d20 Action Movie

[Maxus]

d20 Action Movie


Spawned off from the d20 Modern thread.

Let's make a d20 Shtick-based action-movie game.

The ideas thus far are:

-shticks are better to build a character around than stats.

-Races of War combat feats will be used in shticks, but they will not be the only things a shtick does for you. The idea being you can tell the group, "Well, I'm playing a tech-savvy guy who uses heavy weapons" and they'll have an idea of where your character fits in.

-It may be 10 levels, with the scaling feat bonuses put to every other character level. Shtick abilities fill in other levels.

-Characters in smaller parties get more shticks.

-Most characters can use guns of some kind, if only pistols. They basically have to specify otherwise.

-Characters all have Fast Healing, even if it's Fast Healing 1 every three rounds. They're either killed outright or they get better.

-Subject matter for inspiration: Die Hard, Blind Fury, Team Fortress 2, Equilibrium, A-Team, maybe a little Neuromancer in there. James Bond should be in there, too--the villains and henchmen are very shticky.

-Other subject matter: Ocean's Eleven acknowledges the importance of shticks, but the actual set-up of their heist is something you would not be able to pay me to DM.

[Maxus]

Progression looks something like this:

Class Name
d8 HD
4+ Int skill points

Level:	Abilities:
1	Shtick Basic, Feat Benefit
2	Shtick Bonus
3	Feat Benefit
4	Shtick Bonus
5	Feat Benefit
6	Shtick Bonus
7	Feat Benefit
8	Shtick Bonus
9	Feat Benefit
10	Shtick Bonus

Now, you need to decide a primary shtick and a secondary shtick.

The main difference between the two is your primary shtick determines your HD and BAB (which, by the way, should give bonus attacks faster here) and probably skill points.

So there's a difference between being a tech-savvy guy who uses heavy weapons and a heavy weapons guy who has tech skills.

I'm thinking 2 shticks minimum for a character, unless you're actually playing Ocean's Eleven then you can just have one shtick per character or something. If you really want to do a solo game or play high-powered, I suppose it could go up to 5. But that's a lot of stuff to keep track of and I would not envy you.

Right now, I don't know what saves do. Reflex save is about the only one which really fits.

So, shticks. A shtick will list the Primary benefits (that is, what you get if it's your primary shitck), secondary benefits (which you get if you take the shtick, period), and the associated feat(s). Benefits are grouped by number. I'm thinking of ditching Con as an ability score and just letting people use strength or dexterity for endurance and HP and all.

So, here's an example shtick

Big Guy
You're big and strong and tough!
Main: d12 HD, good fort saves, good BAB, Fast Healing 1, (Weapon Proficiencies)

Secondary:
(1) Unarmed Combat Proficiency, Pack Mule,
(2) Just a Flesh Wound: Can negate HP damage once a fight with an immediate action
(3) Improvised Weapon Proficiency, Improved Carrying Capacity (Grapple bonus, too?)
(4) DR increased by 3 + Con or Str mod, Provide Cover to nearby allies and allies behind you.
(5) Fast Healing value is equal to Str or Con mod.
(6) Improvised Weapon Mastery: Once a fight you can just declare what your guy uses the scenery and stuff to do. Like throw someone into a fan or shoot a tank so it explodes or set the airplane's gas trail on fire so the fire catches up to the airplane and BLOW THAT FUCKER UP.

Main: Pick another feat related to being tough and breaking heads, like Iron Will or Hordebreaker or Blitz.
Secondary: Great Fortitude

[Maxus]

Reserved for equipment

[Prak]

-Characters in smaller parties get more shticks.

This is interesting because of it's implied corollary, that characters in larger parties get fewer shticks, meaning that the characters in The Expendables seriously have like one shtick each. Now you may want to instate an "absolute minimum number of shticks" rule, but its interesting to think on none the less.

[Username17]

-Characters in smaller parties get more shticks.

