Grimoire Spotlight - Magic Items and Wealth

[Ghostwheel]

Everyone sees the problems with wealth as it stands in D&D 3.5; the biggest concern is the x-mas tree effect, but it goes deeper than that. Casters and attackers are completely different in their needs--while attackers need all of the Big 6 (ability score boost, resistance bonus to saves, magic weapons, magic armor, natural armor, deflection armor), casters need just two (ability score boost, resistance bonus to saves) much of the time.

Instead of all the possible shenaniganry that can occur, instead we bring in a variant that standardizes wealth for all characters. A secondary benefit to this is that items are far less tied to character power, since effects that affect the RNG are now tied to character level rather than the enhancement bonus on your sword. Furthermore, rather than having a +4 shocking frost thundering sword of vorpal undead-chopping, the same flaming sword will carry you all the way from level 5 to level 20.

[For Valor]

Attribute bonuses are gross. I mean, I'd rather take an enhancement to all ability scores (a magic property that should be HELLA weak) for +1 to-hit and damage, +1 AC, +1/level HP, and +1 to all saves, than get a +1 weapon or any kind of armor enhancement.

Book of Gears would fit this a lot better, with +1/3 level to ONE ability score, to-hit and damage, AC, SR, CL, saves, and 2 + level for skills, or level for energy resistance.

Then you've got that one table with the infinity signs on it... what's that for? Potions and scrolls?

And then your enhancements and boosts and such are PAINFUL to look at. At level 8, a good weapon enhancement is a weapon made of cold iron... or a weapon that does +2d6 fire damage on a successful hit. At level 14, it's a weapon made of cold iron that ALSO does extra fire damage (+4d6; if you want sonic, it's 4d4). At level 18, it's a weapon that deals +5d6 fire damage, is made of cold iron, and can ALSO change into any other weapon of the same size.

Weak. Honestly, that extra +5d6 fire damage isn't going to provide me with anything. The cold iron MIGHT help me fight angry pixies, and the ability to change my weapon's shape is.... well, useless. If I buy a weapon, it's because I plan on using that weapon. There's little to no point in changing the weapon up.

A smart kid would the Boost Enhancements and use ONLY those, since the boosts with a minimum bonus requirement are far better than the rest (+4 enhancement for ignore armor on AC? Sure. Constitution damage? Damn right. An extra attack as part of a full attack!? HELL YES!).

Then there are those armor immunities... getting immunity to rogues and crits is, well, stupid. The spell resistance's granularity is weird (I mean, it's +2 every 4 levels. Just do +1/2 levels), as is the energy resistance. Honestly, man, make this shit scale to charlevel.

Finally, why are there +5's at level 20? Honestly, I want my magic items to cap out somewhere around level 17-18 (tome weapon enhancement: 18/3=+6, which is as far as she goes). So pull the enhancement cap down.

Hell, just use the Book of Gears.

[Ghostwheel]

Why is 1/3 better than 1/4? Would it make the player feel more special, more powerful, more uber? Remember, I'm scrapping the whole CR system and using a table for the spine of monsters (HP, AC, Saves, attack rolls, DPR, etc) so giving characters another +1 to attack and +1d6 damage would actually do very little beyond forcing me to rewrite the AC and HP columns at level 3 and above. I'm not even sure of the point to it.

Also, I don't think it's right to "charge" a character an item just to be on the RNG; meleers should get that for free in the same way that casters are getting bonuses to their DCs for "free". Rather than having to have items for the Big Six, forcing characters to "waste" items on it, it's better to give them as part of the character chassis, allowing for items that do mostly fun things, be they the flaming greatsword of Melrosnaw that BURNS enemies and might do something else that's awesome or the archaic gothic plate found in the ruins of Belniss that not only protects the bearer but can also freeze enemies who score a successful hit once per encounter. You get the idea.

Keep in mind that the primary way to deal damage to monsters is through damage. We're removing save-or-dies, turning them into "you take massive damage now". We're nerfing save-or-sucks. While +5d6 might not be much of a big deal to a character who only has one big hit per round, if someone is playing a swordsage who's using Time Stand Still paired with Raging Mongoose and TWF, under the grimoire system they're going to have something like 16 attacks, and if 8 of them hit that's 40d6 extra damage, and when monsters have all of 400 HP by level 20 an extra 140 damage is a considerable chunk.

The infinity signs are because you can have as many of that level of items up to your cap of 5 magical items.

I'd put cold iron as a common material, like silvered. Insert adamantine and I'd say yes. And you don't have to have the change-shaping thingy; I want to work on the crafting rules a bit more, but in essence virtually any character, with enough time and experience, should be able to craft any non-expendable item.

For the spell resistant armor, I actually took the formula out of the DMG, though I should probably allow it to give SR equal to 5+HD.

