The Gaming Den

Every few months, I find yet another fan of 4e indicating some level of butthurt and annoyance with this blog post,

http://1d8.blogspot.com/2011/02/evoluti ... l?spref=fb

which shows the evolution of the fighter's capacity to handle basic goblins through various versions of D&D, and 4e.

Thing is, I've YET to see a 3e/3.5 fan spout RAGE over the implications of increase from 1e to 3e (even though it's a bigger jump, relatively speaking), or to offer apology after apology over it.

That post is YEARS old, and 4e fans still show anger over it, much like with dissociated mechanics posts.

So I have to concede that there really is a difference in "thinking" between a certain sort of 4e fan and pretty much all fans of D&D.

In my humble opinion, of course.

I had a great comment, but apparently two people must have logged on to the board at the same time and took the system down. So sorry.

I have noticed that there is a certain kind of "fans" that go full RAGE any time someone analyzes the game in any way. The moment you start bringing math into the arena, these players freak out. Look at the Warhammer fans who rage at "Mathhammer" or the Pathfailure acolytes who flip out at people discussing "Theorycraft".

Make no mistake: when I produced the Cleric Archer for 3rd edition (initially created to demonstrate that Arcane Archers were underpowered), people raged. It doesn't really matter what your conclusions are, people are deeply unhappy just that you have objective mathematical analysis. At all.

That being said, I see a lot more of that attitude in 4rries. But that might just be because the 4e fans feel themselves constantly embattled.

-Username17

Sadly they don't mention the 2nd edition overpowered Ranger with his 2d8 hp at first level.

Hey, it's Morgan Ironwolf! Man, that takes me back.

I think some of the differential can be explained by the difference in intent between OD&D and 4E. Early editions of D&D were, after all, just one step past a miniatures wargame (and a very small step at that). It was much more an exercise in small-unit tactics than a "roleplaying game" as the term is understood today. That paradigm shifted a little bit in the move to the Basic Set, and a little more in the move to 2nd edition, but the difference between 2nd and 3rd was gigantic.

3rd and 4th edition share a lot of assumptions, and, frankly, there hasn't been nearly the level of evolution in the hobby that there was between the release of 2nd and 3rd editions. It's not rageworthy to point out how much more capable a 3e fighter is of handling goblins than a 1e fighter, because roleplaying games changed massively in the interim, and the mission of the rules system was much different.

But 3e and 4e are much closer. And a lot of 4e people seem to disparage 3e as a game for munchkins and numbercrunchers. So pointing out that a 4e fighter is actually better for powergamers ... it's not surprising that that generates rage.

What would the curve be if he used a standard 1st level goblin instead of a minion?

sabs wrote:Sadly they don't mention the 2nd edition overpowered Ranger with his 2d8 hp at first level.

That was 1st edition.
And talk about overpowered...they also got +1/level damage against just about every evil humanoid and giant. That was pretty hardcore back then.

talozin wrote:Hey, it's Morgan Ironwolf! Man, that takes me back.

I think some of the differential can be explained by the difference in intent between OD&D and 4E. Early editions of D&D were, after all, just one step past a miniatures wargame (and a very small step at that). It was much more an exercise in small-unit tactics than a "roleplaying game" as the term is understood today. That paradigm shifted a little bit in the move to the Basic Set, and a little more in the move to 2nd edition, but the difference between 2nd and 3rd was gigantic.

3rd and 4th edition share a lot of assumptions, and, frankly, there hasn't been nearly the level of evolution in the hobby that there was between the release of 2nd and 3rd editions. It's not rageworthy to point out how much more capable a 3e fighter is of handling goblins than a 1e fighter, because roleplaying games changed massively in the interim, and the mission of the rules system was much different.

But 3e and 4e are much closer. And a lot of 4e people seem to disparage 3e as a game for munchkins and numbercrunchers. So pointing out that a 4e fighter is actually better for powergamers ... it's not surprising that that generates rage.

As far as old school D&D, remember, fighters weren't intended to have names until like 4th level. They were canon fodder to protect the more important wizards and shit in the back.

Data Vampire wrote:What would the curve be if he used a standard 1st level goblin instead of a minion?

That's just it, a minion of 4e IS a basic goblin of D&D. The rules are different (like everything else between 4e and D&D), but just as minions have special rules that let them shrug off fireballs (that D&D goblins could never survive), D&D goblins were subjected to the "multi attacks from fighters" rule, and generally had such low hit points that they WERE oneshotted by characters, even with basic attacks.

