The Gaming Den

So, polling around both online and offline has led me to conclude that even though Winds of Fate is a superior system to pretty much everything ever tried or proposed for a game as complex as D&D, there's just too much whiny grognard inertia for it to catch on. Much like New Coke. This leads me to believe that it needs to first be tested with another TTRPG, probably from scratch, so we can accumulate some success stories and port it over to D&D.


Personally I think that the best testbed system for this kind of thing would be Urban Fantasy. You know, like early Bleach, Sailor Moon, low-mid superhero comics, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, etc.. Both because that niche is unexplored (unless you count Shadowrun, which is a very specific brand of Urban Fantasy) but also because expectations for that genre aren't as crystallized as others.

I'm down with an urban fantasy system, but it should probably be Winds of Fate-Lite. Like having a bunch of draw cards so players can still make actual tactical decisions (that's where hardcore WoF hangs up for me: I can't choose what I'm going to do round-by-round).

Even if it's Red is Offense, Black is Defense, Face is Super-Move, I'd be cool with that.

Lago PARANOIA wrote:Both because that niche is unexplored (unless you count Shadowrun, which is a very specific brand of Urban Fantasy)

Shadowrun hits me as a bit of a bad fit thematically for WoF anyway. It's got enough going on where combat isn't the crux of what many characters do and what combat there is tends to be based on blowing people the fuck up or shooting them right in the face with little ceremony. The street samurai I'm currently playing IRL basically only has a handful of "at-wills" he ever uses but that's OK because it's the sort of game where the focus is mostly on choosing where/when/who we fight. It's the sort of game where ideally all fights end by me shooting the other guy in the back while the Face looks surprised.

Lago PARANOIA wrote:So, polling around both online and offline has led me to conclude that even though Winds of Fate is a superior system to pretty much everything ever tried or proposed for a game as complex as D&D, there's just too much whiny grognard inertia for it to catch on. Much like New Coke. This leads me to believe that it needs to first be tested with another TTRPG, probably from scratch, so we can accumulate some success stories and port it over to D&D.


Personally I think that the best testbed system for this kind of thing would be Urban Fantasy. You know, like early Bleach, Sailor Moon, low-mid superhero comics, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, etc.. Both because that niche is unexplored (unless you count Shadowrun, which is a very specific brand of Urban Fantasy) but also because expectations for that genre aren't as crystallized as others.

I swear to Black Jesus I said this in the WoF thread.

Lago wrote:Winds of Fate is a superior system to pretty much everything ever tried or proposed for a game as complex as D&D

Fuck you. I even like WoF mechanics and that made me want to tell you to shove it up your ass. WoF is not completely without drawbacks. Especially the card-based system - that can go screw itself with two by fours (strictly my personal opinion, not looking for a fight - I recognize its pros, I just hate its cons more). I agree, though, when implemented well, WoF is a beautiful thing.

But more on topic, you need something that makes sense to be WoF matrixed, like your fantasy examples: Bleach, Superhero stuff, Buffy, whatever. Shadowrun's a no-go, it's far too gritty and realistic. Focuses way too much on well-executed planning and has a pretty damn limited repertoire of actions at that. Not that I think anyone was seriously considering shadowrun, but it points out some things worth avoiding by example.

Lago PARANOIA wrote:So, polling around both online and offline has led me to conclude that even though 4E D&D is a superior system to pretty much everything ever tried or proposed for a game as complex as D&D, there's just too much whiny grognard inertia for it to catch on. Much like New Coke. This leads me to believe that it needs to first be tested with another TTRPG, probably from scratch, so we can accumulate some success stories and port it over to D&D.

Hi there 4rrie. Oh wait. You didn't realize you sound EXACTLY LIKE ONE.

PL wrote:High there 4rrie. Oh wait. You didn't realize you sound EXACTLY LIKE ONE.

I've been waiting to say this for awhile, and it's finally on topic, but I hate your signature. There are perfectly valid reasons to be bothered by WoF, but I'm pretty sure your signature has nothing to do with any of them. It strikes me as a ridiculous comparison.

But that's neither here or there, and I'm not looking for the "does WoF actually suck, y/n" debate, because that'd be a massive derail. I just think your signature is one big non-sequitur to the topic (except for the end). We're talking about games with RNG's - the input IS the same (rolling dice) and the output IS different (getting different results).

