Game best inspiration for D&D empire-building rules?

[Lago PARANOIA]

So there I was, reading a Let's Play of Galactic Civlizations II and it occured to me as time went on that 'hey, wouldn't the basic resolution mechanics of this game be nicely ported over to a TTRPG for empire-construction'? Actually on reflection this probably isn't the best game since cultural details are pretty shallow.

So I ask to you, denners, what game (video, TTRPG, whatever) do you think would be best for depicting the growth and management of high-powered fantasy-era forces?

[Dean]

I'm gonna put in a vote for Heroes of Might and Magic (Three if I get to pick one in particular).

You would build "Stables" or "Port", or "Grand Walls" as opposed to caring about any kind of minutia and then you get real effects from making those things either in the form of big bunches of troops or in effects that you now have on your hero like extra movement (or whatever) from your sweet fresh horses.

Granted this would require some sort of "Troop" or "Swarm" template to be made that could allow you to theoretically fight 40 soldiers (or medusa's) without it being a tedious and absurd process.

[Username17]

I could see Heroes of Might and Magic 3. I would throw in a bit of Dominions 3 as well for the whole "searching for special sites" deal. Provinces should acquire tags that allow them to produce new things. Gaining tags should be part of predictable build queues like in HoMM3, but it should also be the result of adventuring and serendipity like how Dominions 3 special sites are found and appear as the result of random events.

But basically I think you want a tag system where things binarily exist or do not exist in a province because the "bar is half full" type production that you get in Warcraft is simply too fiddly to fuck with in a TTRPG.

-Username17

[hogarth]

I like Heroes of Might and Magic (I've only played I through III). But I think it would integrate poorly with D&D.

EDIT: How about Warlords 3 (Darklords Rising)? It's much softer on the resource management side, but it's much more D&D-like (e.g. in the sense of a band of heroes working together), IMO.

[Red_Rob]

So there I was, reading a Let's Play of Galactic Civlizations II

Off Topic/ If you like GC2 LP's this was one of the best I've read

I remember Necromunda had a nicely abstract territory system. Each territory you held simply had a profitability value and maybe a special rule. Each "turn" you rolled your profits, bought guns and troops, and fought a random battle over one of your territories. D&D could use a similar system if you want to keep the focus on the adventuring rather than simply having sessions of empire building.

[Swordslinger]

You need something that fits the flavor of high level D&D and doesn't require simulating the entire world at once.

This throws games like Risk and Civilization right out. No DM is going to simulate every nation at once. It's just not going to happen, so you might as well forget about it.

Heroes of Might and Magic is probably your best bet, though you'd have to drop the idea that human armies can compete, because it doesn't fit with the flavor of high level D&D. It's also battle focused and not focused on Sim City. All that stuff is very D&D. What you will have to do though is expand the tech trees, and have most of the construction of stuff done during downtime and the only thing you do during wartime is troop recruitment. Building your bone dragon lair is something you do between wars and building up a base is gradual.

[Prak]

I think a somewhat simplified version of Civ would be ok. You wouldn't necessarily want to include the tech research, but a simple list of "Things what you can build" with build times/costs and maintenance costs, and the cultural traits of later games, would be a decent way to do it, and the cultural traits could actually have two sets of stats, what they do for your civ, and what they do for you. The Social mechanisms could be useful too, (Your empire is a despotism, you rule with absolute authority, and get no real benefits, but also no real downsides. Your empire is a monarchy, these things get better, these things get worse).

You need something that fits the flavor of high level D&D and doesn't require simulating the entire world at once.

This throws games like Risk and Civilization right out. No DM is going to simulate every nation at once. It's just not going to happen, so you might as well forget about it.

The GM wouldn't need to really simulate all the nations/empires at once, he would only need a general idea of the cultural traits, what government it's using, and maybe the overall happiness of the people. So... what he already keeps in mind, just with actual mechanics dependent upon it.

[Swordslinger]

The GM wouldn't need to really simulate all the nations/empires at once, he would only need a general idea of the cultural traits, what government it's using, and maybe the overall happiness of the people. So... what he already keeps in mind, just with actual mechanics dependent upon it.