The 3rd goblin has a challenge rating of 1/3 so 3 are considered a appropriate encounter at level for a normal four character party of 1st level.

In 4E a first level non-minion goblin has a Xp budget of 100 so 4 would be appropriate encounter at level for a normal four character party of 1st level.

A goblin minion has an Xp budget of 25 so 16 would supposedly be a appropriate encounter at level for a normal four character party of 1st level.

A 3/25 ratio is a bit more biases than 3/4.

What are the stat differences between a minion and non-minion? I imagine it's mainly going to be AC and hitpoints.

That's assuming CR is actually a valid measure of anything, which obviously it isn't, by the blog post (one guy kills far more than 3, after all, and he's not even an entire party). Earlier versions of the game didn't really try to quantify a CR or the like, except, very crudely, with hit dice.

Minions don't really get much in the way of stat differences...the only thing really is the 1 hp and the "not injured by missed attacks" bonus ability.

Doom wrote:
Minions don't really get much in the way of stat differences...the only thing really is the 1 hp and the "not injured by missed attacks" bonus ability.

That has always confused me about minions. Why add such a stupid caveat like that to something that is suppose to be swatted away like an annoying bug?

TheFlatline wrote:What are the stat differences between a minion and non-minion? I imagine it's mainly going to be AC and hitpoints.

Non-minions have special abilities as well. The basic Monster Manual has two different named character goblins to choose from. One of them does bonus damage for having combat advantage ad is like a rogue-lite, the other does bonus ranged damage for moving and is like a scout-lite. Both of those assholes have 25 hit points and more and do 2d6+2 damage instead of 4 damage for the minion. The "basic goblin" is the minion. 4e is pretty explicit about that.

-Username17

All minions have 1 HP take no damage on a miss and have fixed damage rather than die randomized damage.

The goblin minion seems to lack a role as well and has an initiative at +3.

The two other first level goblins are a goblin blackblade that is a lurker and a goblin warrior that is a skirmisher. They have a few powers to help them with their role. Both have a damage boost by 1d6, bonuses to stealth and thievery that are 5 points higher.

The goblin warrior also has all its NADs (Non-AC Defense) at one higher than the other two, 4 more HP that the lurker at 29, and a standard power that lets it move a short distance and attack. It's initiative is +5. It gains it's bonus damage by moving 4 squares from it's start.

The goblin blackblade can switch places with an ally whenever it shifts and has an initiative at +7. Additionally it gains its bonus damage when it is granted combat advantage.

In a strait one-on-one fight the blackblade would be weaker as it cannot gain combat advantage by flanking the the goblin warrior only has to move 4 squares to get the extra damage.

FrankTrollman wrote:The "basic goblin" is the minion. 4e is pretty explicit about that.

Based on what exactly?

Doom wrote:That's assuming CR is actually a valid measure of anything, which obviously it isn't, by the blog post (one guy kills far more than 3, after all, and he's not even an entire party).

CR is buggy at best. I've seen a gauntlet challenge where single fifth level characters wiped the floor with whole adventures that where supposed to be appropriate for a party of four.

However this example has a further complicating factor. Facing a series of single goblins is not the same as facing a series of groups of three (or all at once). With the latter they could beat on a single character all and once and the dodge feat bonus wouldn't be as much of an advantage.

Data Vampire wrote:

FrankTrollman wrote:The "basic goblin" is the minion. 4e is pretty explicit about that.

Based on what exactly?

I wasn't aware of this either. Still, a 25 HP first level goblin just does not compute. Something is wrong.

cthulhudarren wrote:

Data Vampire wrote:

FrankTrollman wrote:The "basic goblin" is the minion. 4e is pretty explicit about that.

Based on what exactly?

I wasn't aware of this either. Still, a 25 HP first level goblin just does not compute. Something is wrong.

It's 4.Fail. Course there's something wrong.

Data Vampire wrote:

FrankTrollman wrote:The "basic goblin" is the minion. 4e is pretty explicit about that.

Based on what exactly?

There are three 1st level goblins. 2 of them have special roles and abilities. The third one is generic and comes in large numbers. When you say "the basic goblin" you are obviously talking about that one.

