The Gaming Den

That's just a placeholder name, for the record.

Basically, this is for discussion of the Fantasy Pro Wrestling game idea, seeing as already there is discussion for it.

To answer one thing: I don't intend on the players sort of cooperating to try to make the best show for the audience. It's not my vision that they are playing scriptwriters. They are basically treating it as though it is real - and indeed, what with healing magic meaning "this guy just broke his spine in seven places, including the car park" isn't even a big deal, it could very well be real in the setting.

At any rate, they are actually competing to win. And this probably means a fair amount of player vs player activity. Now, for those more interested in Team PC vs Team Monster, it's easy enough: they form a stable, and fight rival stables. This even means one session can have:

Player A (with Player B as a "manager") vs NPC 1
Players C & D vs NPCs 7 & 8
Player B vs NPC 3 (with player A, or even everyone, running in later to interfere)
A free for all at the end of the night (or 8-man tag, A B C D vs 1 2 5 9)

Because many fights will be one on one. So you want other players to have things to do, and ways to interact with them. Though this could also include, I suppose, letting them have out-of-character pushes they can provide - *players* having abilities to make the referee get distracted by something, or to suddenly cause a move to botch, or to get the crowd pumped to provide extra momentum or whatever.

The first thing that leaps out at me is that you're going to have to decide on an acceptable comedy level. Cleavenstein carries actual knives into the ring, and Ursa Murder's claws aren't really any worse. And yet you still want people to face referee sanction if they hit someone with an (anachronistic) folding chair. That's funny, but if you try to make the rest of the game without its tongue in its cheek, it will also be insulting.

Next, it sounds like you want to use a CAN system. Beating on someone drops status effects on them which make subsequent moves do bigger effects when they land. And "finishing moves" have bullshit (or even detrimental) opening effects and very powerful (or even battle ending) terminal effects.

So you beat on someone to put some hurtful status on them, and then you take advantage of their relatively poor CAN profile to use a special move that puts a really hurtful status on them.

-Username17

Sorry, someone define CAN for me?

Why are they fighting? How is it different than Gladiatorial fighting in Magical Rome?

Cage matches?
Ladder Matches?

What is character creation and character advancement going to look like.
How many powers and abilities do I get to choose from, and how bad(ass) are they?

Chamomile wrote:Sorry, someone define CAN for me?

Combat Advantage Number is a concept that got thrown around a bunch in a few projects that never really got going. The idea is that you have a CAN relative to someone, which influences the probability of how badly you hurt them when you hit them. If your CAN is low, then the chance of 'glancing blow' is high, and the chance of 'K.O.' is minimal. The higher your CAN gets, the more that ratio reverses itself.

I think there was a version where CAN was based on relative character level and tactical position, but the more recent version involves non-K.O. results stacking conditions on the targets which gives those attacking them more CAN.

FrankTrollman wrote:The first thing that leaps out at me is that you're going to have to decide on an acceptable comedy level. Cleavenstein carries actual knives into the ring, and Ursa Murder's claws aren't really any worse. And yet you still want people to face referee sanction if they hit someone with an (anachronistic) folding chair. That's funny, but if you try to make the rest of the game without its tongue in its cheek, it will also be insulting.

That is of course true. I am indeed going for tongue-in-cheek, hanging-a-lampshade. Most of the systems out there go from the perspective of it being vaguely serious, kind of a current-era WWE where we know it's fake but they go for realistic (see: boring) story lines a lot of the time.

This has fucking ogres and shit in it. It is best to go for something fairly comedic, where it's okay for someone's actual soul to be on the line in the match and for them to nonetheless sign the contract and fight by the rules.

As such, the following things will seriously result in a DQ:

• Using a weapon that isn't a natural weapon or part of your purchased gimmick (both likely to be more dangerous than a kendo stick or chair)
• Poking the eye, spitting in the face or throwing lit flash paper in the face (note: breath weapons are legal though, as is casting a blindness spell)
• Outside interference that you didn't magically summon
• Hitting the groin unless it's part of your registered finisher, in which case it's totally allowed
• Air chokes and using magic to pull the air out of their lungs (blood chokes are okay though! As is using magic/vampire teeth to pull the blood out of their body)

The more astute of you may notice that this makes no fucking sense in-universe, and is basically a silly shout-out to current wrestling rules.

I want to try to stop it from devolving into TOON level silliness though. I mean, we're looking at "less serious than a D&D game or actual wrestling match", but not "a gaming webcomic or Saturday morning cartoon".

Next, it sounds like you want to use a CAN system. Beating on someone drops status effects on them which make subsequent moves do bigger effects when they land. And "finishing moves" have bullshit (or even detrimental) opening effects and very powerful (or even battle ending) terminal effects.

That's a good idea, and is basically what I was going for with Momentum. CAN is just a more polished version of that. This way you actually can use your finisher at the start, it will just be stupid to do it. It will likely follow the natural progression that wrestling matches tend to follow. And rather than having things like "Big Boot: if it succeeds, your opponent loses all Momentum", you can just have that type of move be really easy to pull off (useful for when your opponent has a lot of CAN against you).

