Proposed modern fantasy campaign setting: Gaia Crusaders

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Lago PARANOIA
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Proposed modern fantasy campaign setting: Gaia Crusaders

Post by Lago PARANOIA »

So one of the ongoing things about fantasy is about how neat and swell and magic is and how our modern world is dull and meaningless. Aside from this viewpoint being immature, it also has a really strong chance of being ironic (see Harry Potter or Naruto). So this whole exercise came as a result of a thought process of 'what if instead of wallowing in this indulgent hypocrisy, you made a setting which actually showed how awful it'd be if magic as we like to envision it existed'?

I'm not putting this in 'It's My Own Creation' because it's not choate enough to be a campaign setting. Right now this whole project is just IDEAS. I'm pitching it to you guys, getting opinions and input, trying to see if there's any merit in the whole thing.


The world used to be a pretty swell place until magic came. Then it changed the world for the worst.
Even though FTL-travel hasn't been invented, Orion Drives did allow people to travel places within the solar system and even discover intelligence in their neighborhood. All of the contact was peaceful by the way. On the Earth-analog it's basically a utopia. Crime is really low; racism, sexism, religious strife, and dictatorships are a thing of the past; replicators and free energy exist to an extent that the Gini index is in the mid .90s, genetic engineering has wiped out disease and has made the human lifespan 250 years; so on and so forth. Artificial intelligence is just in its infancy and the smallest AI is the size of a two-story building, with it getting smaller all of the time. Neuroscience has advanced to the point where mind-uploading and intelligence enhancing is tantalizingly close, which would make humans and androids indistinguishable.

In a parallel universe, meanwhile, magic and gods reign supreme. The world is a blighted, barely-existing landscape like it is in Dungeons and Dragons. In other words, life is like a combination of the worst parts of the Dark Ages, the Inquisition, and the subjugation of African and Indian nations made worse by random dragon attacks and kept on top by a magical aristocracy. Unfortunately, like with have most people have said most D&D-verses should have happen to them, there was one too many apocalypses and the magical world was dying. The Gods hatched a scheme to use a ritual to fuse their worlds with the closest analog so that they could continue to exist and run the world the way that they wanted to. They called their world the Light World and the modern world the Dark World. They were also aware that the Dark World would never accept their way of life let alone worship them, so the only resort was to destroy those governments in a pre-emptive strike and install themselves as leaders.

Which totally happened. A flood of magical phenomena hit a totally unprepared world, causing governments to collapse and destroying interplantary travel--causing races not native to the world to be stranded where they are. With the population temporarily subdued, they initiated the World Fusion ritual which transplanted landscape and cities and entire populations right onto to Dark World. The people realized what was happening and fought back and though the World Fusion ritual stripped a lot of the magical powers of the immigrants and the gods the Light Worlders still managed to win. They installed themselves as rulers again and went back to their old ways of dragonriders battling over cities for land and elven aristocrats living in opulance while the city starved.

Magic isn't automatically bad in the sense of the Dark Side of the Force; it's possible to have constructive uses for it. The problem is that the destructive uses for it outweigh the constructive ones. A team of wizards can totally level a metropolis if they're not stopped and a lot of wizards are selfish enough to do so. Of course to prevent things from devolving completely into D&D with a blasted Points of Light landscape, the really destructive magic is rare. They're like nukes in Shadowrun; they've happened many times but society doesn't collapse from a few or even twenty of them. The problem is that much of the more powerful magic (dragon magic, elven magic, etc.) is genetically determined, such that most of the magical tools couldn't escape into the hands of the masses. Even if the Magocracy had a change of heart it wouldn't make the world better because magic is limited in constructive potential--they'd still need to go back to the old science.

Science has suffered a huge but not permanent setback.
In the bad old days, it was totally possible for 100 knights to take on a village of 5000 peasants and win. In addition to the massive gulf in equipment, there was also the issue of training and nutrition. Today, not so much; at least in places with technological similarity between the military and the populace. The people who hold the magical tools are aware of this and world like to completely stamp out science... the problem with it is that it gives too much of an advantage to the competing magical factions to fully abandon; the Darklands simply cannot collapse without modern agricultural techniques. Kefin, the City of Sand, would collapse entirely without plumbing and power systems to run the plumbing. So while technology is very assymetrical, even in the same location, it's not as if you couldn't find a working computer or RV if you looked hard enough. The magical forces would also love to eradicate inconvenient social sciences and humanities and take great pains to do so, but there is so much geegaw left out in the lands that you can seriously stumble upon a CD that contains the entire scanned contents of the New York Library on it.

The people have memories of their utopia.
It's only been about 40 years since the collapse of the old world. And people are pissed that they had to give it up. People live with the knowledge that they're going to outlive their grandchildren with genetic engineering surpressed (and told that this is a good thing, since exceeding your natural lifespan is wrong), things we take for granted like chocolate and oranges are reserved for the upper classes, people are facing arbitrary amounts of discrimination, and that they're going to have to TILL the SOIL. In some places the social engineering has advanced enough that people aren't automatically against the new government but for the most part the people who didn't come from the fantasy world or are on the top of the social ladder hate it. Unlike in most fantasy, people can imagine a better life than mud farms and terror.

Not to mention the fact that even though the old society has collapsed doesn't mean that it's completely gone. While it's true that most of the Dark World cities resemble those of Fist of the North Star or Mad Max, it's not like you can't go downtown and at least not see where the City Hall and the amusement park used to be. Some of it even still works, especially by the lucky few who has enough magical power to get things to run for a few seconds.