You do when you're looking at people to attack or diplomatize with. It's important to know if you're getting into a war you can't win or not. At that point, you really do want a risk-style overview of the world to know where to plan strategically, because that's what Civilization is all about.

You check your weakest neighbor and invade him.

[Username17]

The GM wouldn't need to really simulate all the nations/empires at once...

Of course he wouldn't. But the thing you're forgetting is that you are arguing with a 4rry. Swordslinger seriously believes that it is a bad thing when the rules are capable of generating results for things other than fixed fights where the PCs beat up monsters that have little or no chance against them. That isn't hyperbole, Swordslinger has said in exhaustive detail that he believes it would be a bad thing if the rules were capable of assigning stats to neutral barnyard animals or generating a fight between NPC assassins an NPC king. Really. Not that it would be a bad thing if you were required to spend some amount of table time doing that, but merely the rule system being able to do that at all would be a bad thing somehow. This is the sort of thing that 4rries actually believe.

So when Swordslinger is bitching about generating every country on the planet, he isn't concerned that you'd be sitting there rolling dice for all 450 kingdoms. That is 4rry code for being upset that it is possible to apply the rules for what PC countries do to what other countries do.

Let's just say: I do not share his concerns. At all.

-Username17

[Swordslinger]

So when Swordslinger is bitching about generating every country on the planet, he isn't concerned that you'd be sitting there rolling dice for all 450 kingdoms. That is 4rry code for being upset that it is possible to apply the rules for what PC countries do to what other countries do.

When you run a strategic level game with a world map, dealing with armies and kingdoms, then you have a lot of kingdoms on your board at once. That's only natural.

All provinces a PC may want to conquer have to be stated out in the new system, because you may well be conquering it because it has good supplies of lumber or a diamond mine. And if you plan on attacking a nation you want to know how many troops it has.

And guess who has to come up with all that? The DM.

You're asking him to populate an entire strategic map and play a totally different game.

Now it's kinda of typical 3E player response that you can just ignore the rules out there and cut corners, but at that point, doesn't it prove the rules are bad because you're not using them? You'll have the best rules for NPCs on the planet that nobody uses. Just something to think about.

All I'm saying is that your DM probably isn't going to want to go and write up all these kingdoms from the start. Doing a war style quest like a HoMaM scenario is doable, because the scenario has a directed goal, and a definted number of opponents.

Doing an open-ended Civilization style sandbox isn't going to happen in a strongly defined homebrew system, because nobody is going to bother doing all that prep work.

[Prak]

So when Swordslinger is bitching about generating every country on the planet, he isn't concerned that you'd be sitting there rolling dice for all 450 kingdoms. That is 4rry code for being upset that it is possible to apply the rules for what PC countries do to what other countries do.

When you run a strategic level game with a world map, dealing with armies and kingdoms, then you have a lot of kingdoms on your board at once. That's only natural.

All provinces a PC may want to conquer have to be stated out in the new system, because you may well be conquering it because it has good supplies of lumber or a diamond mine. And if you plan on attacking a nation you want to know how many troops it has.

And guess who has to come up with all that? The DM.

You're asking him to populate an entire strategic map and play a totally different game.

Now it's kinda of typical 3E player response that you can just ignore the rules out there and cut corners, but at that point, doesn't it prove the rules are bad because you're not using them? You'll have the best rules for NPCs on the planet that nobody uses. Just something to think about.

All I'm saying is that your DM probably isn't going to want to go and write up all these kingdoms from the start. Doing a war style quest like a HoMaM scenario is doable, because the scenario has a directed goal, and a definted number of opponents.

Doing an open-ended Civilization style sandbox isn't going to happen in a strongly defined homebrew system, because nobody is going to bother doing all that prep work.

Dude, I fucking did that as a novice DM*. I figured out what the expected annual income of a necromancy academy was purely from getting some pumpkin themed students to walk around magically growing pumpkins for eight hours a day, every god damned day. NET. I decided how much the students were paid, what a fair price for pumpkins you can essentially pull out of your ass is, what they pay the merchants who take them to other places, and so on.
Then I did it with evil undead bee honey. The Academy had more money than some kingdoms.
And that was for a single fucking school, a school that was a world player and had a city spring up around it, but one fucking school.
So if you want to be a pussy who says "[whine]But populating the world with even a video game's amount of accuracy and detail is too much wooooorrrrrkkkkk [/whine]" than fine, don't play on that scale, run friday night beer and pretzels, street level "fighter beats up on thugs," and just hang out, I'm not going to tell you that's a bad way to play (though I might suggest a system that actually covers that in it's rulesbook, Cyberpunk). But we're talking about simulating kingdoms so the level 12 fighter knows who the fuck to invade, and who to send his pretty daughters with sex-toy IQs to marry. That is literally the point of this thread, if you don't want to do that, then I'm sure we can schedule some time for you with the barrel of cocks out back.

