a Greater Shout, seeming how it has a range greater than thirty feet.

Not to mention the property destruction all three can cause.

I'd say the initial trio is level 9. Then the musicians would be...ten or so. Making the Tragic Lovers over level 11 and meaning their exploits are known--the Beast recognizes them when he meets them. They recognize him, too. That fits, since levels over 10 are legendary according to the Legend Lore spell and means anyone who wants to can find out. Greater Shout kicks in at level 15 and that seems to be their most powerful trick, so they should be, at least within a couple levels of that.

And the Beast takes the Lion's Roar (likely a successful Fort save there) and comes out okay and still has some reserves after taking a Maximized one. Likely couldn't take another one, even on a successful save.

So, yeah. I can still peg that the Beast as being at level 15. Give or take a level.

I suppose the kid who beats him would be a couple levels higher and have some giant Bigby thing happening...

I believe I may have something of value to add to this. I believe what you are running into here is a breakdown between "Class" and "Source". Class being defined as the literal class a character has chosen as being the best model of the capabilities the character wants to possess. And "Source" being the source of that characters powers. This has been confused a lot because some characters classes give AUTOMATIC access to a particular source, while others give many options for sources, while others give no access to any source at all.

For instance the source of a mages power is "Magic" that's an auto there. The moment you are a Mage you get access to magic as your source because definitionally you had to have it to get the class. Some classes give you many sources to choose from and don't really care what you pick exactly. Like the Tome of Battle classes for instance offering you Magic source, an Ancestral Source, a Divine Source, just lots of options. And some classes like Fighter or Rogue just don't have an AUTOMATICALLY attached source. This doesn't mean that high level characters that -were- those classes should be without sources, it just means they weren't packaged with the class. So Kratos can be a "fighter" with a divine source of power, and Kiera (if you like the Vlad Taltos novels) can be a "rogue" with a magical source of power. The sources as I see them are as follows

Magical: Shazaam
Divine:
Spiritual/Otherworldly: NOTE- Barbarians class write ups and expansions used this occasionally as WOTC figured out they needed a source for higher level abilities.
Ancestral: As in "Something in my blood makes me awesome"
Artifact: As in "I carry something that makes it acceptable that I be generally awesome"
Locational: As in "somewhere there is a place that I'm tapping into that is making me generally awesome"

See! All of these things would make it acceptable that a character could, for instance, walk on water. Whether it's because the character is the only one that can wear the Amulet of Legends (Artifact source) or because they are part Solar (Ancestral source), or just because they're fucking magic (redundant source).

A "Source" needs to be a thing that everyone needs to be assumed to get access to at some point. In fact there are a number of things that I believe characters need to gain access to at certain points in the game which, if followed, would solve huge portions of D&D's problems. Going something like this-


By levels 6-8: Gain access to a source
By levels 10-12: Gain access to great worldly wealth, essentially unlimited funds (Legit Dragon horde! Get a Kingdom! Whatever!)
14-16: Gain access to a tremendously powerful source (can and probably should just be a "level up" of your old one)
18-20: Gain immortality

The beauty of thinking along these lines is that it informs you of when character concepts are going to be unworkable. So if you want to make a Pirate character it HAS to be before 6th level because that character concept is NO LONGER PLAUSIBLE at 9th level. You cannot be "just a really good Pirate" and expect to play in the big leagues. You can turn from a Pirate to a "Pirate who is inhabited by the souls of all the great Pirate Kings" and THEN be legit because now that you have a source it is acceptable that you can walk across water or animate the dead or the varying other useful things adventurers need to do.

So Source. Valuable. Should be implemented.

Maxus wrote:I have to disagree with that.

15th level effects include:

• Trapping someone in an extradimensional prison with a touch.
• Stealing someone's soul.
• Making everything in a 30-foot area your friend.
• Making anyone anywhere do your bidding.
• Causing people to lose control of their body with a touch.
• Stealing all of a person's time.

If he were actually a 15th level character, then any hit he makes should just kill people or at the very least make them unable to fight.

Lago PARANOIA wrote:Depending on what you define as the top end of the game this may not be an issue, but games like D&D and Exalted make the top end pretty fucking high. You will need 6 distinct superpowers just to fight a mid-tier demon or dragon.

I'm not sure whose butt you're pulling that number out of, as you most certainly do not need half a dozen superpowers to fight a mid-tier dragon or demon (assuming normalized numbers).