This is interesting because of it's implied corollary, that characters in larger parties get fewer shticks, meaning that the characters in The Expendables seriously have like one shtick each. Now you may want to instate an "absolute minimum number of shticks" rule, but its interesting to think on none the less.

That thing is straight up unplayable, since you'll be in games where the number of players changes, often with little warning. While the basic idea is appealing - that because people have less screen time when there are more players, so their powers should come up less often - this is in fact badwrong. The reality is that with more players there will be more toe stepping. If anything, players should get more schticks to make sure that they have something unique to contribute. But as previously noted, that kind of shit is unmanageable.

If you really want to have some kind of spotlight sharing mechanic in play, you should give out some sort of Narrative Imperative points each session, and divide them up amongst the players present. That way the total number of "That's not how I remember it..." events stays manageable regardless of the number of players, and the players always get a fairish amount of spotlight time.

-Username17

[Sashi]

A modern game will involve a significant amount of shooting people, possibly in the face, with guns. D20 modern makes the mistake of saying “guns are ranged, use dexterity”. In a game with firearms, the man holding a sword looks foolish. And in a game without spell effects, points spent on Wisdom look foolish. This must change, and the way to do it is to examine what people do with guns, and use different stats to allow those things to happen.

Moreover, the weapons table in d20 modern is pathetic and appears to have been created for the express purpose of creating option paralysis. What is the difference between a Glock 20 and a Mastercraft Beretta 92F? +1 purchase DC. Who is purchasing a TEC-9 and setting it to single shot when it’s actually legal to own a Glock 17? You will honestly forget to apply range penalties or track ammo more often than the difference between the Desert Eagle and S&W M29 come up. There are a ridiculous number of options and they just don't matter because in the end you're going to write "Desert Eagle" on your character sheet.

Gun Statistics:
Damage. The amount of damage a gun deals on a hit. Damage is loosely based on a weapon’s size. As in Tome material, you may use a gun of your size in two hands, one size smaller than you in one hand, and two sizes smaller than you in your off hand. (Damage TBD). A standard weapon chassis can have a number of modification packages applied to it that either alter the cost or can be purchases separately and applied with a skill check.
Range Increment. As standard.
Capacity. Basically dependent on weapon size. Bigger weapons either hold more bullets, or the same number of larger bullets.
Firing Mode: Single Shot (SS), Semi Auto (SA), Full Auto (FA), Burst Fire (B).
Recoil. A gun’s recoil is applied as a penalty to attack rolls with the gun.
Penetration. Improved ability to pierce objects and a better chance to overcome anti-ballistic body armor.
Legality. A legality rating generally ranges from -5 (nunchucks, baseball bat) to 5 (high explosives, full-auto weaponry). Most countries require a license for rating 1+ items, and restrict rating 2+ items to the military. Most US airports restrict items rated higher than -6. Action stars can get away with driving a tank down the street.
Cost. How purchasing this gun interacts with player wealth.

What does strength do for me when I’m shooting guns?
Negates recoil. Weapons with high recoil usually deal more damage. This is basically the gun version of a strength bow.
Improves autofire. Autofire is more about keeping the gun pointed in the right direction than aiming. Standard autofire fills a 10’x10’ square with lead. All creatures and objects in the occupied space are allowed a reflex save (DC=10+1/2BAB+STR mod-attack penalties for range increment) for half damage. Autofire uses 3 ammunition per 5’x5’ square. If your strength modifier is lower than the weapon's recoil, you must pass a strength check (DC: 10+Recoil) or lose control of the weapon after using autofire.
What does Constitution do for me when I’m shooting guns?
It helps you survive getting shot at by other people.
What does Dexterity do for me when I’m shooting guns?
It improves accuracy and reduces your chance of being hit. Note that autofire doesn't actually have a to-hit roll.
What does Intelligence do for me when I'm shooting guns?
Nothing. Intelligence applies to explosives.
What does Wisdom do for me when I’m shooting guns?
Wisdom improves your precision. Wisdom allows characters to increase weapon penetration, increase a weapon’s range, and reduce the effects of cover and concealment.
What does Charisma do for me when I’m shooting guns?
Nothing, generally. A bullet doesn’t care how cute you are.[/td][/tr]

[Akula]

Or you reduce the number of stats so that you can clearly say what they each do and how each is relevant.

