The Gaming Den

So I was reading, through all the tome stuff I could find, and you know what? I could not find a single epic feat or class. That's right, not one, now; it might just be me, but just to be safe. I'm putting together the Tome of Epicness.

That is, a compilation of epic material in the style of the tome material. As of now, this is just an idea thread, a place for people to post ideas and get feedback, anything that passes the bar will be moved to the final product. But first ground rules.

• Be civil: all feedback must be well mannered and as non-argumentative possible
  Be constructive: All comments must be constructive
  Be critical: You may not just say “I like it” or “I don’t like it” you have to give reasons WHY you do or do not like something.
  State what you’re reviewing: For the sake of clarity, tell us at the beginning of your post what material you’re talking about.
  Post impartially: This means you post feedback based on the merit of the material. Is it balanced, does it fit the theme presented, does it sound interesting, are all examples of merits that might be considered. You’re welcome to give your opinion as well, but you have to give an impartial critique of the content as well.
  Tell us what you’re talking about: Authors must explain the premise behind their work
  Don’t be defensive: Writers may defend their work, but please, don’t circle the wagons just because someone expressed a negative opinion, this goes hand in hand with being civil.[/b]

Epic combat feat template

Code: Select all

[table][b]Feat Name[/b] [Combat, epic] 
Flavor text
Prerequisites: prerequisites (must include +20 BAB I strongly suggest epic feats require more than that)
Benefits: This is a combat feat that scales with your Base Attack Bonus. 
+20: 
+21: 
+26: 
+31: 
+36: [/table]

Epic skill feat template

Code: Select all

[table][b]Feat Name[/b] [skill, epic]
Flavor text
Perquisites: perquisites: (Must include 23 ranks in proper skill I strongly suggest epic feats require more than that)
Benefits: This is a skill feat that scales with your ranks in (Name of Skill this feat applies to here)
23: 
24: 
29: 
34: 
39: [/table]

That’s it for this post keep an eye out for more. I'll also add a template for Classes to this post if someone doesn't beat me to it.

darkmaster wrote:

• Be civil: all feedback must be well mannered and as non-argumentative possible
  Be constructive: All comments must be constructive
  Be critical: You may not just say “I like it” or “I don’t like it” you have to give reasons WHY you do or do not like something.
  State what you’re reviewing: For the sake of clarity, tell us at the beginning of your post what material you’re talking about.
  Post impartially: This means you post feedback based on the merit of the material. Is it balanced, does it fit the theme presented, does it sound interesting, are all examples of merits that might be considered. You’re welcome to give your opinion as well, but you have to give an impartial critique of the content as well.
  Tell us what you’re talking about: Authors must explain the premise behind their work
  Don’t be defensive: Writers may defend their work, but please, don’t circle the wagons just because someone expressed a negative opinion, this goes hand in hand with being civil.[/b]

This is shit, and you are shit that for thinking it would fly. See how there is not a moderator title attached to your name? It's because you don't get to moderate.

If you post in this forum, you are subject to the standards of this forum. One of which is, you are going to be treated uncivily.

So... it's shit to ask people to act civilly towards other people in order to encourage an environment conducive to creativity and progress, instead of just chasing our tails all day in the same pointless, unproductive, argument? Perhaps I should find a forum that actually has standards.

Oh, and another thing, I'm just trying to point out my intent. If you must berate me further, please, PM me. I'd perfer to not clutter this thread.

darkmaster wrote:So... it's shit to ask people to act civilly towards other people in order to encourage an environment conducive to creativity and progress, instead of just chasing our tails all day in the same pointless, unproductive, argument? Perhaps I should find a forum that actually has standards.

Oh, and another thing, I'm just trying to point out my intent. If you must berate me further, please, PM me. I'd perfer to not clutter this thread.

It's shit to try to set rules when you can't enforce them, and they are pretty much the exact opposite of the rules that actually govern the forum.

I could elaborate further why "civility" has nothing to do with creativity or progress, and that this forum has proven many times over that you get a lot more done by posting a giant wall of fuck yous that get people to really think about things than pretending that bad ideas deserve respect.

Be civil: all feedback must be well mannered and as non-argumentative possible

Welcome to the Den. We will steal your car, burn your house, rape your wife, and kill your dog. Then we will say mean things to or about you. On the internet.

Post impartially: This means you post feedback based on the merit of the material. Is it balanced, does it fit the theme presented, does it sound interesting, are all examples of merits that might be considered. You’re welcome to give your opinion as well, but you have to give an impartial critique of the content as well.

This is not a thing that humans are actually capable of. Impartiality is hardwired to not happen to us except in situations of not giving a fuck.