Long-range travel is difficult but not impossible.
Even though the old world has collapsed and there aren't things like maintained roads and gas stations, it's not like it's necessarily impossible to make a cross-country trip across the United States in four days. There are still some vehicles if you can get them and if you can avoid the roadsign gangs and the random monsters and somehow manage to scrape up enough fuel you could conceivably do it. So someone in Brazil claiming that they just moved from Canada is really unusual, but not impossible. The same goes for communication. The Internet, propped up by secret societies and sympathetic mages exists very sporadically but it exists. If you really want to and you're willing to risk it you can totally tell your cousin in Mexico City that the weather in Bombay sucks ass due to the aftereffects of a spellplague storm.

The Gods are real and they're petty.
Gods like Zeus and Lovitar and Thor totally exist and they totally grant superpowers. In fact they're the whole reason why the fantasy world was able to cross over with the modern world. Now while the Gods (except for Yahweh, but he doesn't exist in this setting :wink:) aren't baby-eating evil they behave exactly like you would expect personifications of domains and elemental embodiments in a privileged class with a vested interested in the status quo to behave. That is, stories like Arachne and Job totally exist and happen and Poseidon will totally sent a tsunami at your city if you piss him off enough. Some of the nominally 'good' gods like Anansi and Bahamut are aware that they're totally making the world worse and angst about ruining the lives of people who were better off without them, but for the most part they act like the gods in classical mythology. However, while very powerful they're not invincible. A person, even a Dark World native, could accumulate enough power to totally blow Ganesh's brains out. It's just very hard; the Gods function more like the Legion of Doom in this way, only they already own the world.

The people can theoretically make a stand against this brave new world.
Since the Dark World used to be peaceful, there was no need for standing militaries or complicated weaponry; needless to say they got blindsided by the Light Worlders. But the invasions and World Fusion ritual has unfortunately stripped a lot of their magical power. While organizing a force to take on the Necromancer's Guild that has taken root in Detroit would result in huge casualties (not least because the halflings are barely on their side), it's not an automatic loss for the non-badasses like in D&D. You simply cannot gain the amount of power in this campaign setting necessary to make big changes in the world on your lonesome. In fact at the time period at which the campaign setting is set a few major cities have managed to kick out their fantasy overlords. There is going to be a reprisal of course, but it shows that rebellion is totally possible.

While the muggles so to speak are kind of restricted on what they can do with magic, there is still other supernatural phlebtonium to help them out. Psionics is available as an alternative for people who don't have magical talent. Non-arcane super-science totally exists. Even divine magic works and you don't necessarily have to schtup a god in order to get access to it; a guy can totally pray hardcore to the nature deities for several years and become a paladin. And if you don't have a nameable form of phlebtonium, people have totally seen a so-called mundane warrior slice an iron golem in half with one swing of a butterfly knife. Arcane and divine magic are only on top because it's easy to control their access to the population at large and you can gain huge superpowers from them without really working very hard.

Extra-terrestrial races; what's up with that?
Oh, they're there. You have races like your Vulcan-analogue, your Turian-analogue, your Asari-analogue, etc.. Because you're fusing them with the typical stable of fantasy races it may not seem necessary, but it seemed to imply unfortunate things about races (even if they're just fictional) if we made it so that only human beings got oppressed by those mean fantasy races. So if nothing else you have to have intelligent species other than humans in the setting.

Travel to other worlds is still quite possible. If not with the handful of spaceships still working then with magic. This is not available for most people unfortunately so chances are if you see a non-Earthling on Earth they've been stuck there ever since World Fusion. The background of 'I came from another planet' isn't impossible but it's definitely not something you can casually claim like 'son of pirates' or 'was a war profiteer'.

So what does a typical adventure look like?
Imagine a combination of Mad Max and Shadowrun, leaning in the former direction. In Shadowrun, society is pretty much impossible to defeat. In this game, it's possible but VERY VERY hard. You and some other sociopaths can totally accumulate enough power to beat up the entirety of Seoul's police force if you're that much of a bastard. Because communication is so spotty, even with the remnants of the Internet, you can level a few villages out in the boonies then head cross-country and probably not have to worry about paying for it. Just like in D&D. This means that you don't have to take the extreme precautions and anonymity worship that you do in Shadowrun, but the vast majority most sociopaths still have to obey the law. Cities do collapse now and then because of assymetrical power accumulation between individuals and society and it's just a fact of life.

Now even though this is the ruins of modern society, people can still find guns and artillery and stuff. Obviously the religious orders and magocracies fear them, even if they want them for themselves. It's just that such equipment is only really the gamechanger that it was in the medieval times because they weren't competing against actual superpowers. So even if they weren't rare, five guys with uzis wouldn't be an automatic win against a mid-levelled wizard. Twenty guys with uzis would still be a threat and hence why the powers that be are very serious about gun control. The point is that like in D&D, most combat takes place at melee range and especially at higher levels being a guy who wields a sword and classic armor is totally feasible. Again, think Mad Max.