Now, most wrestling systems go by the system of you both declare and roll for the execution of your actions, with the highest roll winning (they succeed on the action, and the other guy's action doesn't happen). In 4-player matches, it tends to be either "Highest guy gets his action, everyone else is ineffectual" or "Highest roll declares a target and acts. Then the next highest, but the highest guy can't be targeted. Keep going down the list."

This results in a lot of "The other guy rolled higher, you sit there with your thumb up your ass this turn", but does allow for "Turn X: you scoop slam them, Turn X+1: you leap off the turnbuckle and either elbow-drop them or hit the canvass".

I'm wondering if just letting everyone act in every round, but having a lot of Stun effects (at the beginning of the other guy's next round, after declaring but before rolling, you roll 1d6. 5+ to remove the Stun and get your turn in) available could work - with multiple simultaneous Stuns being possible (so if you end up triple-Stunned, you'd need to remove all three in order to act this turn - and if someone pins you when you have 3+ Stuns on, then you have one chance to remove them, if 3+ Pins are still there at the end, that's the pinfall). It might just be a bit finicky and pointless though.

And of course, multiple Stuns and rolling to remove them could result in one move making you unable to act for like 6 rounds running. Hmm.

I think having everyone act, but having a lot of stun, and "setup" moves is the way to go.

Wrestling match should go something like this:
1) Presence attacks
2) Bell Rings
3) The opponents circle each other.
4) They do that weird initial grapple thing
5) Winner of grapple gets to setup a move.
6) Loser gets beat on for a while until he managed to do a move breaker of some kind.
7) go back to 4 until someone gets a pin/submission.

I can't believe this sounds like a game I would want to play.

Firstoff, Pro Wrestling isn't a game about winning wrestling matches. No, this is a game about winning notoriety and bigger contracts. One way to do that is by winning matches, but it's hardly the only way. Who you fight, where you fight, what you claim to be fighting over can all matter more than the victory. And what's really important is how it all looks to the fans.

The Big Comeback is a common wrestling trope. How would CAN represent this?

Red_Rob wrote:The Big Comeback is a common wrestling trope. How would CAN represent this?

Well, you would have events that either shifted negative status from you to your opponent, or you would have events that stripped negative status off of yourself.

I favor the former for the most part because I want the battle to ever actually end. And if every round people are getting CAN bonuses or at least keeping the numbers equal, then sooner or later someone is going to get a big enough CAN that they can use a finisher. And that's important. on't want a wrestling match to go steady state,

-Username17

So, I'm going to pause DC until my arm heals up - my typing is pretty bad and I can't draw. So I may as well do more talk about this.

Ideally, a given session will involve:
A. Petitioning for specific/important matches (a simple, quick roll generally, based on either how much crowd you draw in or how much the Lich Kings like you).

B. Doing short segments - an ambush, a backstage interview, holding a BBQ out the back, or The Cutting Edge. Variable amounts of rolling and choices, generally used to get a benefit (start the next match with some crowd favour), injure someone (their next match has their opponent already having some CAN), or improve your crowd-draw/booking-favour, or hype up a match.

C. The actual matches, where every PC should be a primary combatant in at least one each, and no match should be NPC-only. Preferably with multiple players in each, even if it's managers, colour commentary (in-game effect), run-in interference or convincing the Lich Kings to cast a spell to "spice things up".

Yeah, if a match is ever too one-sided so as to be boring, the Lich Kings might decide to summon giant scorpions or cause a lightning storm.

D. The end-of-night stuff where rewards and lasting injuries are determined, and people can spend XP and so on.

Now, stats and manoeuvres. I figure there are about three possible ways to handle it:
1. You have a "Level Bonus", and you have, say, High-Flier Moves, Power Moves and Tech Moves as skills. You spread X points between the three at the start, and they never change - the level bonus makes you better than chumps as you become prime-time material, but you are always on the same RNG as your peers, because the skill difference might be all of 3 points and the level bonus is the same.

2. You just have those skills, and you can flat-out choose to upgrade them however you like. It means there's no levelling, and Ogre McFattyFat will never be agile no matter how awesome he is at the powerbomb. But it does make it possible to fall off the RNG - it becomes desirable to pick one skill, max it out, and spam that type of move.

3. You instead have a few stats, and the stats determine multiple things. So Tech moves are Technique + Power, Aerial moves are Tech + Style, and Power moves are Style + Power. And those three stats affect other stuff as well, like Style being used to win extra fan favour, Power to flat-out resist shit and Tech to win initiative/escape holds.

Thoughts?

This seems relevant...

I am not usually up for winds of fate. This setup actually seems like it would fit well, especially if you have conditions (so you have to put someone on the floor before you can use the people's elbow.
Maybe conditions could replace randomization?

Also, it might be worth having some sort of floating initiative like the Exalted system, so climbing the ropes for Death From Above! takes a long time, and sucker punches are fast.

Here's a copy of Champs, Chumps, and Triumph, a system I occasionally work on that's about 85% done (and a little more advanced since Koumei last saw it). It's a wrestling game, but has enough modular elements that one of the final steps is the chapter on re-skinning everything to suit various genres and game types.


