Skill Folding

[JonSetanta]

This concept groups multiple skill functions within a single label, reducing the number of skills overall. Perhaps too few though.

Ranks are added in groups as if they were skills themselves.

There is intentional crossover between groups. No bonus is gained from crossover.


COMBAT
Bluff
Heal
Jump
Ride
Intimidate
Spot
Listen
Iaijutsu Focus (OA)
Martial Lore


DECEPTION
Bluff
Disguise
Hide
Intimidate
Forgery
Perform
Sleight of Hand


EVADE
Balance
Tumble
Hide
Move Silently
Escape Artist
Jump


TOOL
Appraise
Disable Device
Open Lock
Sleight of Hand
Search
Craft
Use Rope
Use Magic Device/Use Psionic Device


SENSE
Spot
Listen
Search
Sense Motive
Concentration


STUDY
Concentration
Knowledge
Forgery
Decipher Script
Use Magic Device/Use Psionic Device
Language (Write)
Autohypnosis
Spellcraft/Psicraft
Truespeak

CULTURE
Appraise
Diplomacy
Perform
Gather Information
Language (Speak/Write)
Profession
Heal
Handle Animal
Ride


WILD
Jump
Swim
Climb
Run
Survival
Tumble
Balance


SOCIAL
Sense Motive
Diplomacy
Perform
Intimidate
Bluff
Gather Information
Language (Speak)
Profession

[virgil]

Iron Heroes has something nearly identical. The main difference was that each class was only allowed to access to a certain number of groups, but could spend points in individual skills if they wanted to (outside of their group, of course).

The groups were as follows:
Academia: Appraise (Int), Concentration (Con), Decipher Script (Int), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (Int), and Speak Language (none).
Agility: Balance (Dex), Escape Artist (Dex), and Tumble (Dex).
Athletics: Climb (Str), Jump (Str), and Swim (Str).
Mysticism: Concentration (Con), Decipher Script (Int), Spellcraft (Int), and Use Magic Device (Cha).
Perception: Listen (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), and
Spot (Wis).
Robbery: Disable Device (Int), Forgery (Int), Open Lock (Dex), and Sleight of Hand (Dex).
Social: Bluff (Cha), Diplomacy (Cha), Gather Information (Cha), and Intimidate (Cha).
Stealth: Hide (Dex) and Move Silently (Dex).
Theatrics: Bluff (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Perform (Cha), and Sleight of Hand (Dex).
Wilderness Lore: Handle Animal (Cha), Ride (Dex), Survival (Wis), and Use Rope (Dex).

An example was the Archer, who got Agility, Athletics, and Perception as his class skill groups (and 6+Int skill points).

One thing it also did different were the Knowledge & Perform skills. You had to choose a specific iteration when you bought ranks in either, as normal. The difference lie in expanding to other versions of the same skill, where a single skill point in the other version of Knowledge/Perform automatically gave you the same number of ranks as the primary skill. So it would cost the normal 6 skill points to have 6 ranks in Knowledge (local), but it would only cost 8 points to have 6 ranks in Knowledge (local, arcana, geography), and as you leveled and put more points into Local, the other two would automatically upgrade to be of the same rank.

[JonSetanta]

Thanks, I'll check out Iron Heroes. I know nothing about it.

[KevinBlaze]

Makes stating faster if you mean you do something like rank the overarching categories.

It adds some complexity however as people who want to rank Heal care automatically about how handle animal, ride, and etc work underneath Culture, or all the Combat tag skills if ranking combat.

[Psychic Robot]

Thanks, I'll check out Iron Heroes. I know nothing about it.

It was written by Mike Mearls. It also happens to be terrible.

[Sashi]

Iron Heroes used the skill groups as a "class skills" system. If you have the athletics group you can spend one point in "Athletics" and get a rank in Climb, Jump, and Swim. If you don't, you have to spend ranks in them individually.

In terms of attempts to solve the 3E skill system without just starting over, it's OK, or at least an OK kernel of an idea. Since it is a Mearls creation the implementation is fairly crap (The skill monkey class literally gets more skill points than it's possible to spend).

[virgil]

Iron Heroes doesn't really need more work than Tome (I've got several class fixes) does to skate by, in my experience; do simple stuff like remove the caster monsters and be sparse with the ones with a list of spell-likes.

As for the skill system, I don't see anything wrong with the direction it took. The skill monkey class most assuredly does not get more points than is possible to spend. I had one player build for Intelligence and a trait that gave human bonus skill points, and he was still trying to get all of the skills he wanted while leaving some behind.