(*Predicting No True Scotsman imminent.)

[Username17]

Better than that: you only have to generate resources for provinces that the PCs actually invest in scouting out. Since the PCs aren't going to be spying on island provinces two continents over, it is a waste of time to roll them up at all.

The PCs get some rumors from around the continent and some basic topological information, and everything else they have to look up if they want to find it out. The rules just have to be able to go full detail on any part of the world in case the PCs decide that they really like the sound of "The Heron Coast" and take off to go start up a kingdom there.

-Username17

[hogarth]

Dude, I fucking did that as a novice DM*.

Let me take a wild guess: you were a single student, not a married guy with kids and a full time job.

[Prak]

Dude, I fucking did that as a novice DM*.

Let me take a wild guess: you were a single student, not a married guy with kids and a full time job.

Yeah, I am. and? I'm sure even you married guys have a single friend with nothing better to do that you could farm it out to.

[hogarth]

Dude, I fucking did that as a novice DM*.

Let me take a wild guess: you were a single student, not a married guy with kids and a full time job.

Yeah, I am. and? I'm sure even you married guys have a single friend with nothing better to do that you could farm it out to.

I'm not criticizing, I'm just remembering my student days...

[fbmf]

Let me take a wild guess: you were a single student, not a married guy with kids and a full time job.

Yeah, I am. and? I'm sure even you married guys have a single friend with nothing better to do that you could farm it out to.

I'm not criticizing, I'm just remembering my student days...

It took me two years, but I'm currently on my fourth draft of a PHB for my Tome-inspired rule set and a second draft of the DMG. I did this while married with a full time job. I have continued to work on it (though more slowly) even though my wife was pregnant, my daughter was born, and I've started grad school.

It helps a lot that my wife is a gamer and understands the importance of what I am doing and can even help out.

Game On,
fbmf

[Antumbra]

Better than that: you only have to generate resources for provinces that the PCs actually invest in scouting out. Since the PCs aren't going to be spying on island provinces two continents over, it is a waste of time to roll them up at all.

The PCs get some rumors from around the continent and some basic topological information, and everything else they have to look up if they want to find it out. The rules just have to be able to go full detail on any part of the world in case the PCs decide that they really like the sound of "The Heron Coast" and take off to go start up a kingdom there.

-Username17

And of course, even if they do spread their Intelligence Assets over as many countries as you've bothered to name, unless they have some ungodly cadre of Diplomancer Scouts the information you have to generate is limited to no more depth than the resources invested to each country. The more country skeletons you need to build, the less meat they need on their bones.

It would be interesting if those human resources were sidestory characters, that players could be expected to control for Key Events. Perhaps only if there was a secure line of communication or divination - a session where the PC's are a squad of saboteurs at the Siege of Trante Keep or a spy hunting party chasing down someone who stole PC secrets.

It would slow down the overgame massively though.

[Chamomile]

Random generation tables are your friend. Have a few different tables for generating dominant race, natural resources, and infrastructure based on regional demographics, climate, and prosperity of the region as determined by DM fiat, respectively. New territory generated every sixty seconds. Should take no more than an hour or two to populate the average-sized D&D world. If your DM decides not to bother generating new territories until after the PC borders are close enough that it could conceivably matter, you can cut that time down a lot.

[Swordslinger]

Dude, I fucking did that as a novice DM*.

Let me take a wild guess: you were a single student, not a married guy with kids and a full time job. ;)

Yeah, I am. and? I'm sure even you married guys have a single friend with nothing better to do that you could farm it out to.

I'm not surprised. But people willing to put that much effort into game preparation are few and far between.

