The Gaming Den

From the "Why Warlocks are Weak" thread, I amassed the following list:

* EB only goes to 9d6 damage without vitrolic blast.
* Have to take certain invocations to maintain playable at higher levels
*few options is not an acceptable trade off for unlimited use
*special abilities (energy resistance, damage reduction) are at embarrassingly low levels when you get them and, IIRC, don't improve much
*They spam embarrassingly low damage endlessly as their big shtick.
*A Minor Globe of Invuln. will make you immune to that damage.
* Most modifiers to that little damage are either so minor you don't care, have terrible (non-scaling) save DCs or both.
*They get fewer "spells" known than the frigging Sorcerer, and with an even smaller selection
*Of those, some are plain crap, and many don't really benefit from the at-will thing. Examples: self-only buff that lasts all day, "Duration: Concentration" and the like
*The few good combinations they can pull off, the Wizard can do better and (usually) earlier, and still cast other useful spells. Getting to add CL *Cold damage each round to the Black Tentacles is not a valid pay-off.
*If you even care about making your at-will damage trick good, you need to jump through hoops (HF Warlock, Racial Bloodline Levels, the Soulmeld Feat, a non-CA Blast Shape (Eldritch Glaive), Quicken SLA...)
*The DR and ER are flat-out insulting, and the FH is only useful if you are in a game that lacks wands of CLW
*They need more feats than they have, and they need more skills than they have
*They have maybe five PrCl choices and nearly all of them suck balls
*Secondly, almost all their powers that have out of combat utility are nerfed so that you can't get any benefit for having the ability to spam them.
*Like any Cha-based arcana caster, you need a high CHA which (outside of your class abilities doesn't do much - you don't get more skill points like the wizard or even a higher will save / spot check). You can have a bonus on Diplomacy checks instead, which will not quite counteract the likely RP penalties of being a warlock i.e. everyone possibly wanting to burn you at the stake.
*Even from Cha, benefit is relatively lower as there is no increase in number of powers known (flexibility), only save DCs and a few tangential effects like Dark Ones' Own Luck.
*Of their limited options, most will probably have to be spent upgrading the eldritch blast via essence or blast shape invocations.
*No races with significant synergy with the class (e.g. nothing with favoured class- warlock, and Cha bonuses for PC races are rare).
*The level-1 trap option (Hideous Blow) I think deserves special mention - a Concentration check required to use like any SLA, and the power makes actually harder with the Eldritch Blast harder.
*They did escape the normal proviso/kick to the groin with regard to use of metamagic feats on spontaneous effects - since they're not capable of using metamagic normally at all.
*Take Black Tentacles. Awesome spell, having it at will should be even more awesome, since you can fill a room, sculpt walls, or re-net stragglers. But it turns out that it's way less exciting as a level 11 ability than a level 7 one. Too many grapple checks are too high by that point.
*Lower level abilities must be usable through all 20 levels to be viable as a choice.

What ways would you say you would fix this? They do not have to be consistent, and balance point of the ideas do not matter. Any fix is allowed as an idea. The main point though, is that this is not tome, and invocations are the idea going in. This means the spherelock, while a nice idea, is not a solution.

Please do not thread-jack this with a random rules discussion like the other thread. Instead, if an argument comes up, create another thread.

Unoriginal

1. Eldritch Blast does 1d6 damage per caster level.
2. Eldritch Blast may be added to a weapon.
3. Bonus invocations based on charisma bonus.
4. Charisma bonus added to damage.
5. Multiple attacks per full round action.

Original

1. "Contract" that gives you a set of invocations (so basically like spheres, but they are actual invocations, of the least/lesser/greater/dark variety) and then you choose extras on top of it.

2. As you level up, your lower invocations become a swift action to cast.

3. Every invocation gives a permanent bonus and an in-battle use. For example, "Fell Flight" would give you permanent flight and in-battle feather fall. No, I didn't look at the balance in that in-battle power. It is an example.[/list]

handful of ideas here:

• Base abilities off of Int. I know, int bonuses are as rare as cha bonuses, if not more so. But hear me out. It can be justified through flavour as them gaining more power as they study their heritage/contract/the planes more. Also, it makes the tiefling a decent race for them, which it currently isn't (+2 dex and int, -2 cha).
• More invocations known, invocations more quickly gained, invocations not permanent choices. First, you add 2 or 3 invocations known at each level. Still not great, but it at least allows a first level warlock to have "Offense, Defense, Utility" from the get go. Then you allow extra invocations for high ability score, maybe not one per mod, but not much less. (7 invocations at will at first level's a bit much. Hell, I'll admit even five would be pushing it...) Maybe 1 invocation per 3 mod. pts. (so 10-15: +0, 16-21: +1, 22-27:+2). I don't know though. Hell, you could go with a 1:1 mod:invoc and only tack on a single additional inherent invoc. each level. Then you allow warlocks to change invocations on the fly through a lengthy ritual, and possibly in the presence of great amounts of demonic energy as an easter egg benefit. I'd say two hours to swap out one invoc. with maybe a better return on time investment as you level. In the presence of chaotic and evil energy, they can swap out, say, 1 invoc. per three rounds in faint, 1 per round in moderate, 2 per round in strong, and 3 per round in overwhelming auras. Or something.
• More Invocations. Seriously. They need a lot more. Spells are a good place to start, and themes can help. With enough invocations, you could even use separate levels of a given spell as invocs. practically straight across.
• Abilities more closely tied to source. There should be a Vrock Spore eldritch blast. There should be an Eldritch Blast invocation that allows you to rend armour like a bebilith. There should be at least one invocation per demon. At Least. Also, as Warlocks are possibly tied to things other than demons, there need to be themed sets for other types. Ever type of celestial should inspire an invocation. There should be some dragon inspired invocations. Slaad themed, devil themed, fae themed, far realms themed. Maybe at a certain level you choose what kind of warlock you are. Maybe it can be left un-mechanically specified and someone can seriously channel demon, devil, celestial, slaad and inevitable powers all at the same time. But, if type gets specified, then the Alignment Aura invocation swapping needs to depend on a claimed aura. So a celestial warlock can swap invocs in a Good aura, slaad warlocks in chaos, etc.
• Eldritch Blast's spell level equivalency needs to scale, or it needs to not be a Sp. Like. Hell, what fucking spell does it mimic? None! It should probably just be supernatural. Hell, maybe some invoc.s are supernatural, some are spell like. Is there anything that says a su ability can't behave like a spell?

First, keep in mind that a few people here made variant Warlocks. Kaelik made one or two, and CeilingCat made the legendary "Warlock that doesn't suck" that brought me here from the WotC boards. Where they would still be bitching about it if it weren't for the "Kill off all the 3e fans" thing. If I were to do it, I'd basically rip Bayonetta off, so I'm not sure people want that.

Anyway, let's look at some of these... basically, the answers are obvious: give more selections (both more to choose from and more actual choices), make all invocation choices equally good (or as close as you can manage) and just flat-out make Flight etc. come online automatically, as opposed to "You're a sucker not to take this". If Eldritch Blast is a Standard action, make it level*d6 Your Mum damage before adding essences and stuff to it. Or figure out an acceptable damage amount to make it an Attack action. At any rate, make it (Su). Make abilities actually benefit from the At-Will thing.

A big question is deciding what the fuck you want them to actually do. Because that's not at all obvious. Is the Eldritch Blast supposed to be your main combat action, or a weird niche action you can fall back on? Are you supposed to feel like a spellcaster, a Demon, or one of the X-Men? When you're in combat, are you murderating foes like a Rogue, tying up foes like a Wizard, or something else? Is the Warlock playing for long fights or short ones?

If you are going to keep the "at will casting" thing at all, what is the "point" of being able to cast unlimitedly? Is it to be able to layer ever increasing penalties on enemies? Is it to set up kiting maneuvers where you wear enemies down? Is it to Johnny Appleseed the universe into a torturous hell dimension?

Socially speaking, what is the Warlock supposed to be? Are they supposed to be a secretive murder machine who avoids revealing themselves to the populace? Are they supposed to be Charismatic mage lords who gradually call to themselves an army of Orcs?

-Username17

FrankTrollman wrote:A big question is deciding what the fuck you want them to actually do. Because that's not at all obvious. Is the Eldritch Blast supposed to be your main combat action, or a weird niche action you can fall back on? Are you supposed to feel like a spellcaster, a Demon, or one of the X-Men? When you're in combat, are you murderating foes like a Rogue, tying up foes like a Wizard, or something else? Is the Warlock playing for long fights or short ones?

If you are going to keep the "at will casting" thing at all, what is the "point" of being able to cast unlimitedly? Is it to be able to layer ever increasing penalties on enemies? Is it to set up kiting maneuvers where you wear enemies down? Is it to Johnny Appleseed the universe into a torturous hell dimension?