[Sashi]

If you want to do that, then you go and play Feng Shui or Savage Worlds or something.

This is d20, we have six ability scores and we like it.

[Akula]

If you want to do that, then you go and play Feng Shui or Savage Worlds or something.

This is d20, we have six ability scores and we like it.

Because rolling a d20 means you have to have six statistics and they have to be the ones from DnD. Fuck. That. Shit.

I don't think that having Str and Con as different stats adds anything to the game. I don't think that having "Strength of personality" and "Mental toughness" represented by different things adds anything to the game. So unless you can give good reasons for having this added complexity, then we should reduce the complexity.

[Sashi]

You don't get it, that "we like it" is sarcasm. Like "when I was your age we ate potatoes three times a day and we liked it, we were thankful!" We could get away with three scores: Tough, Fast, Pretty (just so there's something to dump).

But this is d20/D&D/whatever. The point of playing d20 modern is to do modern games while maintaining some familiarity with the D&D system. And for better or for worse, that means 6 stats. If you go fucking with the stats you really should just go and play Feng Shui, it's got your standard skill-based system problems (overreliance on agility, super skills), but it's good.

[Mask_De_H]

We could get away with three scores: Tough, Fast, Pretty

Yes.

(just so there's something to dump).

No.

But this is d20/D&D/whatever. The point of playing d20 modern is to do modern games while maintaining some familiarity with the D&D system. And for better or for worse, that means 6 stats.

Fuck no. We've had long, spergy discussions on why that's not true. 4 stats works if we're tying them into two attacks and two defenses, 3 stats if we work Rock Paper Scissors style.

[Akula]

You don't get it, that "we like it" is sarcasm. Like "when I was your age we ate potatoes three times a day and we liked it, we were thankful!" We could get away with three scores: Tough, Fast, Pretty (just so there's something to dump).

So what you are saying is that when you said this:

If you want to do that, then you go and play Feng Shui or Savage Worlds or something.

This is d20, we have six ability scores and we like it.

That it was utterly facetious and a waste of everyone's time; only there to inflate your own postcount.

But basically, if you want to have a combat centered game, you have to figure out how to have all the stats you want to influence combat. It isn't alright to say that Cha should be useless in shooting, because that is like saying, "We shouldn't have Cha." Make the game simple so that there are no trap options littering the rules.

The point of playing a modern d20 game is to play a modern game where you roll d20s.

[Sashi]

Can we alter the d20 rules so that there are four stats, or no stats, or two stats? Yes.

Should we alter the d20 rules so that the stats are something other than the iconic 6 stats? That's a completely different question.

The point of playing a modern d20 game is to play a modern game where you roll d20s.

See I thought it was to play a game that had significant mindspace overlap with regular d20 D&D (levels, BAB, class abilities, feats, skills, ability scores, possibly spells in some form or another).

I wasn't aware that this d20 Action Movie build thread was a stealth "let's rewrite the d20 rules from the ground up" thread. I'm not even sure I'd get rid of the 6 ability scores even then.

[Sashi]

And just because I'm not shoehorning Charisma into direct mechanical alterations of shooting people in the face doesn't mean I'm deciding Charisma is useless. A charismatic character could provide bardic buffs, and could self-buff with feints and sneak attack. There's almost always someone who wants to play the Bard, and as long as their charming charisma guy abilities aren't irrelevant in combat, it will be fine that guns don't add charisma to damage or something stupid.

[Prak]

there are actually two distinct examples of the charismatic action hero from one of the source materials, Face and Hannibal from the A Team.

[Maxus]

there are actually two distinct examples of the charismatic action hero from one of the source materials, Face and Hannibal from the A Team.