Lago, once again, there are other systems that are good, or better.

You know that thing we complain about in 4e where you use your powers in any order because it doesn't matter, and so your PC could be run by a computer algorithm?

Winds of Fate does that too. In WoF, you don't actually get to make choices, and that can be bad.

There is a resource management system, like my StormLord class, where the PC can pick from a list of abilities, and use any of them at any time, but chooses to use different ones at different times, and that is player agency, and can result in very interesting combats.

I know my Storm Lord isn't perfect about it, and I know it's hard, and takes actual work to get it right, WoF is not superior to a list of abilities that are differently useful in different situations, and you can use any of them any time.

DSMatticus wrote:Not that I think anyone was seriously considering shadowrun, but it points out some things worth avoiding by example.

Agreed. I was just tossing words out there before anyone else saw Lago's post and just said "Hey, why -not- Shadowrun?"

Kaelik wrote: Winds of Fate does that too. In WoF, you don't actually get to make choices, and that can be bad.

If you're in the dark about the design goals of WoF and what it actually does but would wish to learn more, I'll be happy to link you the relevant thread.

Lago PARANOIA wrote:

Kaelik wrote: Winds of Fate does that too. In WoF, you don't actually get to make choices, and that can be bad.

If you're in the dark about the design goals of WoF and what it actually does but would wish to learn more, I'll be happy to link you the relevant thread.

The thing where you pretend that people who know how WoF work don't, just because you don't like when they bring up problems with WoF, isn't a very good argument.

We already went over this. I don't care what you tell me the design goals are, because as far as I can tell, you are less competent and aware of the results of your design attempts than Mike Mearls. What every proposed WoF system you or anyone else has ever suggested has reduced options relative to just not rolling WoF in the first place, and giving a list of abilities.

That's fine, for games that are supposed to have reduced player agency in combat, and that need to be able to force PCs to choose between doing something awesome, or something significantly less awesome, but required right now.

It's not better for games that are attempting to give PCs the ability to always be awesome, and to be able to have full control over their PCs in combat, not subject to the narrative.

lago, why do you love wof so much?

I could swallow it (oh shut up) a whole lot better if it wasn't actually Winds of Fate, but more like... shit, now I have to think. Okay:

[*]Shadow Hearts (vidya game) has a system where your attacks will damage enemies differently based on whether they're Low (crouching/prone humanoids, bug things), Medium (most things) or High (flyers) - with many things actually covering multiple zones. And you have attacks that can launch enemies into the air or slam them to the ground, so you can set up a "hit into air, use anti-air attack" combo.
[*]Queen's Blade or something (there's a fan-service/fetish animu based on it, but it was originally a battle-book game. With fan service) had some moves that fatigued you or made you fall prone (some cause it by hitting you, others cause it to the user), and then there were moves that were super-effective or only effective against people suffering from these effects
[*]Fuck it, fighting games - attacks that have good priority (hitting before enemies can finish their attack/winning the simultaneous-attack), attacks that leave you open after ("recovery" or midair attacks), some that combo into each other really well, the use of super-gauge to cancel the recovery time to help do combos (Guilty Gear)

There are ways to simulate having the opening other than a random die roll. Such as having that opening.

There are ways to simulate having the opening other than a random die roll. Such as having that opening.

I'm working on a system that does that in my spare time at work actually so please no one else spoil it

Personally I think that the best testbed system for this kind of thing would be Urban Fantasy.

Okay then.

Whenever I get done playing around with my current D&D setting*, I'll be running something that's likely gonna be a Feng Shui hack, with major power sources of Guns, Kung Fu, Killer Robots? From the Future, and Prophecy (because overt sorcery is right out).

If you want to posit some ways to make something WoF-like work with something close to the existant Feng Shui rules, I'd be highly interested.


*likely at least a year at current gaming rate.