So with that in mind, here are some sample adventures:
  • Manticores have decided to take up nest by one of the old trailer parks by the lake. The people there would like to flee with their dilapidated vehicles, but the highway is blocked by a gang of gnoll slavers, putting the refugees between a rock and a hard place.
  • A zombie apocalypse has hit one of the desert cities. While nothing can really be done for the place, there's also a hidden Internet relay station that connects Lisbon with the west border of Spain that went down. You must ensure that it gets repaired, remains hidden, and because the Powers That Be are aware of this you need to find some way to magically hide it, too.
  • Going through classified files shows that there was an experimental FTL spaceship buried in the Arctic tundra. Unfortunately the area has shown that this area is guarded by neanderthals, snow elves, wendigo tribes, and other such nastiness. Since you won't be able to retrieve the engines and schematics yourselves you'll have to bring a team of explorers as well. You're supposed to keep them safe too so they can help you drag it back.
  • The local water dragon spirit has been turning the swamplands' water brackish and diseased. You must either appease the dragon or pound some sense into his head.
  • The Copenhagen Magocracy branch recently raided a hidden Internet cafe and imprisoned the computer techs along with the documents that they were trying to archive; the documents they were trying to preserve was the collection of the city's childrens' library. You must break into the jail and rescue them before they're publically executed.
  • An airtight nuclear cruiser got Hex-Bombed Several years ago and crashed to the bottom of the Black Sea. Unfortunately, the Hex leaked into the reactor and has not only turned the crew into superpowered ghouls but is infecting the wildlife and sailors that pass through it. Your job is to make a deep-sea expedition and purify the reactor while also trying not to soak up too much radiation.
  • There is a gang war in the east side of the dilapidated downtown of Philadelphia between the shifters and whatever you're calling the not!Turian. There have been reports of banned weaponry being used and if it gets out of hand it will attract the attention of the Magocracy.
Last edited by Lago PARANOIA on Sat Apr 02, 2011 1:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by FatR »

Sorry Lago, but the whole idea as presented is stupid. And not even because its ideas about medieval society (or DnD society) are lifted from Tomes. Because the stated setting assumptions are self-contradictory. If the tech world has shit like free energy, there is no way the magic world can win without either one-upping that with outright reality-warping at will (in which case they don't need to invade - and will be practically invincible if they decide to invade for the lulz), or a really watertight conspiracy that took a good time to evaluate tech world's weaknesses and hit them with a perfectly coordinated assault (which pretty much requires completely unified government with no high-league dissenters, but in this case the magic world will be magic-punk, and your stated reason for invasion evaporates again). Instituting any semi-unified policy of oppression obviously requires a unified front on the part of invaders as well.

Seriously, just about any other premise for "magical invasion" will work better. For examples:

- The magic world is getting unstoppably destroyed by whatever threat can be much harder to handle than a dimensional migration. So the survivors forget their differences and band together to stage a dimensional migration, causing catastrophic damage to the tech world in the process (accidentally, deliberately or because they didn't care). The setting is about both sides trying to rebuild, some groups together, some groups attempting to dominate each other, and maybe to prepare for war if (or when) the above-mentioned threat decides to pursue.

- Denizens of the magic world are uber-powerful and see the whole thing as colonization, in fact, interdimensional invasions is what they do. They destroy organized resistance in the initial assault, but then are torn apart by political strife - some see how kickass the future tech is and want to spread it across the worlds, integrate it with magic, so on, some want to hoard it for themselves and use it to subjugate their homeland, some see it as dangerous and want to eliminate it, and there are dissenters who help the resitance against the new sorcerous overlords. The setting is about struggles between those factions.

- The whole event was a natural (?) cataclysm, that left both worlds in utter ruins, but impacted the magic world and its population (relatively) much less. The setting is about surviving the post-apocalyptic wasteland, now filled with monsters beyond human reason and rogue magic-users (in this scenario you don't need any sort of advanced civilization or organization on the magic world part, quite to the contrary, so various magical tyrants and monsters would just shrug and try to do their old thing in the new world), trying to carve domains for themselves, while attempting to recover the old technology and set the world right.
Last edited by FatR on Sat Apr 02, 2011 3:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Orion »

FatR wrote: If the tech world has shit like free energy, there is no way the magic world can win without one-upping that with outright reality-warping at will
This is the only part of your criticism that makes any damn sense (and it does need to be addressed.

Your first proposed setting actually includes Lago's as a possible case. You'd have to be more specific about what you want and epxlain why it's better.

Your second...sounds *exactly like* his setting, just focused on the overlords. The third...okay, it could work, but why is it better?
Lago PARANOIA
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

FatR wrote:If the tech world has shit like free energy, there is no way the magic world can win without one-upping that with outright reality-warping at will
It can, if the magic world (un)intentionally targeted the power infrastructure before crossing over. If that kind of thing was accompanied by earthquakes, kaiju monsters running everywhere, various flavors of undead apocalypses, strange magical plagues complete with gremlins (WW2 style), etc.. it's not very hard to imagine that society couldn't recover enough to mount a successful counterattack -- especially if they were a previously peaceful society for several generations.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by Orion »

That said, lago, I have some beefs.

Martial Characters are Stupid

It appears that you're planning on having a "fighter" class which allows mundane humans to cleave dragons in two. Why? First of all, it's out of theme. The Utopia shouldn't have badass cartoon warriors because it doesn't have warriors. Plus, adding Charles Atlas Superpowers really takes away from the feeling that this is happening "on earth, to us" if you ask me.

Furthermore, the dynamics of your setting theoretically revolve around controlling access to phlebotinum. It's harder to care about the repositories of tech or the magic bloodlines if martials are just as good for no reason.

Finally, it's a flagrant waste of page space. In a setting with spellcasters, Supertech, and possible Magitek, you really shouldn't lack for classes and powers to stat up. Nor do you need to allow martials to allow action heroes. First of all, you have limitlessly powerful guns, bombs, and power armor available for iron man type situations. You have aliens or supernaturals with potentially obscene physical prowess. And for the player who wants to be a low-tech rambo, you can hand our super-strength and super-speed via irreproducible nanobots or something.

Aliens PLUS Shadowkin?

Actually I think mixing extraterrestrials with extradimensionals *could* work and *could* create a really rich world. That said, there are strong arguments again it.

