The Gaming Den

I saw the Tome Ranger that ThunderGod Cid created Here. What are your thoughts on it? Has anyone played one?

I like the idea, I'm just hoping it's not too much. Animal Companion, full BAB, 6/9 casting, and a slew of other abilities looks pretty potent, although the version of Animal Companion uses CR to gauge it's power like a cohort.

You forgot the +1/2level d6 favored enemy which also comes with other bonuses. The class looks like 100% grade A tome power-creep. This is like if the Jester had all the bonus feats of a Fighter, and autoquickened spells, and...Oh what the hell.

this stupid class wrote:Big Game Hunter (Ex): Many years of poaching have taught the ranger patience, bequeathing upon him the ability to cut down even large prey with ease. If a 13th level ranger studies his prey undetected for 1 whole round, he may gain sneak attack damage as a rogue of his class level against it on his next turn. This damage stacks with any bonus damage he may receive from the favored enemy class feature and any normal sneak attack damage he may possess.

It's a "not as good as Death Attack" effect. You're going to single that out as abusive?

Considering that death attack is the defining schtick of an entire tome class, yes.

Also, it's better than Death Attack. A 6th-level Assassin gets 8d6 Death Attack damage, on one attack. A 6th-level Ranger gets 6d6 bonus damage on 3 attacks.

TarkisFlux wrote:It's a "not as good as Death Attack" effect. You're going to single that out as abusive?

It gives away the primary draw of like 3 other classes as a single level in this class, I think it says something about the balance of the class and the mindset of the creator.

It's a level 13 ability. The assassin has other shticks and full death attack at that point.

Edit: I'm not saying it's not power-creepy, that just seems an odd thing to focus on. I've made the author aware of the thread as well, so if anyone wants to put suggestions in here they'll see them.

That's kind of what I thought. Hmmm. I'm debating if I want to go through the effort to try and prune it down to something more manageable or not. Do you think it can be fixed by the removal of a couple abilities?

My first thought is:
- lower casting back to 4th level spells
- remove fast casting
- reduce favored enemy bonuses in frequency and power

Even at that, you still get a [combat] feat and a CR 1 animal at 1st level, which seems pretty badass. Perhaps postpone that feat a level, or something. I don't know.

TarkisFlux wrote:It's a level 13 ability. The assassin has other shticks and full death attack.

This guy has spellcasting (autoquickening 3rd level spells at that point), 6d6 favored enemy+ 7d6 sneak, 3 bonus feats, a free cohort, free 5 foot steps, 6 minor and moderate favored enemy bonuses which range from shitty to extremely good. And good BAB.

I'd be fully against a casting reduction. Any class that casts should have a minimum of 6th-level casting.

RobbyPants wrote:That's kind of what I thought. Hmmm. I'm debating if I want to go through the effort to try and prune it down to something more manageable or not. Do you think it can be fixed by the removal of a couple abilities?

My first thought is:
- lower casting back to 4th level spells
- remove fast casting
- reduce favored enemy bonuses in frequency and power

Even at that, you still get a [combat] feat and a CR 1 animal at 1st level, which seems pretty badass. Perhaps postpone that feat a level, or something. I don't know.

I would give it a better spell list, but drop fast casting. I would reign in a few of the more powerful favored enemy bonuses, SR 10+level is pretty badass as are the minor dragon and vermin ones. Most of the others need a slight buff to be more interesting, or the class needs less focus on the favored enemy abilities; I would aim for the level of the Giant and Undead ones. I would give the class poison abilities instead of making them have sneak attack suddenly.

EDIT: The natural predator ability should be second level, so you don't have to spend a level regretting your favored enemy choice 50+% of the time.

The 3e ranger can actually compete in Tome games. She just needs the right favored enemies for the adventure.

This is a sign that boosting the 3e ranger is not a good way to make a Tome class.

That said, my recommendation is this: minor/advanced/major favored enemies should be a way of dividing up when you can gain a certain type of favored enemy. Rangers with favored enemies should have to choose from things like 'gnoll' at low level and ' outsider' at high levels. The abilities that go with more awesome types seem to be better anyway.

Dropping the favored enemy dice entirely is also an option.

I've always sort of taken the view that I can made a decent Ranger by taking the Tome Fighter and the right skills and weapons.

Rangers automatically having magic makes me go "?" because it just seems to come out of left field. I mean, sure, it makes it mirror the Paladin who gets Fighter/Clerics by making a Fighter/Druid. But it still makes me go "?"

Rangers are people who picked up either Action: Continual: Arms: Physique [Longbow] or Technique [Two Weapon]; and invest in stuff like Abilities: Continual: Magic: Biomancy; not Reactions: Normal : Block [Greatshieds] /Parry [Weapons] /Deflect [Full Plate] or Concentration: Mental: Education [Military Organization, Siege, Regiment Command, etc.]. Both can be charming, or sorcerers, or lead armies, or craft items of power; or collect manticore dirt. They just have different training specialities.