The skill challenges, however, is a different story. It's not terrible, but it could've used some streamlining.

AKA, if you're going to call something crap, give an idea as to why. At least more than a fly-by "it svcks!" (even a link to one of the old threads that talked about it would do).

[Username17]

Every part of Iron Heroes is shit. It's fractally retarded, where every portion of it is just as wrong as the whole. It's quite an achievement.

Where to start? The Magic System is completely FUBAR. Wholly and completely. The spells have no power guidelines that make any sense and the primary "balancing" mechanic is that you run an increasing risk of having your character explode in a real and permanent fashion by casting a spell "of your level" as you rise in levels. And you seriously get lower level spells in your secondary categories, which become more level divergent as your own level rises. There is no way to fix that morass.

Next, there is no class balance. At all. Even in Hong's "fixes" he admits that the Thief is inferior by design. Which doesn't even begin to address the fundamental problem with the fact that some classes have abilities that inherently synergize (like how he berserker gets bigger beat downs for inflicting damage) and other classes have abilities that anti-synergize (like how the archer gets better Full Attack actions for spending move actions).

And finally (for this post), the authors think that the fact that characters can permently gimp themselves by taking abilities that advance themselves in the short run is a feature. And they seriously don't have a fucking clue as to what the trap options even are.

It's a clusterfuck of ultimate super fail. It has infinite loops that require one feat to be used as intended. It has feats that literally do nothing. It has feats that are in all ways superior to other feats that are not prereqs for them. It has it all. Every possible thing you could do to be wrong while designing a d20 hack is something that Iron Heroes fucking rubs on itself. And we haven't even gotten to the fact that the monsters appear to have been given stats via the expediency of a dart board.

-Username17

[virgil]

Thank you, Frank. That's the kind of disapproval I like to see, and I seriously do not mean that in a sarcastic way.

[Sashi]

I forgot that the Thief only gets half of the skill groups, instead of all of them. So I should say that it's possible for a thief to overflow his skill points through multiclassing, which doesn't really cost much since you basically just reduce your Social mastery.

One reason it's crap is because the extreme efficiency of investing in your skill groups plus the fact that every singe class gets far more skill points than they have skill groups makes whatever your skill groups are basically mandatory. Instead of saying that a class has 3 skill groups and 6+int skill points, they could just say that the class has automatic training in those groups and 3+int skill points and that would be objectively better because it would fix the "multiclassing for all the skill groups" problem.

The other problem is that Iron Heroes does let the Weapon Master be the diplomat by removing "cross class" skills, but it actually amplifies the "haves vs. have-nots" problem by making your skill access a multiple of skill groups x skill points, instead of just linearly dependent on skill points.

[virgil]

Multiclassing for additional skill groups is alright, but it will hurt the number of skill points you get. Also, automatic training is essentially the same thing in terms of effects because you can multiclass to get that benefit too. Besides, multiclassing for skill points is at a debatable cost because feat masteries are relatively valuable.

[Sashi]

Getting a single new skill group lets that skill point count for at least two skills. And if you're a thief you already get Athletics and Stealth, so it's more like at least four skills. Multiclassing from Thief to Hunter for the Wilderness Lore mastery is seriously a loss of 2 skill points because the one point invested in Wilderness lore is the equivalent to 4 Thief skill points. And in practice you're actually going to be an Executioner with 16 INT who multiclasses into Thief and Man-At-Arms who has full points in nearly everything they care about.

Part of the problem is just that the 3E skill system is crap. It kind of works in the sense of physical skills like jump being correctly representative of what a "normal" human (10 in all stats and no skill ranks) can do, but in terms of game effects it doesn't actually know what it's supposed to do. Ignoring the fact that a dwarf fighter with 8 int seriously has 1 skill point, the game literally says that things like engaging in conversation is optional (diplomacy, bluff, sense motive). The iron heroes system actually manages to increase the possible difference between the haves and have nots in terms of skill training.

[virgil]

As I said before, multiclassing for skill points is alright. The hampered feat mastery progression is a real cost to worry about for any advantage.

It frankly isn't that bad when the bottom bar is raised noticeably higher, because skills aren't like spells where having twice as many makes you four times as good. The disparity of breadth in skills is nothing compared to the general breadth disparity between a full-caster and Tome Samurai (for example).