Humans vs. The Monsters as a scenario has the big plus that it will be easier for the players to "identify with" the tech world and mourn it's loss if it's more comprehensible and comfortable for them, and I think humans-only is the way to do this.

Starfleet Vs. Melnibone also has a lot of traction. In this set up, you emphasize the progressiveness of the future. Meanwhile, the magic invaders are one race and one feudal society that ported over their political structures wholesale. This makes the bloodline thing really easy to justify. You have magic if you're an elf, and not otherwise. Putting racial supremacy of the elves on the table also makes humans, calamari, and asari from around the world feel like they're "in it together" in a way that a haphazard mix of elf, goblin, and vampire overlords would.

That said, if you're going to mix them, you have my blessing--provided you remember some good principles. Your Turian Vs. Shifter example is a brilliant example of what not to do and in my next post I will explain why it is fucking stupid.

(Preview: Earth can't have a warrior race, furryies should come from one world not both, and since you don't get twice the design space just because you have two worlds, you don't waste 2 slots of violent cats.)
Last edited by Orion on Sat Apr 02, 2011 4:13 am, edited 2 times in total.
Lago PARANOIA
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

Good point, Orion. I mean, I try and try to include the fighter and his dumbass friends in on the action, but they're just no good, you feeling me? If someone wants to play Rambo or Master Chief, then they need to find a Genetix lab and get turned into a supersoldier after having a couple of cyberlimbs grafted onto them.


That said, there's several reasons why I put the setting in an 'after the end' setting so to speak.

The first one is that the way war works in a modern world. In a fantasyverse it's possible to have several wars going on all at once without it impacting the setting. If the Fire Nation is fighting the Winged Horde, big deal. You're two countries over exploring a ruin. This isn't so for modern wars, especially ones big enough to render all or most of the nations as failed states. If there is a big enough faction to be in 'the war' then the entire game becomes about the war. Your characters don't go on adventures to the Salt Flats of Utah on their rusty motorcycles in order to look for leftover gasoline, because who cares about that shit when there's a WORLD WAR going on?

The second is that a worldwide war also devalues the individual characters. In a Mad Max or Fist of the North Star setting it is totally possible for a small group of people, even a bunch of mundanes, to save a city. In a modern world war, it's not. The point of the whole endeavor was to make it so that both sides are devastated so that individual heroics have more of an impact without inflating things to DBZ power levels.

As far as setting it on Earth goes, there's no reason why this has to be the case. It could just as easily have happened on a moon or a non-Eartling inhabited planet. I just chose Earth because the fantasy world is already introducing a bunch of wild and woolly critters; having alien critters on top of that is mostly pointless, especially since the alien critters won't probably be all that much of a challenge after a certain point anyway.
Last edited by Lago PARANOIA on Sat Apr 02, 2011 4:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by hyzmarca »

Lago PARANOIA wrote: The first one is that the way war works in a modern world. In a fantasyverse it's possible to have several wars going on all at once without it impacting the setting. If the Fire Nation is fighting the Winged Horde, big deal. You're two countries over exploring a ruin. This isn't so for modern wars, especially ones big enough to render all or most of the nations as failed states. If there is a big enough faction to be in 'the war' then the entire game becomes about the war. Your characters don't go on adventures to the Salt Flats of Utah on their rusty motorcycles in order to look for leftover gasoline, because who cares about that shit when there's a WORLD WAR going on?

The second is that a worldwide war also devalues the individual characters. In a Mad Max or Fist of the North Star setting it is totally possible for a small group of people, even a bunch of mundanes, to save a city. In a modern world war, it's not. The point of the whole endeavor was to make it so that both sides are devastated so that individual heroics have more of an impact without inflating things to DBZ power levels.
This isn't entirely true. There are several wars going on right now, America is involved in two of them. The thing is that these wars are mostly taking place in crapholes no one cares much about and don't spill over into your living room. Those that are mildly important to Westerners generally involve huge states curb-stomping small ones and then fighting low-level guerrilla conflicts. But you can have wars going on all over the globe without it being a huge deal. Because there are wars going on all over the globe right now, and it's not a huge deal. You just have to make sure that the 'Mericans and Europeans keep their MTV.

Look at the average war-torn African country where twelve-year-old conscripts are chopping up entire villages and then count exactly how many shits the average Westerner gives.


It's also quite possible for small bands to save a city in these conflicts. Look at the conflict in Libya right now, it's mostly being fought by untrained civilian militia in cheap-ass Japanese pickup trucks and SUVs.

The most successful fighting vehicle in the world isn't the Abrams or the Challenger, it's a Toyota land cruiser with a rocket launcher bolted on the back. In fact, it is quite possible for a small competent band with pickup trucks and anti-tank rockets to absolutely annihilate a less competent armored force with actual tanks. This has actually been done before. In the Chad-Libyan Conflict, the Chadians were so equipped, and pretty much gutted the Libyan force.

The Libyan rebels in the current conflict needed American air support to accomplish the same thing, but they're an incompetent bunch of rag-tag misfits with little formal training between them. And they don't have very many ATGMs.


My only real complaint is the idea of governments collapsing because of disaster. The human response to disaster is not to break apart, it is to pull closer together. When shit hits the fan people become far more altruistic than they would otherwise be, and far more receptive to reasonable authority figures. There are always some individuals who go against the grain, but it is far easier to hold a country together in the face of disaster than it is otherwise. Even if the government is decapitated they'll always be someone willing to step up to the plate, and most would be willing to follow that person. When governments do collapse in the real world, it is usually because of gross mismanagement and incompetence, not disaster.