Their tend towards being light fighters, who focus on either hunting from a distance, or sword-fighting (shields are awesome, but they get annoying in continued forest travelling, especially if you are always off of paths and trails); with a very narrow range of Magic powers that are related to wilderness survival, bow hunting, or twin melee weapons figthing.

A fighter makes a decent sub for ranger, since training and ability overlap a lot. The only part where a RoW fighter won't be like a PHB ranger is that they're lacking in having spells specific to them. Replacing the bonus feats with specific feats (narrow the list to things such as: TWF, Command, Blitz, Whirlwind, PBS, Sniper, Hunter, Giantslayer, Ghost Hunter, Mage Slayer, Murderous Intent, Combat School); and removing key Fighter powers like Foil Action, Combat Focus, Improved Delay and things that are "tactical" more than they are about being a powerful adventurer and bow/swords user (the additional 5' step, forge lore, and one or two others can still fit the concept of the class); replaced with things that give: spellcasting of some kind, being able to ID enemies easier (Use class level + Wis modifier instead of Knowledge skill check to ID monsters (base DC = 10 + CR); allowing Rangers the ability to deal damage that ignores DR of ID'd creatures, or deal ability/slowing, damage; much like certain Monk fighting styles is also a possibility.

Cut out Big Game Hunter or tone it down, make Favored Enemy benefits require a Swift action to maintain, working like Soldier/Totemist/Incarnate.

Quick and dirty: what if you just take the PHB ranger, and swap all of the combat style abilities with a [Combat] feat, throw in another [Combat] feat at 16th level, and change the Animal Companion to simply be a CR of your level - 2?

Should anything be done with Favored Enemy?

RobbyPants wrote:Should anything be done with Favored Enemy?

I really like the idea of making each one do a unique thing that is most applicable against the favored enemy, but can also work against others. That's good design.

I'll have to give that some more thought than I have time for right now...

RobbyPants wrote:Quick and dirty: what if you just take the PHB ranger, and swap all of the combat style abilities with a [Combat] feat, throw in another [Combat] feat at 16th level, and change the Animal Companion to simply be a CR of your level - 2?

I've actually got a player using something very similar in my partial tome game, and the character is so far (3rd to 4th level game) at least competitive with the Tome Monk, Tome Assassin and Koumei Witch in the party.

Should anything be done with Favored Enemy?

1. All the selectable types need to be widened enough to actually apply in game. If you can pick stuff that shows up as often as "Dragon", "Undead" or "Animal" then the option to pick "Gnoll", "Ooze" or "Outsider,Air" is nothing but a newb trap.

2. This is minor, but as I pointed out in my hack, the damage add shouldn't be limited to weapon damage.

Thanks for that. I do remember reading that. How are you handling the Animal Companion by the way? Level -3, or straight character level?

I really like the idea of making each one do a unique thing that is most applicable against the favored enemy, but can also work against others. That's good design.

I like that idea. Maybe something like:

Bound to Solidity [Undead]
When you strike an incorporeal creature with a ghost-touch weapon, you bind it momentarily to the material world. Until your next turn, it loses the [Incorporeal] subtype. As a standard action, you can instead embed the weapon inside them, causing them to stay corporeal until it's removed (not sure what kind of action).

Out of curiosity, Kaelik, have you seen my "Spirit Ranger" class? If so, did you like it enough to recommend changes if you can't recommend it as-is?

Upon rethinking.

In d20, a Ranger has things like....

HD: d8

Skills: As per PHB ranger, also Knowlege (Int) (All skills taken individually).

Skills Per level: 6* + Int Modifier

*:[Really, 12 + Int Mod; our group recently shifted to, and back, from a "condensed" skill list for 3.5; simply doubling base class Skill points kept the same amount of balance between characters, honestly though, I don't see a real difference. I could see a difference when players get 3x or 4x their base class skills/level to see any sort of real differences between them at all]

BAB: Full

Saves: Good Fort, Good Ref, Good Will

1 Ranger Lore, Ranger Hunting Trick: Mortal
2 Mortal Ally (animal of CR-1), Ranger Bonus Feat
3 Great Fortitude, Hunting Trick: Mortal
4 Spellcasting, Ranger Bonus Feat
5 [Something], Hunting Trick: Mortal
6 Heroic Ally (As Mortal, but Magical Beast CR-2), Ranger Bonus Feat
7 [Something] Hunting Trick: Heroic
8 [Something], Ranger Bonus Feat
9 [Something], Hunting Trick: Heroic
10 [Something], Ranger Bonus Feat
11 Legendary Ally (Outsider, Construct, Undead, Dragon,), Hunting Trick: Legendary
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19 Epic Ally (Any creature, CR -2)
20

Proficiencies: Non-Armour, Light Armour, Bucklers, One-handed Slashing weapons, simple weapons, all bows, crossbows and thrown weapons are the Rangers Armour and Weapon Proficiencies.

