4e and huge numbers

[Prak]

So, hanging around B&N last night, I decided to take a look at 4e for myself, rather than keep going purely on what I hear.

Is it just me or did the numbers become huge with you adding 1/2 char. level to every d20 roll?

Also, what's the actual impact of this? I'm not exactly equipped to do the math but... well obviously it makes no difference for likely most contested rolls, but... other stuff?

[RobbyPants]

Well, the 1/2 CL thing keeps you on the RNG with level-appropriate threats and gives a predictable rate at which you pull away from lower level threats.

[Username17]

The +1/2 Level to skills makes no difference at all in 4e, because the DC for tasks are set based on your level rather than any challenge based notation. So slippery floors you happen to encounter ten levels from now will have DCs about 6 points higher.

Functionally, this means that the only thing that matters is relative bonuses, which gradually diverge as levels increase. DCs rise slightly faster than level bonuses alone take care of, so anything you aren't spending stat increases, magic items, feats, or powers to get better at is something you are getting worse at. The Gnome Wizard literally gets worse at keeping his footing on icy ground even though his acrobatics numbers are supposedly going up. Because the DC to keep his footing on the same patch of icy ground is rising faster than that. On the flip side, the Halfling Rogue next to him is gradually getting better and better at exactly that task, because the difficulty increases for Level Par don't keep up with his own rising dexterity and miscellaneous bonuses.

-Username17

[JonSetanta]

The Gnome Wizard literally gets worse at keeping his footing on icy ground even though his acrobatics numbers are supposedly going up.

These are increasingly more hazardous degrees of "icyness" we're dealing with.
By level 10, the aforementioned mid-tier Wizard is almost-failing patches that would outright botch any level 1 Wizard.

[Archmage]

These are increasingly more hazardous degrees of "icyness" we're dealing with.
By level 10, the aforementioned mid-tier Wizard is almost-failing patches that would outright botch any level 1 Wizard.

Yes, but the game's rulebooks don't bother to explain that. You're supposed to supply your own flavor text for why these things are getting harder, and there are no real-world examples for comparison.

So while the DC to climb a wall with handholds is obviously lower than a sheer wall of ice, 4e doesn't give you numbers based on what the real-world obstacle is. You get numbers based on the level you're supposed to encounter the obstacle. Which means jack shit if you want to know what your character is actually capable of doing, because your skills don't actually relate to anything in the game world. They just relate to arbitrary DCs that have been set so that you succeed x% of the time no matter what level you are.

Your character can do whatever the DM decides your character can do--and the rules don't actually say what that is.

[Kaelik]

Wrong sigma. If you run over an icy patch, and then revisit that same patch, it is now harder.

That's stupid, but that's also the rules.

[Archmage]

Wrong sigma. If you run over an icy patch, and then revisit that same patch, it is now harder.

That's stupid, but that's also the rules.

Actually, what I think the rules assume is that you never encounter the exact same obstacle twice. Which would make sense given the railroad-driven module products available for the system.

So the same patch of ice is not supposed to be harder to cross 5 levels later--it arguably is, but that's not the point--you're never supposed to cross the same patch of ice again after you complete the adventure, preventing you from noticing the smoke and mirrors.

[Sashi]

Is it just me or did the numbers become huge with you adding 1/2 char. level to every d20 roll?

Huge relative to what? Certainly not 3E. A level 30 fighter in 4E is adding 15 to his attack rolls just by existing, but a level 20 fighter in 3E is adding 20 just for existing. A Level 30 4E rogue is adding 20 to all his trained skills, a level 20 3E rogue is adding 23. The numbers go up higher and faster for 3E than 4E for any d20 roll that anyone actually cares about.

There's lots of legitimate criticism for 4E, but now we're just making shit up?

[JonSetanta]

If you run over an icy patch, and then revisit that same patch, it is now harder.

Show me.

[Zinegata]

Your character can do whatever the DM decides your character can do--and the rules don't actually say what that is.

I'm just going to note that Dragon/Dungeon magazine actually once said that you should just write whatever you want to be able to do on your character sheet. Want to be a Blacksmith? Add it to your character sheet.