Bullshitting people and shouting encouragements to give bonuses always has a place in an action movie.

"GET TO DA CHOPPA"

And then "WHAT are you idiots thinking? When the Chief hears this, he's going to hit the roof! Don't you morons check to see if there's an ongoing investigation? I've been working on these guys for months and the DAY they invite me to their base, finally, you fools run in and send them going everywhere!"

Pretty soon I'll work on putting up shticks, by the way.

[Username17]

You could keep the mental split to an extent. Charisma, Nerd Abilities, and Perception do not have to occur on the same character. The number one thing you need to drop is Strength, because in the modern era Strength just isn't that good. It's not even the driving force of most melee artists in a modern setting.

But another thing you'll want to do is to get Will Saves out of Perception. In a modern setting protagonist characters simply are good at Will Saves. It doesn't matter if they played by The Rock or Harrison Ford, they simply do not cave in to torture. PCs get a bonus to Will Saves, and other than that Will Saves are simply based on Level. Mooks give in to torture and higher level villains do not.

That leaves Perception pretty lonely, but it's also really important considering that There's Always a Guy In There. So you could either break Perception off into a schtick that a lot of people would take, or leave Perception as everyone's 2nd or 3rd goto stat even when they weren't playing Eagle Eye.

-Username17

[Maxus]

It's a d20 action movie.

What will saves ARE there?

"Roll Will, DC 20 to avoid having a really bad love scene with the female party member who you keep bantering with"

But I can see a way around the damage disparity.

Put most of the damage from equipment--so, say a pistol does 1d8 damage. Then +1 or +2 to up that average. Then you can get stuff like "Anti-personnel ammo: +5 damage on people". And shtick features like "Backstabber: You get +5 damage on people who do not consider you an enemy."

I can still see being the Big Guy as something a character can do. Not the only thing, mind you, but being able to pick someone up in one hand and shrug off some stabbings and a few bullet wounds. Possibly by means of "...Ow, that almost tickled: Once a scene you can flat-out negate a hit."

(wasn't there a Punisher movie where some hugely muscled guy came in and got stabbed and it basically did nothing to him? With opera or something similar as a background music? You can totally tell I only watched a little of this scene as I was passing through the living room.)

[Maxus]

Put up a tentative progression and example shtick. Awaiting the reaming I will get.

To do:

-Need to decide how defense is being handled. Reluctant to use defense bonuses as I remember them. Will look into them later to refresh my memory.

-Decide weapon groups. Will likely use Koumei's from Dungeon Crusade.

-Sleep

[Username17]

If you're doing an action movie, you should embrace action movie physics. The first of which is that action movies generally acknowledge that bullets seriously injure or kill people. And as we know:

Which means that what actually happens is that bullets go whizzing by you and you do not in fact get hit. But at the same time, people run through firing lines and dive for cover and shit. This is because the amount of bullets that can fail to hit you is in some way limited. That's what hit points are. They are points that allow you to not get hit. More accurate shots use up more hit points, and indeed a very accurate shot may actually just plain hit you even if you have hit points remaining.

So first of all, we have hit points and we have injury. You can spend hit points to avoid getting hit, but you can only do that against certain weapons - specifically you can only do that against lethal ones. Which is why people turn to kung fu sometimes when their enemies have a lot of hit points. If you shoot at someone who has hit points they can spend some to not get hit, but if you just punch them, then they can't.

On that note: hit dice. They suck. Get rid of them. Or at least remodel them beyond recognition. Possibly have everyone roll their hit dice at the beginning of every session? Either that or go to a straight quadratic hit point accumulation where you give a more advantageous formula to the characters who are expected to get shot at more.

-Username17

[cthulhu]

Just add a rule that Your strength = your constitution score and any bonus to one effects both, then you're pretty much done re: strength is shit and you want five stats, but having 6 stats is important for being d20.