Moving on to critique of the actual thread:

"Epic levels", which I suppose you use to mean levels >20, are not workable in 3eD&D. The numbers just break down, the people who worked on that stuff were not mathematically proficient enough to actually get anything to work, and monster and feat value divergence becomes even more absurd (Epic Spellcasting vs. Improved Low-Light Vision). Several classes have alluded to that by seriously just having the 20th level class feature be "X wins the game".

What exactly are the sorts of play you expect to make plausible with this that aren't possible in near-20th environments or just giving everyone Epic Spellcasting (a.k.a. Spells: the Bullshitting)?

Perhaps I should find a forum that actually has standards.

If you prefer passive-agression and forced politeness to forced intellectual honesty and barrels of cocks, you know where to find it.

Yeah. We have standards: standards of excellence. We enforce this by not pussyfooting around, by ruining someone's day if they post something shit. And well, your day is going to be ruined. I wouldn't get my hopes up for tomorrow, either.

If you really want passive-aggression instead of getting anything useful done, then please go right ahead and fuck off, we wouldn't want you here anyway.

On the topic of Epic: hahaha oh wow. No. Frank summed it up best with his Epic Progression for the Fire Mage. It was a joke, but it was still the same quality as the actual Epic book. Because Epic is a joke.

darkmaster wrote:So I was reading, through all the tome stuff I could find, and you know what? I could not find a single epic feat or class.

And there is fucking reason for that.

C'mon, guys, sure, this forum is a safe-haven for being an asshole (and it's fun to indulge, I'll admit), but do you really have to try so damn hard?

That said, any 'Tome of Epicness' would have to begin with a complete ground-up rewrite of the rules for epic and every single bit of material for it, because epic level play as laid out in the epic handbook is worth no one's time. Considering the Tomes have only begun to fix high-level (11-20) play by jury-rigging the shitty D&D 3.5 core product, the idea that you could take this jury-rigged (albeit fairly well jury-rigged) shitty core product and add another tier on top of it that even remotely begins to work... As everyone else has pointed it, this is really just sounding like a stupid idea.

The epic system would not require new, Tome-esque content. It would require a completely new imagining from the design level of how it works at all. And then new Tome-esque content. And compared to what you have to gain from just playing level 20 and handing out feats instead of levels, it hardly seems worth it. Especially since the system's going to suck anyway, due to the even FURTHER inflation of numbers those levels would presumably bring with them.

Epic was a shitty idea, shittily implemented, and you don't total your car then take it to get a paint job.

DSMatticus wrote:C'mon, guys, sure, this forum is a safe-haven for being an asshole (and it's fun to indulge, I'll admit), but do you really have to try so damn hard?

I can't speak for the others, but that isn't me trying to be an asshole, that's me dropping the act of being a polite and civilised person. Which we know I'm not.

The short answer to why I never put much effort into an Epic level overhaul is this:




Here's the slightly longer version: the arc of a D&D story goes through distinct stages. There's the beating up rats stage, there's the crawling around in a dungeon stage, there's the choosing your own damn quests stage, there's the running your own kingdom stage, and there is the fighting gods on an even footing stage. The first two are what went into the original "basic set" of D&D. The second two went into the "expert set", and finally the last stage got its own set called "Immortals". And you have to complete each one in turn (or at least, be able to complete each in turn), before the next one makes sense.

Currently, whether you're playing 3 vanilla or Tome patches, the "running a kingdom" thing doesn't work. It's incomplete, and you can't really do it. And that means that advancing to the god fighting stage is pointless. If you can't get through level 2, it doesn't matter how fleshed out level 3 is.

So the fact that making a workable Epic patch to D&D would be really hard is basically beside the point. There are no rules for being king or emperor, what difference would it make if there were rules for being god?

-Username17

I don't know. D&D is largely about stabbing people in the face. You can do that as an adventurer, mercenary or insane peasant. You can also do that as a god, going around punting other gods and stealing their divinity.

Running a kingdom doesn't really involve stabbing things, unless it's an expanded version of the "running a business... by turning all business problems into adventurers, where goblins raid your supplier or demons rock up next door to undercut you" thing. I mean, how many kings or emperors actually go around killing things? Aside from The Emperor, of course. Unless it actually IS "Emperor and Friends go around conquering worlds, with armies doing the boring bit", in which case it's the regular game but with fancy titles.

And really, would it be "you all end up kings of your own countries, and start dealing with each other in diplomatic ways? One player is king, the rest form his special guards/advisors? They are all a committee of leaders?

Actually, if you have ideas on how running a kingdom should work, I'd love to hear them, as in an IRC game, one character has become... Baroness Countess Overseer Fourth General Duchess, and I imagine Princess is next on the list. They might want to start doing less adventury things (possibly), despite what I said about 3E being all about stabby.

darkmaster wrote:So... it's shit to ask people to act civilly towards other people in order to encourage an environment conducive to creativity and progress, instead of just chasing our tails all day in the same pointless, unproductive, argument? Perhaps I should find a forum that actually has standards.