[Sashi]

Certain masteries being completely irrelevant is a different kettle of fish. But a Thief is totally fine setting his social progression back by 2 levels in order to multiclass into Executioner and man at arms for more skills and more face stabbination.

[JonSetanta]

Maybe I should allow double-stacking of skill point investments, allowing half-rank bonus for the "second time around" to stack with the first set of ranks. These double-stacked ranks would count as Competence bonus.

For instance, investing normally gives Level + 3 ranks in a skill.
Once those ranks are full for a level, a character would then invest as many as desired, up to the normal maximum, but only count as (Level + 3) / 2.

[virgil]

Setting your Social progression on fire and prolonging the gain of their higher level class abilities takes away from some of the major reasons for even being a thief for what is arguably a debatable advantage in skills.

@sigma999: Increasing the maximum is largely a bad idea, as the difference between skilled and unskilled is bad enough as you level. This goes doubly so when this happens at the expense of additional skills.

[angelfromanotherpin]

Skill groups are an acceptable part of a skills fix. The advantage it has over a more reductionist version of skill consolidation is that you get to keep using the same skill names printed on a normal character sheet and referenced in the Monster Manual statblocks.

[JonSetanta]

@sigma999: Increasing the maximum is largely a bad idea, as the difference between skilled and unskilled is bad enough as you level. This goes doubly so when this happens at the expense of additional skills.

It would be more of an NPC choice, specializing in a select set of skills or single skill group(s), but I suppose pushing the limits of RNG is bad.

[Username17]

I could see skill groups as part of a move towards a more 4rry skill system style. And I actually mean that, in that getting rid of ranks is all to the good. So you'd have skills be tagged or untagged, right? And tagged skills get some flat bonus for having done so. And then you would also tag or untag skill groups. And tagged skill groups would add a bonus to everything in them.

That would provide the basics of what people seem to want, which is to have it b impossible for a diplomacy specialist to be untrained in bluff while still allowing someone to have a diplomacy bonus without being trained in Bluff.

-Username17

[Aryxbez]

Frank's suggestion on the Tagging of Skills, and Skill groups sounds like a pretty good start to me. I think with my characters, I've wanted to have some competence in a skill, without having to be proficient in it, and looks like Skill Groups would a good step in that direction.

Also, I'd hope there'd be some folding of individual skills with this, as I mean seriously "Use Rope"? how is that a skill that's going to be relevant at all levels? Also other obvious things like combining Swim, Climb, Jump into Athletics, and Balance, Tumble, Escape Artist into like Acrobatics. Although, I think Jump should be for both the Athletic/Acrobatic kind of skills, much like EVADE, and COMBAT groups in the first post have done.

As for the CULTURE group, shouldn't that also have something like Knowledge skills, and/or something regarding Survival? Although I guess Profession could easily go under something like that.

Skill groups idea also reminds me of how in Spycraft, different uses in a single skill would have different ability modifiers, so Jump might use Str/Dex, while some Endurance skill might use constitution, or whatever.

[JonSetanta]

OK so we have two portions of the skill rank bonus that can be easily separated:

• Level
• +3

One would go to a "tagged" skill group, while the other goes to any skill trained within the group. Both stack.

EDIT: I'm thinking that the Level bonus goes to Group while +3 goes to individual skills.

Also, I'd hope there'd be some folding of individual skills with this, as I mean seriously "Use Rope"? how is that a skill that's going to be relevant at all levels? Also other obvious things like combining Swim, Climb, Jump into Athletics, and Balance, Tumble, Escape Artist into like Acrobatics. Although, I think Jump should be for both the Athletic/Acrobatic kind of skills, much like EVADE, and COMBAT groups in the first post have done.

As for the CULTURE group, shouldn't that also have something like Knowledge skills, and/or something regarding Survival? Although I guess Profession could easily go under something like that.

Use Rope: I just threw it in. If the character has witnessed someone make rope tricks, practices it briefly, and has the skill group, badabing. They have full ranks.

Survival: People in cities can't survive worth shit in the wild. It's a catchall for any hominid or sapient being with a culture to speak of, even a tribal one in mud huts, but something Survival can't do is pay the bills and grocery shop.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Sigma, why on earth are you keeping Iaijutsu as a skill? That shit is worse than Autohypnosis.

[JonSetanta]

Because it's there.

Expert-class likes it.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Because it's there.

Expert-class likes it.

Every fucking class that can take a rank of Sleight of Hand and make melee attacks likes it. That doesn't make it good in any way.

[JonSetanta]

Then don't use it. Gawd.