[Maxus]

Either that or go to a straight quadratic hit point accumulation where you give a more advantageous formula to the characters who are expected to get shot at more.

-Username17

I like this idea, but I can see a problem there:

What's the basis for the scaling? Even 2^10 ends up with a over a thousand hit points by the end. Powers of 3 are even scarier.

I also have a rough idea of how to handle mooks.

I think there should be a difference between mooks, henchmen, and villains. Mooks go down in one hit and tend to be a sort of mobile alarm system, henchmen can act like a miniboss--they have a cool thing they do, like throw knives or use a bigass shotgun or hide-and-strike. Villains tend to be built like PCs. It'll be different from 4e's minion/elite/solo, I promise.

And, normally, combat shouldn't be lethal for the PCs. It DOES take a while to do chargen, after all. A crossfire really can be a trap where -most- people make the save but one guy gets hit in the leg or something.

[Username17]

I like this idea, but I can see a problem there:

What's the basis for the scaling? Even 2^10 ends up with a over a thousand hit points by the end. Powers of 3 are even scarier.

That's exponential. I suggested a Quadratic system, which would be something like this:

(10 + Level) * Level

Which would go like this:

Level	Hit Points
1	11
2	24
3	39
4	56
5	75
6	96
7	119
8	144
9	171
10	200

I think there should be a difference between mooks, henchmen, and villains. Mooks go down in one hit and tend to be a sort of mobile alarm system, henchmen can act like a miniboss--they have a cool thing they do, like throw knives or use a bigass shotgun or hide-and-strike. Villains tend to be built like PCs. It'll be different from 4e's minion/elite/solo, I promise.

That sounds disturbingly like the Minions/Elites/Solos rules. Why have Mooks necessarily go down in one hit? It makes grannies slapping with handbags either make the accomplishments of the heroes look weak or it requires additional caveat rules.

If you just give Mooks zero hit points, then attacks will be free to hit them every time. But you should still give them whatever injury points and armor they happen to have.

-Username17

[Maxus]

Thanks for the refresher. I'd actually forgotten that bit.

Well, mostly, it's saving some space. Eventually there should be a Mook entry that scales the numbers by level so you can plug-and-play.

And you may have it backwards on mooks, Frank. It can take you several tries to hit a mook, but a mook will still die when he's been seriously hit once. Unless the PC doesn't want him to or something so he can set up a more gruesome kill.

Mook/Henchman/Villain thing is basically because that's what happens in action movies. 4e may have realized there's usually three levels of in the villain hierarchy, but they thought "Hur hur hur, BIG NUMBERS WILL BE EXCITING". The concept would likely work if Mooks don't have a shtick (except maybe: Be shot once and die), Henchman have a shtick, and villains have PC-levels of shticks. Or a little above a single PC.

So say you're John McClane in Die Hard 4. Most of the mooks go down in one move. You shot a fire exinguisher to blow one out of the window, you've been doing some stuff you're doing well, you've had a few bantering session with the villain by radio already. Then you meet the villains Kung-Fu Ninja Girlfriend, who has Hand-to-Hand Combat as her shtick. You're John McClane, so you have Big Guy as a shtick so you're not immediately destroyed and even fight back a little. But this Henchman still kicks your ass until you have to retreat and find a way to NOT engage her in hand-to-hand combat.

And the more I think about it, the more I'm sure that's how it should go.

But HP/Damage do need to be decided. Maybe most bullets -do- miss and you lose HP, and a bad failure can get you shot in the ass or leg or shoulder.

[Sashi]

I've been idly entertaining a thought that a lot of D&D spells can actually be re-purposed with "modern" era phlebotinum.

Fireball -> Grenade
Arcane Eye -> RC Spycopter
Teleport -> Private Jet
Create Undead -> Assemble Robot
Spider Climb -> Climbing Harness

It actually works better in an "action movie" trope than "modern", since Bond totally pulls out a climbing harness to scale a wall in one scene, then 10 minutes later "forgets" he has access to such a thing.