My recommendation, for the sake of both verisimilitude and gameplay potential, would be to divide the world into tiers. You've got MTVland at the top, able to maintain some semblance of pre-fall society and technology, followed in order by Slightly Fuckedland, Fuckedland, Really Fuckedland, The Fuckedland Islands, Totally Fuckedland, and Gang-Banged by the 1977 Dallas Cowboys Land.

Your default location can be the Mad Max wasteland of Really Fuckedland.
The existence of something resembling old nation-states who have the ability to project power but are limited by MAD can provide extra political tensions and can be a source of both secret agents and contraband.

More importantly, it gives options to players who like the idea but don't want to use the default setting. That's one of the good things about Shadowrun, Seattle, Portland, and the Yucatan are very different settings suited to very different game styles.

I'd also suggest remembering that science is a method of study, one that can be applied to magic just as easily as any other observable phenomenon, and is far too useful to dismiss. The fact that magic will be under rational scientific scrutiny means that it needs to be clearly defined and you need to be very careful with what you let it do.

The other thing I'd suggest is to remember the Mongols. China changed them more than they changed it. The invaders are going to suffer huge socio-political pressures and will not be able to maintain their cultures. The most likely result is a creole of magicland and techland cultures, one that will shape the leaders as much as anyone.

Oh, and Rambo is a perfectly good archetype if you give him a .50BMG. Melee might suck, but never underestimate the power of a guy with the gun. Shop Smart; Shop S-Mart.

You're average Rambo-esque special-forces archetype is going to be based around equipment and skills, with a focus in diplomacy, survival, and stealth. He's the guy who is going to go into a city, recruit and train local resistance fighters, and engage in hit-and run guerrilla attacks. His keywords are speed, surprise, and overwhelming force. Hit fast, hit hard, and fade away.

He isn't a high fantasy character. He's dirty, the dirtiest player in the game, in fact. He isn't strong enough to take on a dragon, so he cheats and stacks the odds in his favor. He lies, steals, blows stuff up, shoots people in the back of the head from half a mile away, and otherwise makes up for his inability to measure up to high fantasy characters by playing his own game with his own rules.

The important design consideration is making such tactics effective.

Which brings us to another important question, how do fantasy characters deal with IEDs and suicide bombers?

If the moral of your game is that high fantasy sucks you do not want to fall into high fantasy tropes, you want to subvert them at every opportunity.

And finally, what about the Gods. Are these unstoppable monstrosities? Or can any idiot with a vorpal sword instakill Zeus on a natural 20? Are we deaing with spirits or physical beings? Are they the gods who don't do anything or do they stop around and make everyone kneel before Zod? These are important considerations.
Last edited by hyzmarca on Sat Apr 02, 2011 6:08 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Post by Orion »

Thank you Hyzmarca, I had a rant on this all ready and then I forgot about it. Yeah, world wars vs. local authority has nothing to do with fantasy vs. science and everything to do with whether there are world superpowers that can project force onto other continents. You can do away with them pretty readily without magic, should you so choose.

EDIT: To what degree scientific methods will be used to analyze Magic is actually up in the air. Sure, it could and *probably* will happen, but remember that the invaders may have very different values from us and may not be keen on accepting the scientific method, especially if they're medieval theocrats.
Last edited by Orion on Sat Apr 02, 2011 6:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Lokathor »

FatR wrote: - The whole event was a natural (?) cataclysm, that left both worlds in utter ruins, but impacted the magic world and its population (relatively) much less. The setting is about surviving the post-apocalyptic wasteland, now filled with monsters beyond human reason and rogue magic-users (in this scenario you don't need any sort of advanced civilization or organization on the magic world part, quite to the contrary, so various magical tyrants and monsters would just shrug and try to do their old thing in the new world), trying to carve domains for themselves, while attempting to recover the old technology and set the world right.
This sounds kinda like what the "funhouse" dungeons of DnD 1e would occasionally be. Modern or future technology in a medieval world? why the fuck not?

It's not always the most well received kind of dungeon because it's so horribly out of theme. Except if that is your theme from the start, then maybe it would work out and people would accept it.
Last edited by Lokathor on Sat Apr 02, 2011 11:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Username17 »

You need to tone down how awesome you're making the future setting, because if it gets too out there in future tech, the players won't be able to understand how it fit together and therefore won't be able to extrapolate how it could have fallen apart. The key point of the setting is that science is a superior way to run the world, but it requires a lot of people and objects working together to keep working. Like a factory assembly line versus the village blacksmith. But that means that the tech has to be set close enough to today's that people can comprehend pieces that are missing. As soon as it goes to "We need more crystal spheres for the mophonous engine" player disengagement is going to go apeshit.

So what you're looking for is an advanced and positive near-future setting. It doesn't need or even want to be a hand holding egalitarian utopia. And really for it to fall apart, all you really need is enough trade disruption so that the systems that keep the billions of people alive don't work any more. So a basic global fuel and food shortage and you've got global populations contracting from say 8 billion to something more like 2 billion. That would get your total collapse. And I could totally buy some sort of RIFTS style world overlap thing providing both.

So your "Cataclysm" destroys the global economy of both worlds. This causes famine, war, plague, and panic to devastate the science world. In some number of years the populations are a quarter of what they were before the great event. On the other side, there never was a global economy because scorpicore raids were just a part of life. So the "Cataclysm" is just a slightly higher death rate for a while. Everything's bullshit and populations were already low, so people having to live in the woods for a while is no big deal.

And then you pull out some old standards like dark lords from the fantasy world deciding that they need to conquer the other world and pitiless gods running around being jerks. And that's where you pull out the PCs.