It's hard to ever find a mid or high level 3E game for good reason. Most DMs (and yes, I include myself in that category) just don't want to deal with the preparation. Now, I realize you guys hate that, but it is the majority opinion.

The majority of DMs don't want to prepare a bunch of information they'll never use. It's why the HoMaM set-up is superior, because you're actually designing something that looks like a quest, as opposed to a strategical simulation. And it's actually something your average DM can prepare in a week.

And it's not only initial preparation, it's also maintenance. When your other countries are on the board and use PC rules, that means they get "turns" in the country building sense, so you have to individually track what each one is doing and are constantly updating that stuff.

I don't know about you guys, but I got into D&D because I wanted to have fun, not because I wanted to simulate doing my taxes. If I want to play Civilization, I'll just play that PC game. There are even mods that let you make your own custom maps, so you might as well just do that for your PCs. It's a heck of a lot easier than rolling out in tabletop.

[RadiantPhoenix]

Rolling up a kingdom should be about as difficult as rolling up a character.

[Prak]

Let me take a wild guess: you were a single student, not a married guy with kids and a full time job.

Yeah, I am. and? I'm sure even you married guys have a single friend with nothing better to do that you could farm it out to.

I'm not surprised. But people willing to put that much effort into game preparation are few and far between.

It's hard to ever find a mid or high level 3E game for good reason. Most DMs (and yes, I include myself in that category) just don't want to deal with the preparation. Now, I realize you guys hate that, but it is the majority opinion.

Dude, again, if you don't want to play at the level where Fighter is checking intel on neighbouring kingdoms and sending lovely daughters off as gifts of appeasement, that's fine, you don't have to, but leave this thread. We don't care what a beer and pretzels DM says about this matter.

The majority of DMs don't want to prepare a bunch of information they'll never use. It's why the HoMaM set-up is superior, because you're actually designing something that looks like a quest, as opposed to a strategical simulation. And it's actually something your average DM can prepare in a week.

And it's not only initial preparation, it's also maintenance. When your other countries are on the board and use PC rules, that means they get "turns" in the country building sense, so you have to individually track what each one is doing and are constantly updating that stuff.

I don't know about you guys, but I got into D&D because I wanted to have fun, not because I wanted to simulate doing my taxes. If I want to play Civilization, I'll just play that PC game. There are even mods that let you make your own custom maps, so you might as well just do that for your PCs. It's a heck of a lot easier than rolling out in tabletop.

Why do you think that keeping track of a few kingdoms and what's going on in them is some special, extra amount of work? A DM should be doing that anyway, and by letting the players take care of one or more is actually reducing DM work load.

[Antumbra]

Had a quick look, found one attempt at a Random Fantasy Nation Generator:

http://arcana.wikidot.com/random-nations

It's incomplete, awkward and hard to update. But it wouldn't be more than ten pages of work to flesh out a goodly set of tables and brief explanations.

It might be useful to give a way of skewing the results, probably just an instruction to add or subtract XdY-Z to the roll.

But it certainly wouldn't be much work, even Special Locations and Cultural Events tables aren't difficult.

Anyway, aside from do you guys think it would be a good idea to have the PC's attributes directly influence Empire related tasks? I mean, obviously it would in cases where they are personally crushing resistance or crafting a treaty, but in the case of an enemy empire sending infiltrating spies - should the PC Spymaster's stats be used or add... "morale" or similar to the Territory Security roll?

Should there even be defined PC's, rather than Organisations with statted members?

[Winnah]

I have been drawing some inspiration from card games. mainly Lo5R. Holdings, fortifications and events.

I like the idea of random generation though. Simplifies the task of developing new areas. Also leaves room for customizing a unique empire.

[Username17]

Random generation also has the advantage of being able to have different charts for different climates and regions. So the MC doesn't have to know precisely where the pepper fields are, the PCs know that if they want to get them, they'll want to go to Maztica, because pepper resources appear on the Maztican province chart and not on the Sword Coast chart.

This leads to a very realistic feeling to the world as a whole. You look at the uncharted swamp wastes and you get the impression that there are probably some lizard kingdoms or necropolises there, because you've heard vague rumors to that effect. And there probably are, but of course, there might not be.

-Username17

[Zinegata]

Are we talking about a boardgame here, or are we talking about a computer game?