Socially speaking, what is the Warlock supposed to be? Are they supposed to be a secretive murder machine who avoids revealing themselves to the populace? Are they supposed to be Charismatic mage lords who gradually call to themselves an army of Orcs?

-Username17

Yeah, I mentioned this as well in the other thread, though not in quite as much detail. The reason the warlock sucks is that whoever designed it had no clear idea of what they were trying to accomplish.

To give a solid example of what I am talking about, let's consider the idea of a Warlock being the kind of Akuma that smells black roses and aspires to being a Demon Lord or Archdevil of the likes of Dispater or Pazzuzu. Presumably the salient abilities would be Charisma based, and the character would be expected to be worshiped rather than reviled. The character is expected to at all times feel like a Demon Lord of a level relevant to his interests. In short, the entire feel of the class is very much supposed to be like that of the True Fiend, but Caster Edition. And by "Caster" I mean something that feels like a Caster through all the levels - like a Fire Mage does. And they can probably be a bit better than True Fiends, because K and I were pretty conservative when we wrote those classes.

Warlock, Fiendish Royalty Edition

Every so often, you get people born who are totally destined for greatness and leadership positions in the lower planes. Maybe they were blessed at birth by Demon Princes or born under a foul constellation. But for whatever reason, they will gradually accumulate power and become dark lords if left unchecked. This doesn't mean that they are bad people or even Evilly Aligned, but it does mean that cultists and even actual fiends will follow them to Hell. Or in Hell. Or the Abyss, depending. It also means that just by living they become a target for rival fiendish factions, whether they've figured out what they want to represent as a faction or not.

These people are called Warlocks, and they tend to have an extremely short life, getting cut down by Orcus cultists or some damn thing unless they go out and put a stop to that shit by proactively eliminating threats, gathering power, and raising an army. In short: those of them that survive to adulthood usually do so by becoming adventurers and stabbing things in the face.

Level	BAB	Fort	Ref	Will	Special
1	+1	+2	+2	+2	Eldritch Blast, Spellcaster, Basic Invocations, Invocation
2	+2	+3	+3	+3	Commanding Presence, Invocation
3	+3	+3	+3	+3	See the Unseen, Invocation
4	+4	+4	+4	+4	Energy Resistance, Better Invocations, Invocation
5	+5	+4	+4	+4	Fiendish Luck, Invocation
6	+6/+1	+5	+5	+5	Leadership, Invocation
7	+7/+2	+5	+5	+5	Wings, Invocation
8	+8/+3	+6	+6	+6	Damage Reduction, Even Better Invocations, Invocation
9	+9/+4	+6	+6	+6	Eldritch Storm, Invocation
10	+10/+5	+7	+7	+7	Immortality, Land Lord, Invocation
11	+11/+6/+6	+7	+7	+7	Open Gateway, Invocation
12	+12/+7/+7	+8	+8	+8	Reign of Terror, Special Invocations, Invocation
13	+13/+8/+8	+8	+8	+8	Compelling Ideology, Invocation
14	+14/+9/+9	+9	+9	+9	Planar Survival, Invocation
15	+15/+10/+10	+9	+9	+9	Fast Healing, Invocation
16	+16/+11/+11/+11	+10	+10	+10	Genesis, Absurd Invocations, Invocation
17	+17/+12/+12/+12	+10	+10	+10	Mastery of Space, Invocation
18	+18/+13/+13/+13	+11	+11	+11	Master of Time, Invocation
19	+19/+14/+14/+14	+11	+11	+11	Invulnerability, Invocation
20	+20/+15/+15/+15	+12	+12	+12	Total Victory, Invocation

• Hit Die: d8
  Skills: 6 + Int Bonus per level: Appraise, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Knowledge (Any), Listen, Move Silently, Ride, Search, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Speak Language, Spellcraft, Spot, Survival, Swim, Use Magic Device

Armor and Weapon Proficiencies: A Warlock is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, as well as light, medium, and heavy armors, but not with shields.

Eldritch Blast (Su): As an attack action, a Warlock can fire off a bolt of raw magical energy. This is a ranged touch attack that has a short range. It inflicts 1d6 plus 1d6 for every 2 levels of magic damage.

Spellcaster: A Warlock is considered to be a Spellcaster with a caster level equal to her level. The Save DC of the Warlock's Invocations is always 10 + 1/2 Level + Charisma Modifier. The Warlock is also a spellcaster for purposes of activating magic items, and is considered to have all Cleric and Sorcerer spells on her list from the Abjuration, Conjuration, Enchantment, and Evocation schools.