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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

hyzmarca wrote: The existence of something resembling old nation-states who have the ability to project power but are limited by MAD can provide extra political tensions and can be a source of both secret agents and contraband.
Having MAD is not a good idea, because in heroic fantasy there are totally people and factions whose goal it is to 'kill everything'. Now while it's totally okay to have WMD like nukes and zombie apocalypse rituals floating about and we can even occasionally have cities wiped off of the map, this can't be the default state of the world.

This is why I proposed that the setting started off with world peace for a period of time, that way it'd give people a reason to destroy most of their superweapons such that we don't have a magical apocalypse and caches of doomsday weapons running about.
But you can have wars going on all over the globe without it being a huge deal. Because there are wars going on all over the globe right now, and it's not a huge deal. You just have to make sure that the 'Mericans and Europeans keep their MTV.
This isn't the real world, though. You can't just have the post-industrial nations ignoring what's going on, because fantasy apocalypses don't work that way. The tarrasque will not be polite enough to restrict its rampages to the western coast of Africa. Earthquakes will totally happen right in the middle of Austria for no reason. Japan can totally look forward to having Slimy Doom pop up in its midst. Even if the countries don't give a care if a failed state like North Korea goes up in flames, they should care that the impetus for this has an equally likely chance of fucking them up, too.
The other thing I'd suggest is to remember the Mongols. China changed them more than they changed it. The invaders are going to suffer huge socio-political pressures and will not be able to maintain their cultures. The most likely result is a creole of magicland and techland cultures, one that will shape the leaders as much as anyone.
This is very true, this kind of cultural reverse assimilation takes dozens of year. While it's very possible that in the grim darkness of the distant future the Necrolord will be wearing ty-dye T-shirts, you don't actually have that long before the world passes the point of no return. That said, even though there's a universal fantasy gun control ban, the dark lords still do things like have secret computer labs and personal assassins armed with sniper rifles. It's just that the face of most of the armies that you see tend to be things like you see in Lord of the Rings or Willow. You won't actually get to see things like the Praetorian Guard on motorcycles until you gain several levels.

Which brings us to another important question, how do fantasy characters deal with IEDs and suicide bombers?
They don't. They just straight up absorb the losses. Fantasy governments don't flip off if someone turns into a werewolf in the middle of the bazaar and kills dozens of people before being put down. It's just a fact of life. And fantasy societies are so fragile that small-scale terrorist cells, even without having access to l33t superpowers, can totally take on the local village and WIN. Of course it's not much of a consolation prize; even if the Cowboys manage to take control of Tombstone it's not like they suddenly become more than a local force or get more than a few extra hundred bucks. Being the terrorist victors of a couple of villages is going to get you even less bennies, because at least Tombstone has a functioning industry and outside trade. Depending on how the Lord feels he might even make you his new vassals if you accept. Life back then really was that shitty.
FrankTrollman wrote:You need to tone down how awesome you're making the future setting, because if it gets too out there in future tech, the players won't be able to understand how it fit together and therefore won't be able to extrapolate how it could have fallen apart. The key point of the setting is that science is a superior way to run the world, but it requires a lot of people and objects working together to keep working. Like a factory assembly line versus the village blacksmith. But that means that the tech has to be set close enough to today's that people can comprehend pieces that are missing. As soon as it goes to "We need more crystal spheres for the mophonous engine" player disengagement is going to go apeshit.
Fair enough. What differences and similarities do you suggest between technology and social science between the fictional near-future and our world should this setting have?

I recommend, among other things:
  • A nascent but thriving transhumanism industry. In order not to make it seem like a bad thing, it had to have been pretty much universal to reap most of the benefits of it so you don't have a Gattaca-style dystopia. You want that because you want a way to have super-strong bruisers and such without having to resort to Charles Atlas Superpowers. But I also personally want that because I am sick and tired of science fiction pushing its 'No Transhumanism Allowed!' bullshit down our throats. At the very least it should give the vast majority of tech world humans lots of health and extended lifespans.
  • The computer industry about where it is right now. This isn't very hard to imagine, since we can totally carry around the entire contents of the New York public library on a few CDs like RIGHT NOW which is important because it gives people an easy way and goal to get the infrastructure as to which to rebuild society. Things like the Internet and miniaturized computers like an iPod we can take or leave; I say keep them in, because frankly it's embarrassing watching writers (who grew up in the 70's-90's) stumble around with trying to write old-style stories with this tech. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIZVcRccCx0
  • The weapons industry should have futuristic non-kinetic weapons replacing the ones we have right now. This is more to tide over peoples' willing suspension of disbelief. As amazing as it might sound, people are more willing to visualize someone shooting a dragon with a phaser or a pulse rifle than with a submachine gun. This also means that weapons you can't readily replace like grenades should have a different design than the real world; the green and chrome pineapple grenades can be replaced by shiny gunmetal spheres. We also want to switch to futuristic weapons in order to clamp down on the number of gun enthusiast arguments at the table and on the boards--there are a surprising number of gun enthusiasts in the hobby and I don't want to alienate them.
  • Society should be slightly more enlightened than it is right now. I mean, fuck, we have extraterrestrials and shit, things like still having leftover sexism and racism is not only kind of twee but also reduces sympathy for the tech worlders.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by Orion »

Writing a non-racist and non-sexist society is REALLY HARD, and it would have to work so differently from ours that players won't know how to "put the world back together."
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

Orion wrote: Writing a non-racist and non-sexist society is REALLY HARD, and it would have to work so differently from ours that players won't know how to "put the world back together."
It's not really that hard to imagine, it's just hard to imagine our society getting from point A to point B. But considering how crazy shit was just 50-60 years ago even in the so-called 1st World Nations it seems like a pretty safe extrapolation that 80-90 years from now that kind of thing will be gone in all but the most backwards of places.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by Orion »