They say this is so much better because it's a "liberating" experience.

Excuse me while I mentally burn a WoTC effigy.

[Archmage]

If you run over an icy patch, and then revisit that same patch, it is now harder.

Show me.

See page 61 of the 4e DMG:

Challenging terrain requires a skill check or ability to cross...use the Skill Check Difficulty Class table to select a relevant DC for the party's level. Examples of challenging terrain include ice, deep water, deep mud, or a thin beam across a chasm.

It then presents a table where you can see what DCs are easy, moderate, or hard for a given level range.

Note that the DCs are not based on the obstacle. At all. They're based on your level. You don't know if a thin beam is supposed to be a hard DC (at first level, in the unerrated dead trees version of the DMG, that's DC 25) or an easy DC. You know that 1st level characters are supposed to face challenging terrain with easy DCs of 15 and that 30th level characters are supposed to have to roll a DC 30 to cross "easy challenging terrain."

I'm just going to note that Dragon/Dungeon magazine actually once said that you should just write whatever you want to be able to do on your character sheet. Want to be a Blacksmith? Add it to your character sheet.

I remember reading that exact article. It makes me wonder why there are grognards who bitch about D&D 4e, claiming it's "not really D&D" while simultaneously putting OD&D on some kind of weird pedestal. OD&D is supposedly better because the old school emphasizes player skill over character abilities. There just aren't rules written for huge swaths of potential gameplay--everything from climbing trees to hiding from ringwraiths is either DM fiat or a die roll that might as well be a coin flip.

4e is the same. It has skills, and it has powers, but powers--which are 90% combat abilities--are where it's at. The skill system doesn't let you do anything meaningful without express DM permission; it might as well not be there at all.

[Zinegata]

My rebuttal to that article actually boiled down to "If you're gonna be lazy about making a non-combat skill system, then at least be honest about not wanting to include it instead of attempting to sugar-coat it as some form of roleplayng liberation"

[mean_liar]

ODnD at least has integrated mass combat, rulership, and achieving-immortality mechanisms.

[Prak]

Is it just me or did the numbers become huge with you adding 1/2 char. level to every d20 roll?

Huge relative to what? Certainly not 3E. A level 30 fighter in 4E is adding 15 to his attack rolls just by existing, but a level 20 fighter in 3E is adding 20 just for existing. A Level 30 4E rogue is adding 20 to all his trained skills, a level 20 3E rogue is adding 23. The numbers go up higher and faster for 3E than 4E for any d20 roll that anyone actually cares about.

There's lots of legitimate criticism for 4E, but now we're just making shit up?

If nothing else, straight ability checks get massive numbers, I didn't look too in depth into the system, but I did notice that half your level is added to every d20 roll, but you don't have BAB anymore. It was a very cursory glance, so I may be wrong, but I'm not making shit up.

[Sashi]

The only place ability checks exist in 4E are strength checks for bend bars/lift gates/break shit and dexterity checks for initiative. It's kind of weird that a 10 strength wizard just kind of gets better at lifting heavy grates, just like it's kind of weird that fireballs in 4E are square. The moment information about 4E was leaked people have been getting enormously butthurt over wizards lifting heavy things without hitting the gym and fighters growing arcane knowledge without hitting the library. Queue 300-page argument.

So, yeah, it's kind of weird that people have these bonuses, but the size is basically irrelevant.

[Prak]

The only place ability checks exist in 4E are strength checks for bend bars/lift gates/break shit and dexterity checks for initiative. It's kind of weird that a 10 strength wizard just kind of gets better at lifting heavy grates, just like it's kind of weird that fireballs in 4E are square. The moment information about 4E was leaked people have been getting enormously butthurt over wizards lifting heavy things without hitting the gym and fighters growing arcane knowledge without hitting the library. Queue 300-page argument.

So, yeah, it's kind of weird that people have these bonuses, but the size is basically irrelevant.

I didn't know they were so uncommon, like I said, I just glanced through the PHB at B&N.

I can actually see a case for either, the wizard begins to become so infused with arcane energy that he actually does, essentially, get stronger, while the fighter learns arcane trivia experientially.