Invocations (Sp): A Warlock gains one Invocation per level, and all Invocations can be used at will. Using an Invocation is always a Standard Action, and is a spell-like ability. At first, a Warlock may draw from the Basic Invocations list. From 4th level on, they may take from the Better Invocations list. At 8th level they get Even Better Invocations. At 12th level they get to take Special Invocations. At 16th level and above they get Absurd Invocations. I the spell level of a Invocation is at all important, it is 1 for a Basic, 3 for a Better, 5 for an Even Better, 7 for a Special, and 9 for an Absurd Invocation.

Commanding Presence (Su): From 2nd level on, a Warlock gains an Enhancement bonus to Charisma equal to 1/3 of their Level (round up). In addition, their mere presence is commanding and inspiring to fiends and cultists. They get a +2 circumstance bonus on all checks to influence the attitude of any creature or group of creatures that would be favorably impressed by an Evil Brand.

See the Unseen (Su): A 3rd level Warlock sees invisible and ethereal creatures and objects as if they were normally visible to physical observation.

Energy Resistance (Su): Starting at 4th level, the Warlock has ER equal to their Level against Fire and Cold damage.

Fiendish Luck (Su): A 5th level Warlock is marked for greatness. Once per day and once per night, they may add their Charisma Bonus to a Saving Throw or check. This is not an action, and they may be declared after the roll has been made.

Leadership: At 6th level, the Warlock gains a [Leadership] feat as a bonus feat.

Wings (Ex): At 7th level, the Warlock has wings grow out of her back. Despite the fact that these wings are very small, and barely big enough to be a fashion accessory, the Warlock can fly at twice their land movement rate with Good maneuverability with them.

Damage Reduction (Ex): At 8th level, the Warlock gains DR of Level/Metal.

Eldritch Storm (Sp): A 9th level Warlock can create a storm of destructive magic as a standard action. Doing this inflicts 1d6/level of magic damage to all things within a 20' burst. The Eldritch Storm has Medium range, and allows a Reflex Save to halve the damage.

Immortality (Ex): A Warlock who makes it to 10th level never ages and cannot die of old age.

Land Lord: A Warlock gains Land Lord as a bonus feat at 10th level.

Basic Invocations

• Spooky Noises [Sonic] [Fear]. Any number of targets within short range make a Will Save or become shaken for 1 hour.
• Doom Curse 1 Target/Level within medium range suffers a -2 unnamed penalty to attack rolls, saving throws, and skill checks for 1 hour.
• Weaken Single Target within Medium Range must make a Fortitude Save or suffer 2d4 of Strength damage.
• Bonds of Shadow All creatures within a 10' burst within medium range must make a Reflex Save or become entangled.
• Passing Sands Any number of targets within short range must make a Fortitude Save or become fatigued.

Better Invocations

• Dazing Burst [Mind Affecting] All creatures within a 20' burst within Medium range must make a Willpower save or be dazed for 1 round.
• Demoralize [Fear] Any Number of targets within Medium Range must make a Willpower test or become shaken for 1 hour.
• Over Awe [Compulsion] [Mind Affecting] All creatures within Short Range within a cone area must make a Willpower save or have their attitude improved to at worst Indifferent. Affected creatures cease hostilities and do not start them unless someone else throws the first punch. Also they feel compelled to hear the Warlock out long enough for the Warlock to try old fashioned diplomacy.
• Poison Soul [Poison] One target within medium range must make a Fortitude save or suffer 2d4 damage to Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution.
• Stop Heart [Death] One target within Short range must make a Fortitude save or take damage equal to half their hit points this round and next round.
• Grip of Winter [Cold] All creatures within a Medium ranged Cone suffer 2d6 of Cold Subdual Damage, Fortitude for half. Creatures that suffer subdual damage in this way also suffer Frost Bite.
• Shadow Bind [Darkness] All creatures within a 20' burst within medium range who are touching their own shadow (such as most creatures that are on the ground), must make a Reflex Save or be entangled and unable to leave their square for 1 minute.

And so on and so on.

-Username17

By Short Range you mean.. Close?

And where's the rest past L10 such as the Mastery and Invulnerability?

My guess is that, while totally viable as a playable class, it was whipped up just as an example and, not needing to actually complete it, Frank just copped out halfway through in a funny way.

Koumei wrote:My guess is that, while totally viable as a playable class, it was whipped up just as an example and, not needing to actually complete it, Frank just copped out halfway through in a funny way.

Wow. Frank just shitting out excellence... LOL

.. half excellence. Still waiting for the rest.