How are children raised? Who takes care of elderly relatives? Etc. Etc. "Women's work" keeps society running, figuring out how to do without it the stuff of literary socialist sci-fi a la Ursula Le Guin. But it's not easy to roleplay a Le Guin character.
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Post by Almaz »

Orion wrote:Writing a non-racist and non-sexist society is REALLY HARD, and it would have to work so differently from ours that players won't know how to "put the world back together."
While non-racist in an exceedingly strict sense of "does not ever think about someone's skin colour/background" is unlikely, as it is difficult for us to both acknowledge cultural differences and not think about how those cultural differences could be negative, it not being part of the society is actually pretty easy. In my life at least, interacting with people of my generation, I have always noted far more classism than racism anyways, though this may have to do with my largely urban-centric life.

But more likely, we're simply positing a world where everyone who voted for Strom Thurmond (or at least would have voted for Strom Thurmond after he filibustered the Civil Rights Act) is dead and gone. This hypotehtical society might hold incredibly bizarre beliefs, but race simply isn't a big deal anymore since the last person to bitch about it is 20 years dead. And you simply say "yeah, racism kinda died out in the literal sense of died", and don't write fundamentally racist organizations in to the game.

As far as sexism, and women's work... you... simply have more men doing that work? Is it that hard to imagine that in the future of a society which has had someone who is legally male get pregnant and give birth that what "men" do is a hell of a lot fuzzier? I'm not saying sexism is going to completely go away in the strict sense of no one talking about it ever, but as a widespread belief it will be dead and regarded as a strangeness of the before times.
Last edited by Almaz on Sat Apr 02, 2011 6:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

By both parents? Or if it's a breadwinner/homemaker situation then by whichever parent would prefer to stay at home.

Yes, 'women's work' is needed to keep society running but there's no need for it to be done by women--I mean, damn, how many households are run by one or two male parents today? And of course there's just the issue that in the not-so-distant future of 2080 or whatever a lot of household processes will be automated; at least in the richer nations. Even though any good sociology book will still tell you that the amount of household work even in progressive places is still very lopsided, compared to what it was two generations ago it's still quite a lot of progress.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by Grek »

Including aliens into the setting means including reasonably easy interstellar transportation so that the aliens can get to Earth in the first place. This means all 9 planets in the solar system, their moons and whatever other planets/solar systems the aliens come from. This is probably alot more setting than you need or even want. I'd recomend ditching the alien subplot.

Instead, kill two birds with one stone and include AI. Households and factories are both kept functioning by automatic systems while both spouses divide their time between doing non-menial labour and raising the children. Human equivilent AI exists and is a playable option.

This makes the world definately "better than ours", in that nobody has to till the fields in a third world country or slave 12 hours on an assembly line, but without being so much better that the players can't understand how things work.

Instead of having it so that there are literally no soliders, make it so that most wars are fought with drones that have hard, firmware implanted, "Do Not Kill Humans" programming in them to prevent human casualties in wars. These robots will, of course, be unwilling to shoot elfs or fantasy humans either, since they're close enough to human to count.
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

Grek wrote: Including aliens into the setting means including reasonably easy interstellar transportation so that the aliens can get to Earth in the first place. This means all 9 planets in the solar system, their moons and whatever other planets/solar systems the aliens come from. This is probably alot more setting than you need or even want. I'd recomend ditching the alien subplot.
I do agree that it would be easier to get rid of the aliens, but the reason we had them in the first place was to get rid of those icky Tolkeinesque undertones of 'savage barbarians of a different race are destroying our culture!'

It's pretty much unavoidable if you have humans or AIs only versus fantasy races, but if part of the victims include tentacle critters, lizardfolk, vulcans, and whatnot then the focus shifts away from race and more towards class and power structure.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by Grek »

Increasing the number of races on either side will result in more focus being placed on races, not less. Having 5 distinct races from each setting means 10 different backgrounds and forces you to explain why race a is different from races B through J in a way that the reader cares about. And that means making each of the 10 races be really really different from the others in a way that would almost certainly make extreme racism not only common but entirely reasonable. And there's the issue of cluttering the setting, as I brought up before.

This can all be avoided by constraining yourself to four races: Modern Human, AI, Elf, Fantasy Human, who's defining traits are "Strong & Healthy and Educated", "Powerful, Intelligent Machine", "Strong, Healthy, Hated, Has Magic" and "Weak, Resists Magic, Not Hated."
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Post by hyzmarca »

Lago PARANOIA wrote:
hyzmarca wrote: The existence of something resembling old nation-states who have the ability to project power but are limited by MAD can provide extra political tensions and can be a source of both secret agents and contraband.
Having MAD is not a good idea, because in heroic fantasy there are totally people and factions whose goal it is to 'kill everything'. Now while it's totally okay to have WMD like nukes and zombie apocalypse rituals floating about and we can even occasionally have cities wiped off of the map, this can't be the default state of the world.
Nukes under lock and key aren't exactly much of a danger to anyone.