Did not know what forum he was on.

Like I've said before, I own the place and I don't get this kind of treatment unless I'm moderating. Get over yourself.

Game On,
fbmf

Wasn't the way they did Immortals that you basically started over as a brand new class at level 1? Just, Immortal level 1?

Or am I thinking of a completely different system?

And really? +36 to hit? What the fuck is the point of rolling a D20 when you get to add +36?

sabs wrote:And really? +36 to hit? What the fuck is the point of rolling a D20 when you get to add +36?

If the DCs for your level are in the 38-54 range, that d20 matters. Noticeably, that's the exact same size of range where it would matter if you were rolling with a bonus of +0, so the die roll actually doesn't matter any less at high levels unless you get numbers divergence.

The issue happens when you have a +38 and a +14 or whatever in the same party, at which point an obstacle that both are expected to overcome - like enemy AC - can't be a challenge for both characters. The actual absolute values of the bonuses don't mean fuck all except with either other people's bonuses or expected DCs to compare them to.

sabs wrote:Wasn't the way they did Immortals that you basically started over as a brand new class at level 1? Just, Immortal level 1?

Or am I thinking of a completely different system?

Yep. That's the one. Your old class was like a minor flavor thing.

And really? +36 to hit? What the fuck is the point of rolling a D20 when you get to add +36?

The variance is exactly the same. You could add thirty six or a hundred and thirty six and the variance would still be exactly the same. If the DC is also 36 points higher than when you were adding zero, the roll provides the same odds.

Adding ever larger numbers is not a problem unless you make it one by pulling back the curtain on the hedonic treadmill (4e) or allowing the numbers to diverge to the point where the game stops making sense (high level 3e). Getting +36 is not a problem. Getting a +36 when someone else in the party has a +17 is a problem. And getting a +36 because everyone at your level has exactly a +36 and it's your turn is a problem.

-Username17

It just seems that when you start adding that much to rolls, isn't it time to do a deflation and system change? Really after +15 the system starts to break down. But by +36, you start thinking to yourself maybe you should be using a different system with a different scale.

No, not really. As long as the rate at which the modifiers increase is comparable to the rate at which the DCs increase and the rate at which other people's modifiers increase, then the only reason to ever deflate the numbers is because computing the result of your check is intractable due to the size and number of modifers involved. If you do things correctly, that's not going to happen.

One of the benefits of using a dice+mod vs. DC system is that you can scale it up and down infinitely, and in both directions. Taking advantage of a feature of a system is not a reason you would want to stop using that particular system, that is dumb.

fbmf wrote: Did not know what forum he was on.

Like I've said before, I own the place and I don't get this kind of treatment unless I'm moderating. Get over yourself.

Game On,
fbmf

And the kicker there is that we usually give you worse when you are moderating

I love this forum so fucking much.

Also, I know we all agree that epic is stupid as hell, but what about referring to the game through levels 15-20 (or some other random high level range) as "Epic". At this point you're already within the realm of challenging some of the gods and shaking the world.

I think some of us already do that anyway <_<

FrankTrollman wrote:

sabs wrote:Wasn't the way they did Immortals that you basically started over as a brand new class at level 1? Just, Immortal level 1?

Or am I thinking of a completely different system?

Yep. That's the one. Your old class was like a minor flavor thing.
-Username17

Honestly I think that's the way to do it. Once you reach epic you're supposed to bitch slap great wyrms and combat gods on an even footing, and rail against Cthulhu for a mildly challenging afternoon. Your old class is flavour on what I'd be tempted to call "The Insta-gib Rule" which basically states "non-epic characters you attack must save vrs death, with a DC equal to 20+Character level." And that's all that happens. Peasants and elite guards alike basically toss acorns at you, and you smack them upside the head, and they save vrs death. Constructs with 20 or less HD are treated like inanimate objects. Then you just rebuild your character using a different scale of reference. The sword your Immortal Fighter starts out with is the Sword of Kas, rather than "That sword Casey the blacksmith fucked up but not quite enough to be thrown out or melted down, so he sold it to you for material cost because you sucked his cock." Your Immortal Wizard's piddling, doesn't matter that it's there familiar is Smyph, the Cat Whose Steps Are Death, and Whose Litterbox is the Shores of the Lethe, rather than "Pissant, the cat who shits in your robe despite getting litter box trained"

The funniest part about all this? The Topic creator seems to have run off after the reception he received. Oh, well. Not a big loss, really.

Quantumboost wrote:I think some of us already do that anyway <_<

I mostly lurk here, but I'd like to mention that most gods in my setting are within levels (or CRs if you insist) 16-23 for exactly this reason. There's not much need for epic play rules anyway, and I've been thinking in cases to be so liberal as to allow people to just multiclass through early epic levels. It probably wouldn't hold together for long though (spells in particular are a problem).

I haven't been run off, I'm just busy.