Come to think of it, using such a position-and-condition based system would work quite well for something like Magical Girls (where in most of them, combat only ends when you use your Super Move and just about everyone flies or jumps high). It would be great. Everyone would have a bunch of attack options:

[*]Punch (quick attack, good to wear enemies down and combo-attack)
[*]Kick (knocks enemies away, heavy damage)
[*]Sweep (knocks enemies down, you are considered Prone)
[*]Grab (holds enemies for allies to hit, lets you throw, slam or choke them)
[*]Jump Kick (powerful attack, you are in the Air then)
[*]Uppercut (launches foe into the Air)

Along with defensive things such as Blocking, Dodging, Ducking and Leaping.

Then individuals could have any number of special moves, so Sailor Mercury would have:
[*]Transform (gain the other powers - leaves her open for a round. Every round it consumes some "Super Gauge", powered up by making normal attacks)
[*]Shabu Spray/Mercury Bubbles (obscures vision in an area)
[*]Scan/Lock-On (makes her next attack totally accurate, see hidden foes)
[*]Ice Bubbles (Slow/Immobilise enemies)
[*]Vacuum Cutter (use after using Shabu Spray - ends effect, hurts enemies in the area)
[*]Shine Aqua Illusion (freezes/hurts one enemy)
[*]Aqua Rhapsody (several water blasts that even hit Air/Prone enemies, requires "Super Gauge")
[*]Aqua Mirage (super-accurate attack hypnotises/freezes one Air foe, requires "Super Gauge")

She mostly has attacks that hit anyone, but the movement-reducing ones are more likely to work on people who are Fatigued or damaged, so while they're better if they work, you're more likely to say "No, I'll wait a bit."

Meanwhile Sailor Venus has a lot of Anti-Air and Grab attacks, Aika gains special Dodge-Move attacks as well as ranged Tentacle attacks/grabs and powerful melee attacks (with her Super Gauge starting full on transformation, then automatically lowering each round), Moka can basically fly, moves stupidly fast and just has a special super-damaging kick, probably using Aika's system of Super Gauge.

And then we have a game all about girls in short skirts leaping around and kicking each other in the face. So I approve.

Lago PARANOIA wrote:

Kaelik wrote: Winds of Fate does that too. In WoF, you don't actually get to make choices, and that can be bad.

If you're in the dark about the design goals of WoF and what it actually does but would wish to learn more, I'll be happy to link you the relevant thread.

Would you? I've seen you posting about it before but Google has no answers for me. Frankly, I hope it is as good as the Sailor Moon RPG Koumei just made up.

I think the perfect testbed would be Silver Age superheroes, where half the time (for no reason) Superman totally forgets that he has superspeed or that he can use heat vision from orbit, for instance.

Datawolf wrote:

Lago PARANOIA wrote:

Kaelik wrote: Winds of Fate does that too. In WoF, you don't actually get to make choices, and that can be bad.

If you're in the dark about the design goals of WoF and what it actually does but would wish to learn more, I'll be happy to link you the relevant thread.

Would you? I've seen you posting about it before but Google has no answers for me. Frankly, I hope it is as good as the Sailor Moon RPG Koumei just made up.

I would assume it is either this one:

http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=52 ... highlight=

or this one:

http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?p=148478

hogarth wrote:I think the perfect testbed would be Silver Age superheroes, where half the time (for no reason) Superman totally forgets that he has superspeed or that he can use heat vision from orbit, for instance.

Datawolf wrote: Frankly, I hope it is as good as the Sailor Moon RPG Koumei just made up.

Maybe an actual Magical Girl (general, to cover stuff like Agent Aika, Witchblade, Rosario to Vampire, Lyrical Whatchamacallit, Magical Kanaan, Papillon Rose, Revolutionary Girl Utena, arguably including even the Knight Sabers (Bubblegum Crisis) and so on) RPG should in fact be my next project*.

Spoilers: it won't be a 40k tie-in or use D&D.

And yes, people would have a whole bunch of moves that "only work when you are in X condition", "only work/work best when enemy is in X condition", "leaves you/enemy in X condition" and so on. With the finishers basically taking a full round to power up, that can be interrupted, to guarantee it being saved until the enemy is stunned or something.

*That's going to be a while, for those at home

Koumei wrote:And yes, people would have a whole bunch of moves that "only work when you are in X condition", "only work/work best when enemy is in X condition", "leaves you/enemy in X condition" and so on. With the finishers basically taking a full round to power up, that can be interrupted, to guarantee it being saved until the enemy is stunned or something.