The dex check/init with 1/2 level thing is weird... and largely doesn't matter, unless you're seriously fighting mooks or guys several levels ahead of you

[Psychic Robot]

Is it just me or did the numbers become huge with you adding 1/2 char. level to every d20 roll?

How is this different from 3e? You actually have higher skill values in 3e because of the way skill ranks work. The only difference is that the fighter will be rolling +15 on his Stealth at higher levels in 4e rather than +3 for his Hide/Move Silently in 3e.

[JonSetanta]

See page 61 of the 4e DMG:

Challenging terrain requires a skill check or ability to cross...use the Skill Check Difficulty Class table to select a relevant DC for the party's level. Examples of challenging terrain include ice, deep water, deep mud, or a thin beam across a chasm.

Thanks.
Having challenges stay the same difficulty even while a character improves constantly is counter to reality, though. So much for realism.
It's like if an Olympic athlete fails to perform the high vault; OK so they failed... but for the average citizen, they failed on an Olympic level.

New, different, and greater-rewarding challenges are needed all the time.
I refuse to play a game that doesn't allow anyone to surpass challenges to the point where they don't need to do the same old shit and worry about falling on their ass like a noob.

[Eikre]

The way I see it, in 4E you're the same dude from the moment you buy a griffin until whenever the end of the campaign is. No use in pretending you're moving through different "tiers."

So. Characters never get their 1/2 charlevel bonus ever again. Monsters will have 1/2 their encounter level subtracted from all their defensed and all their attack bonuses. There will still be marginal upward progression because they get HP and powers and a new + every five levels from their equipment, but now everyone stays pretty much within the same RNG. You get to feel like you're getting better at things in the exactly the same way you did before but never superhuman, because superhumans don't exist and anyone's day can be ruined by fifty dudes with crossbows, and those fifty dudes with crossbows will always be the same town guard, not level 23 Dire Enforcer Grim Snipesmen.

This approaches something I have a use for.

[Lago PARANOIA]

I don't like that approach because all it does is reinforce the shallowness of the system.

4E has a lot of logical holes in it, like Szass Tam not even having enough power to reliably one-shot a 1st-level monster, but that approach just makes it worse. It makes characters look even more pathetic and stupid than even that. Remember the skill challenge system? Yeah.

Really, that solution produces the exact same problems as going 'how does the fighter keep up with his high-level gish and paladin buddies who can create a tidal wave of acid or summon a horde of angels? Give him a +40 bonus to damage!'

[Eikre]

Clearly Szass Tam doesn't exist when you're doing it this way. Or if he exists then he's less god-king and more Harrison Ford from Airforce One, presumably competent but probably not prudent unless he keeps plenty of Skeletal Service guys around.

The characters will not look pathetic and stupid unless you think a level 10 character looks less pathetic and stupid than a level 3 character in 4E. He doesn't, if anyone looks pathetic and stupid then he looks exactly as pathetic and stupid as every other dickhead under the sun because he still slips on ice and gets a bloody nose, the fact that I'm making up bullshit and trying to justify his inflated skill checks by saying this isn't normal ice, it's the Frozen Carapace Of The Sleeping Lake Father is immaterial.

And nobody in 4E gets tidal waves of acid or hordes of angels. They get a slightly larger Fireball effect and maybe the flavor says something about a portal opening up and some angels firing arrows through it.

Point is that this is not an idea that will turn 4E into a good system, it is a pithy one-sentence patch that turns 4E into a tool for when I want to play a campaign in which the PCs to stay at just about the same power level the entire campaign but still have their level up druthers.

[Dean]

Really, that solution produces the exact same problems as going 'how does the fighter keep up with his high-level gish and paladin buddies who can create a tidal wave of acid or summon a horde of angels? Give him a +40 bonus to damage!'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFuMpYTyRjw

[Psychic Robot]

And nobody in 4E gets tidal waves of acid or hordes of angels. They get a slightly larger Fireball effect and maybe the flavor says something about a portal opening up and some angels firing arrows through it.

And this is why 4e is bad.