-Username17

cthulhudarren wrote:I wasn't aware of this either. Still, a 25 HP first level goblin just does not compute. Something is wrong.

It's "1st level" in the 4e time-management sense. If you're fighting in a level-appropriate encounter, then by definition everything is supposed to have one-shot-drop resistance, except for the creatures that you're explicitly calling out as "born to lose" (i.e. minions). The design idea is to make the combat last long enough that everyone has the chance to shoot their lasers, engage in the flank/AOO dance, etc., because obviously those are the most funnerest parts of the game. You're not trying to kill the PCs or even really threaten them; you're just trying to prevent one-round fights and stretch the whole thing out to 3-5 rounds/30-60 mins real time. (That thesis is somewhat less true currently because they passed out free damage on both sides, PC-side with AV/PHB2, monster-side with MM3/errata.)

As far as how you'd equate "lvl 1 non-minion goblin" to older-edition creatures, I didn't come up with a standard rule of thumb like I did for PCs (the math is warped so you generally have to lower hp/increase damage to normalize to PC numbers), but it's probably something like 3 hd (25*0.75/6), CR no idea off the top of my head.

Minor Tangent: I guess at first level it didn't matter, but didn't the OD&D Fighting Man get extra attacks equal to his level if all the enemies in melee with him were 1HD or below?

Data Vampire wrote:However this example has a further complicating factor. Facing a series of single goblins is not the same as facing a series of groups of three (or all at once). With the latter they could beat on a single character all and once and the dodge feat bonus wouldn't be as much of an advantage.

You've already acknowledged CR is buggy at best, so it's not "further complicating factor", it's "how about I try another issue."

Yes, you're right the 3e fighter has something that help him fight single monsters, and the earlier edition has specialization...and 4e you might have started with plate mail. There are DIFFERENCES between all versions of D&D and 4e, there's no way to make them all exactly identical in every way, pointing out the existence of differences is simply pointing out the blog is making a comparison. We get that.

But, in the test, all of them have a created 'fighter' up against a goblin, fighting one at a time.

Pointing that we're looking at different editions or different games means nothing, that's rather obvious. Pointing out that under an arbitrary, known to be flawed, and (for earlier editions) nonexistant measurement like CR some things are different also means nothing.

All the test is, is comparing a typical fighter against a typical goblin, one at a time. So, yes, there are difference, this is obvious.

FrankTrollman wrote:

Data Vampire wrote:

FrankTrollman wrote:The "basic goblin" is the minion. 4e is pretty explicit about that.

Based on what exactly?

There are three 1st level goblins. 2 of them have special roles and abilities. The third one is generic and comes in large numbers. When you say "the basic goblin" you are obviously talking about that one.

-Username17

I don't often agree with Frank, but the Lurker and Skirmisher with their 25/29 hps respectively, aren't what i would call basic either.

basic would be without other options, and ANY basic monster would be the lowest form so a "basic" goblin is just a 1 hp minion.

"Mobs" are formed of "basic" monsters... and all minions are the mob tools of 4th edition.

A village of goblins will have the few Lurkers and Skirmishers, but the rest of the combatants, and "basic" form of that monster comes form the minions, cannon fodder.

World ended 03-04-2011 08:43 am PST.

cthulhudarren wrote:I wasn't aware of this either. Still, a 25 HP first level goblin just does not compute. Something is wrong.

Standard 4E hit points are higher for non-minion monsters. The listed standard under monster creation rules is (6-10 depending on role)X(level +1) + its Con. Lurkers have base 6 and skirmishers base 8.

FrankTrollman wrote:

Data Vampire wrote:

FrankTrollman wrote:The "basic goblin" is the minion. 4e is pretty explicit about that.

Based on what exactly?

There are three 1st level goblins. 2 of them have special roles and abilities. The third one is generic and comes in large numbers. When you say "the basic goblin" you are obviously talking about that one.

You've shifted the goal post from "pretty explicit" to "obviously". Even then all non-minion monsters have roles and stats to enforce those roles.

Beyond that pages 58-59 of the Dungeon Master's Guide sets up encounter templates. Both the battlefield control and wolf pack templates have possibilities of all skirmisher groups with wolf pack having that be the only possibility. Minions, however, are under "simple substitutions".

Doom wrote:[snip]

The point was that the blogger obviously used a vastly different bar to measure the 4E fighter that biased the results. Even as buggy as CR was it should be clear.