Ranger Bonus Feats: Combat School, Point Blank Shot, Ghost Hunter, Giant Slayer, Hordebreaker, Mage Hunter, Hunter, Ghost Step, Sniper, Two Weapon Fighting, Whirlwind [and other Combat/Skill feats that seem reasonable, ]

Ranger Hunting Trick: At first level, and every other level afterwards, a Ranger puts into practice a lesson they once were taught, but didn't understand at the time.

DCs are 10 + 1/2 Character level + Wis modifier (as if you had to be told by now). Ranges of offensive powers are all based on the range or reach of their wielded weapons. Creatures affected by a Ranger Hunting Trick

At first level, a Ranger can select from Mortal Tricks:

Troglodyte: 10-min Action: Quench Stench: Medium creature (scale up/down the 10 minutes for different sized creatures) for 24 hrs, -20 on charisma based skill checks with creatures. Nauseate reptilian enemies within 30', Fort to negate for 24 hrs. Can be used on allies.

Kobalt: Immediate Action: Bark, Fort save or shaken one round, hearing distance. Kobolds and other small creatures: Will save or be Panicked for one round, hearing distance. Hearing distance is defined as Close Range, or a Perform Check added to the Listen checks of creatures trying to hear the character (better performers can have their voice carry further).

Uruk: Swift Action: Taunt: Will Save or move towards character at full speed. Orcs and any wilderness humanoids: Will save or be enraged, and chase character (as Barbarian Rage: +2 to attack, damage, and saves -2 to AC).

Goblin: Immediate Action: Squeak! : Any ally may attempt a Hide check, even if they were observed and haven't broken line of sight. You can make rushed diplomacy checks against Goblinoids without penalty, your range for your Intimidate skill is equal to Skill Ranks or Ranger Level, whichever is higher, in feet (i.e. divide by five to get new range). [Note: Intimidate is melee-reach only normally]

Zombie:

Dretch:

Lantern Archon:

Green Slime:

Ranger Lore: When making Knowledge skill checks, Ranger may use their skill Ranks, or their Ranger level, whichever is higher.

Mortal Ally: At second level, a Ranger has an ally in the form of a normal animal. If this animal leaves, is dismissed, or is killed, a new one can be called from the region with a 24-hour ritual. A mortal ally has a CR one less than the Ranger.

Spellcasting: As PHB Ranger; until further revised

Ranger Hunting Trick: Heroic: At sixth level, a Ranger may select from Heroic Hunting Tricks

Troll: 5-45 Minute "Action": 'Dirt'y Blade: Your attacks deal Vile Damage for the next 24 hours. Against Trolls and creatures with Regeneration or Fast Healing, your attacks force them to make a Will Save or become Panicked; even creatures immune to Fear effects. Can be used by allies.

Wyvern: Immediate Action: Drop Like a Mantis from a Bat: If you, or any ally chooses to drop prone when an enemy with a flight speed attacks them, the attack is negated, and the creature instead deals as much damage to itself, as it would have dealt with the attack. Against Wyverns, and other creatures with wings, you may reduce damage dealt to reduce their flight speed (-5 Damage per 5 foot reduction); or lower their flight manoeuvrability one step (-50 damage to lower one step, no more than once per round per creature). Can be used by allies.

Wraith: If you can Identify your opponent, you can ignore miss chance against incorporeal enemies. Against undead, your weapon attacks deal full damage, against Incorporeal Undead, you ignore their immunity to critical hits and mental or morale effects.

Ogre:

Lycanthropes:


Hunting Trick: Legendary: At level 11 and onwards, the Ranger may use Hunting Tricks used to hunt Legendary creatures

Golem: Knee-shot: You ignore Damage Reduction that is not X/-. Your attacks on Constructs count as Critical Hits.

Elemental: Sickening: Your attacks Sicken your target on a failed Fort Save. Your attacks against Elementals leave them Staggered (1 Move, or Standard, Action per round) if you successfully deal damage to them

Beholder: Stone in the Stream: If subjected to more than one effect that forces a Saving throw in a round, you may elect to take 10 for the second, and all subsequent, saving throws for the next minute. Against Beholders, and creatures with Ray Attacks, if you make a Spot check greater than their attack roll, you negate the attack.

Lich:


Hunting Trick: Epic: At level 16 and onwards, the Ranger may use Hunting Tricks used to hunt Epic creatures:

Dragon:

Nightwing:

Tarrasquon:


----

Something like that. The Dungenomicon Monk gave a pretty decent template for how to hand out special powers to characters; choose from a laundry list of options as you level up, with more and more powerful options showing up as you power up.

The ranger ends up looking a bit like Beastmaster, a bit like Aragorn, and can seriously say they are a hunter of Trolls, and that means something that matters, not some flat numerical advantage.

Other "somethings" can seriously be things that fit the archetype, but haven't been outlined: Terrain Mastery, Travel Abilities, Wilderness Tracking, Trackless Step, Hide in Plain Sight, etc. etc.

Looks like the info didn't get propogated here -- there were some updates on the Tome ranger on the wiki.

Recently?

About a half dozen changes between the 15th-17th. Big Game Hunter no longer exists.