And destruction isn't really what MAD is about. The point is that a state which had nukes can't be beaten conventionally and thus is practically immune from attack. But it is also extremely limited in its own options. Even conflicts with minor powers can potentially flare up with global apocolypses, so nuclear states tend to tread very lightly.
But you can have wars going on all over the globe without it being a huge deal. Because there are wars going on all over the globe right now, and it's not a huge deal. You just have to make sure that the 'Mericans and Europeans keep their MTV.
This isn't the real world, though. You can't just have the post-industrial nations ignoring what's going on, because fantasy apocalypses don't work that way. The tarrasque will not be polite enough to restrict its rampages to the western coast of Africa. Earthquakes will totally happen right in the middle of Austria for no reason. Japan can totally look forward to having Slimy Doom pop up in its midst. Even if the countries don't give a care if a failed state like North Korea goes up in flames, they should care that the impetus for this has an equally likely chance of fucking them up, too.
Not ignore, triage. Sometimes you have to cut off a leg to save the patient. Sometimes you have to let a hopeless patient go and work on the ones you can save.

Besides, you're game is post-apocolypse, right? That ship has done sailed.
Which brings us to another important question, how do fantasy characters deal with IEDs and suicide bombers?
They don't. They just straight up absorb the losses. Fantasy governments don't flip off if someone turns into a werewolf in the middle of the bazaar and kills dozens of people before being put down. It's just a fact of life. And fantasy societies are so fragile that small-scale terrorist cells, even without having access to l33t superpowers, can totally take on the local village and WIN. Of course it's not much of a consolation prize; even if the Cowboys manage to take control of Tombstone it's not like they suddenly become more than a local force or get more than a few extra hundred bucks. Being the terrorist victors of a couple of villages is going to get you even less bennies, because at least Tombstone has a functioning industry and outside trade. Depending on how the Lord feels he might even make you his new vassals if you accept. Life back then really was that shitty.
The problem with that is it adds you take a piss-ant village today and tomorrow you're El Presidente for Life.

If you're going to deconstruct fantasy, you have to actually deconstruct it. You can't just port over fantasy tropes and say that they're terrible. If you want to do a game where the future turns into D&D and all the tropes are played perfectly straight, that's fine. But it doesn't sound like what you want to do.

It sounds like you want to do a game where the future deconstructs D&D, and that means that D&D will inevitably loose. Even if it weren't a deconstruction, if it were written at all plausibly, D&D would inevitably lose.

When magic gets into a fight with polisci 101, political science wins. The little guys, the suffering peasants, are ultimately more powerful than the wizard in his tower. They might not be able to hurl fireball, but that really doesn't matter.
Last edited by hyzmarca on Sun Apr 03, 2011 8:14 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by Grek »

Broken Code Tag; Please Fix!
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Post by Orion »

You could play this setting pretty easily in Apocalypse World, incidentally.
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Post by Username17 »

One of the main problems you seem to be having is explaining how a future society with billions of people could lose a war to a magic world filled with disorganized warring tribes competing for subsistence farmlands. That's a really tough sell, and you're struggling to explain it even to yourself. So just: don't do that.

Have the modern society collapse before vampire lords start crossing over. So the first thing that happens is you get a bunch of weird ass crazy shit like the "Year of Two Suns" and "The Seas of Ice" and the future society breaks apart. Food and energy production are insufficient to meet needs, global travel and communications are devastated beyond repair, and people fucking die. By the billions. And only then do actual portals start opening with actual zombie armies and dragons coming through.

So instead of trying to come up with reasons why a vampire count who can barely keep an evil valley in line back in magic land is suddenly able to take on coalition forces in Europe, you're positing that the vampire lord is here to dominate a group of survivors holding out in a warehouse living on canned food until the ash from the volcanoes settles down and they can start growing food again. If you kick future humanity down to "pockets of fearful survivors" before the mummy pharaohs start pushing people around, the existence of fantasy tropes like evil dungeons and wizard towers becomes explicable.

And then you can get straight to the deconstruction: the Evil Wizard really is just pushing around a small collection of isolated people. And as soon as the forward guards of civilization show up, that dude is going to be fucking arrested by the cops.

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Post by hyzmarca »

Lago PARANOIA wrote:
Grek wrote: Including aliens into the setting means including reasonably easy interstellar transportation so that the aliens can get to Earth in the first place. This means all 9 planets in the solar system, their moons and whatever other planets/solar systems the aliens come from. This is probably alot more setting than you need or even want. I'd recomend ditching the alien subplot.
I do agree that it would be easier to get rid of the aliens, but the reason we had them in the first place was to get rid of those icky Tolkeinesque undertones of 'savage barbarians of a different race are destroying our culture!'

It's pretty much unavoidable if you have humans or AIs only versus fantasy races, but if part of the victims include tentacle critters, lizardfolk, vulcans, and whatnot then the focus shifts away from race and more towards class and power structure.
Having it as white and black vs brown and yellow doesn't really work any better. You've still got the ebil savages and the mighty whitey, the fact that mighty whitey also comes in dark chocolate now doesn't change the undertones.

You change the undertones by making your fantasy characters real people instead of caricatures. That's hard, but it's the only way to actually work it without unfortunate implications.

The first way you do that is by determining that alignment, if it exists at all, is bullshit. Dropping alignment altogether would be easier, but wouldn't make such an extreme statement.

Take your always chaotic evil monstrous fantasy races and make them more civilized and more egalitarian than the standard "good" races, so that your modern humans have more in common with goblins, culturally, than they do with fantasy world humans. That commonality, of course, makes cooperation easier. Thus you often have modern humans and fantasy orks vs fantasy humans.

Cooperation between modern factions and fantasy factions is the important thing, as is actively discarding or deconstructing fantasy race tropes. Neither is difficult, both have been done before.

If you ever produce a situation where the protagonists can go into a cave and kill everyone there without any moral uncertainty you've made a huge mistake.
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Post by Fuchs »

Just make it "the evil primitive barbarians made up from various races and driven by evil ideologies and religions are threatening our way of life".
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