I'm probably going to regret saying this, but there is a system where the PCs have attacks that cause a whole bunch of minor, but short duration conditions to enemies. And while that system would be greatly improved with if those conditions mattered for more than just the rogue's +2d6 sneak attack 1/round, you would be foolish not to learn from the mistakes of 4e.

To wit:

• Make sure that conditions matter enough to be worth tracking, even when such conditions aren't being used as openings for following attacks. 4e Marked is a waste of player accounting time.
• Standardize durations to minimize the number of times during any round they have to be tracked.
• Make sure that the differences between attacks matter. Subpoint. Make sure that the differences between using an attack against a target with an appropriate opening and a target without such an opening are meaningful.

Well, duh.

I figure you can have three positions: Prone, Standing, Aerial
You are normally Prone, but leaping, flying and getting knocked into the air make you Aerial, and crouching, meleeing with Prone foes and being smacked down make you Prone. Usually you revert to Standing at the start of your turn, unless you specifically stay down/up.

So Awesome Uppercut or Rainbow Spiral Heart Attack makes your opponent Aerial - and your allies can use Thunder Dragon or Space Turbulence on them until their turn, where they land. Or you can perform a Jump Kick and be Aerial until your next turn. Or you perform a Moonsault and become Prone until your next turn, but someone hits you with a Figure-4, keeping both of you Prone.

Your mini, if you use them, will be normal, lying flat, or elevated on a small block.

Then there's Fatigue, which requires putting a little token in front of you. Some things Fatigue you, and being below 1/2 HP or whatever automatically does. You can lose the status only when your HP are above this - by taking a nap (out of combat) or having an ability used on you. But you still have to be above 1/2 HP to do that. This doesn't give an actual numeric penalty to keep track of, it just means you can't use Mars Flame Sniper at all, and your opponent is able to OHKO you with Gamma Ray.

Any other status effect will generally have more to do with what you can and cannot do than a numeric thing:
[*]Sealed: you can't use any special powers and lose the benefits of your transformation
[*]Stunned: you can't take any active actions, merely move
[*]Paralysed: you can't move at all, and are auto-hit
[*]Blind: you (can't use aimed attacks/have a 50% miss chance/whatever)
[*]Pumped: you ignore Fatigue
[*]Invisible: see Blind, reverse it
[*]Tangled: you can't move about, use Aerial attacks or attack with your legs

And a few others like that. Then I'd try to figure out a consistent duration style - maybe a set number of rounds (which becomes annoying the more you have to keep track of), a 5+ on 1d6 Saving Throw at the end of each turn, "until the fight ends/healed" (harsh) or whatever.

But yeah. Learning from the mistakes of 4e seems to be a no-brainer.

The problem with Lost Worlds/Queen's Blade style systems is that thy are extremely complicated, and ultimately don't give you any more information or description than a die roll or card draw.

In the Queen's Blade model, it is the interaction between your last action and the last action of each person who is in combat with you that procedurally generates a list of potential maneuvers available to you next turn. But what happens when we expand the characters in play against you to a room full of goblins instead of a single half-naked valkyrie? The result becomes essentially random, because the number of interactions is so large. And when you start adding in hit and effect rolls? It becomes actually random.

The Queen's Blade argument is one of sleight of hand. You're still generating next turn's restrictions completely randomly, but by adding several die rolls and a look-up chart you've made the process so convoluted that no one can follow it. Essentially you're saying that WoF is fine as long as it you don't know what's going on or how it works. That a random result generated from behind the DM screen is OK, but a random result rolled in the open is unacceptable.

-Username17

Oh dear. I didn't even realise it was that bad. See, I had played around with an online Queen's Blade thing, where the PC does all the look-ups and you just choose things and see pictures. And it's all in Moon Runes. So I assumed it actually makes sense and is simple if you speak the language and have the books.

Still, that doesn't really effect the thrust of my argument, it just shows that that was a terrible example to use for the argument: rather than randomly determine what you can do, you should gain/lose a few things based on your last action, and enemies should be vulnerable/invulnerable to a few things based on your last action/their last action, meaning usually you can stop and say "It would be best to use X or Y, unless I want to risk it with Z".