For the enhancement bonuses at level 20, it's because I want them to be there, and there isn't really a good reason not to give them at the point where you're about to go epic level (though I've got rules for replacing that mess as well).

[For Valor]

1) It's 1/3 because your best magic item benefits come at level 18. Having a capstone magic item ability of "AN EXTRA +1 TO HIT AND DAMAGE" is stupid. When I hit level 20, I want to be excited about turning into an 8-legged dragon, not having +5 on my sword instead of +4.

It's just annoyingly anticlimactic.

2) You don't feel like it's right to "charge" characters magic items to stay on the RNG...? Alright, then get rid of magic items. If you're not planning on making magic items an integral part of the challenge-determination process, then expect every player to use magic items and do BETTER THAN YOU PREPARED FOR in combat. Or you could make magic items part of the determining process, so that your players don't get as much of a benefit.

3) Crafting needs to be worked on... yes...

4) SR is nicer as 10 + .5HD. Smoother progression--less ridiculous at high levels and more useful at lower levels

5) Again, if the game ends at 20, you should be getting super cool and awesome capstone abilities. "+1 more to hit" is overshadowed completely. And in a series of 20 levels, well... you only get to use that +5 sword for one level. Hell, you don't really get to use it for any real duration, since there's no longer any leveling to do and level 20 is nonsense.

If you like the idea of having bonuses for epic level... well, 1/3 level gives you your final bonus at level 18 (So you have 3 levels to play with it, and it isn't overshadowed by your capstones), and you actually go up a bonus when you hit level 21, so epic level is still separated--via magic items--from levels 20 and below.

[Ghostwheel]

There are no epic levels. Gone. Replaced. Kaput. The rest of what you've said has amounted to, "I don't like it," without giving an actual logical/rational/cogent/good reason as to why it should be changed. You've said to do things, but haven't given a good reason as to why they should be changed.

[Sashi]

Why is 1/3 better than 1/4? Would it make the player feel more special, more powerful, more uber?

Yes.

[Ghostwheel]

I understand that, but having done the work I have and it making all of a +1 difference in the end by level 20, I don't think it matters enough to call for a change.

That said, thank you for chiming in

[For Valor]

erm... address the rest of the arguments, please... seriously, if you're going to ignore my points, at least say so to my face. Going "I'm not doing this!!!!!!!!!" and then spinning on your heel and blatantly giving the middle finger to everything else is just assholery...

[Ghostwheel]

I'm sorry if you feel offended; I figured that we'd gone over the reasons that we would agree on, and that I had mentioned that I would change, and the ones we disagree on we were going to continue disagreeing on and more conversation on them would yield little. Still, if it matters so much I'd be happy to respond to your points. You can accept them or not, but unless you give reasons that correspond and resonate to my point of view and the source by which most of my decision-making is driven, you're not going to find me very pliable.

So, the points:

1. No. First, you get a bunch of capstones at level 20 as far as items go with things leveling off at +5 (or +10 in one case) at that level. Other capstones are provided by class abilities and a special epic "progression" of sorts on which I plan to expand in later showcases.

2. I do effectively remove items as an integral part of staying on the RNG. The rest of the items that are left rarely increase straight vertical power, and instead give options (many of the items in Magic Item Compendium promote this option).

3. Yes. Crafting. Work. Or just say that characters can build whatever they want that they could equip if the DM gives them enough time. I don't really see a problem with that, since characters are limited to a certain number of items of a certain level, so building more items won't give a character more power absolutely.

4. That falls off the RNG. 5+HD is fine to me.

5. Epic progression. Mentioned this earlier. Look forward to a showcase of it.

[For Valor]

So you removed magic items from staying on the RNG. Which means your players will be stocked up on magic items and will destroy the opposition. THEN apparently 11-20 falls od the RNG, but 6-25 is far nicer... I think I see the problem, here. You do't know how math works.

[TarkisFlux]

So you removed magic items from staying on the RNG. Which means your players will be stocked up on magic items and will destroy the opposition. THEN apparently 11-20 falls od the RNG, but 6-25 is far nicer... I think I see the problem, here. You do't know how math works.

FV, your durrr is showing. You should get that checked

11-20 doesn't keep up with level progression. You start off with decent SR and end with a joke SR where a caster a level lower than you rolls a 1 and still pierces your SR. 6-25 gives you an extremely mediocre SR where a dude your level has to roll a 5 to pierce your SR, and that doesn't change as you level (barring feats or options that may or not even be applicable). One of these requires people your level to still make a roll and thus is still on the RNG, and it's not the one that you seem to think it is.

[Ghostwheel]

Shtuff

What he said.

[For Valor]

Waitaminute....

Ladies and gentlemen, I think I just learned how SR works. Again. I was under the impression it goes by spell level... well, fuck. I don't know what's wrong with me.