PDF of rules
http://meanliar.webs.com/Champs,%20Chum ... 110928.pdf

Raw Word 2007 file
http://meanliar.webs.com/Champs,%20Chum ... iumph.docx

Design notes in Excel 2007
http://meanliar.webs.com/Champs,%20Chum ... iumph.xlsx

Why do you subtract 7 and have the basic DC be 0 instead of just having the basic DC be 7 and never having a subtraction step at all?

If you're subtracting the same number all the time, why not just not subtract that number? Everything would be the same.

-Username17

Personal preference. I like the idea of the result bands of 0, 3, 6, etc.

...but it started because I had people rolling 1d6s off against each other (A's (d6 + stat) - (B's d6 + stat)) and just instead wanted to compress the step into one roll, which then became 2d6-7+statA-statB.

It just seems a lot easier to have the bands be:

1, 4, 7, 10, 13....

than

-6, -3, 0, 3, 6...

With the opposed roll, you go "Ursa Murder wins by 2", but on the compressed roll, that really is coming out as -2 or +2, which is cumbersome.

-Username17

So I'm thinking, what choices would players be making at character creation here?
[*]Race: it *could* be totally cosmetic, but we probably want to actually have it either provide a few racial powers onto your grid, or a whole list you can choose to put on your grid, or have "substitution moves" (so a Medusa, any time a list provides "Poke in the Eye" or "Flash Paper" or "Green Mist", can instead use "Stoning Gaze"). If the game cares about size (or rather, weight), movement types, or some basic stats used to roll the attacks, then it probably chances some of those.
[*]Actual lists. We don't want an empty grid that players fill, because either they do what people did for Create-a-Wrestler in WWF Superstars (picked every Powerbomb variant and some Submission holds, and nothing else), or it would have all these "Uses the X slot on Y row" tags which just confuses people and makes it all take forever. So you pick entire lists, like "Educated Feet", "Wheelin' Dealin'" and "High-Flying High-Risk High-Impact"
[*]Do we want people to put points into some kind of statline? Or should chosen lists actually modify those (generally putting a bonus into the relevant stat for them), or do we ditch the "core stats" idea altogether?
[*]The Finisher. Which maybe can be chosen from a list of "Finishing Moves", or is just "Any move you want", powered up a bit, and automatically falls on its own special list (rolling a 6 lets you use it - if you have enough CAN - or just use a normal "on a 6" move)
[*]Misc. Should there be something that basically covers Feats? Such as "Good in X type of match (some kind of actual related benefit)", "I am allowed to use my sword" or "I get a bonus on Y move type" or "I am a ____, so I also get the ____ list".

Because the way I see it, Ursa Murder is our iconic character here, and would have the following relevant things:
[*]Is a BEAR
[*]Has natural weapons which are legal, and is big, heavy and strong
[*]Probably specialises in clawing, bearhugs/general crushing, and manhandling people.
[*]Maybe leaps off the turnbuckle sometimes, delivering his full weight at a very scary velocity

And yes, we're probably looking at a lot of move lists cropping up, with a lot of moves. Who here remembers the Pokemon project?

Before we get to the move lists, we're going to need power levels. What does a wrestler just starting out, and what does a champ do?

Well let's look at things our other iconic charcter has that are probably determined by chargen decisions:

• Is made from sewn together body parts.
• Uses butchers' knives in the ring - probably specializing in causing graphic bleeding to excite the viewers. Also probably applicable to out-of-ring knife stuff like cooking.
• Has a rivalry with Ursa Murder.
• Can stay on his feat despite having a leaping bear press a paw into his chest - so probably has resistance or countermoves against aerial moves.

Honestly, I think the simple Green Arrow chart-base is probably the way to go in this instance. Your move lists would be a list of six moves and each turn one of them would be available based on your position. So "I'M A BEAR!!!" gives you something like this:

Tide of Battle	Move
1	Hibernate
2	Maul
3	Heedless Charge
4	Gnaw
5	Claw Stomp
6	Bear Hug

And Red Flecked Berserker is a different moveset that provides:

Tide of Battle	Move
1	Bespittled Rant
2	Bloody Bite
3	Rage
4	Flail
5	Relentless
6	Frenzied Attack

And then because Ursa Murder has both Red Flecked Berserker and I'M A BEAR!!!, when his Tide of Battle comes up with a 1, he can use Hibernate or Bespittled Rant.

The thing is that there probably needs to be a system for buying or building new movelists somehow. Someone is going to want to play a Harpy and note that the bird movelists have various peck moves hidden in them and want to replace those with other stuff for their harpy movelists. That has the potential to be unbalanced, especially as there explicitly are super moves hidden in these things. But I'm sure something can be worked out.

-Username17

God, I just remembered that there's an anime/manga that fits this just about perfectly, Kinnikuman, and it's terrible, terrible sequel, Ultimate Muscle.

So, that may help some.

Yeah, because it's wrestling and not D&D, move lists don't actually have to evolve over X levels, a given list can just have the six things you can roll. Character development is certainly within reason: as your gimmick changes, swap lists about, but if we want *advancement*, then people can just gain access to more powerful lists.

I figure the "I want to swap my pecks out" and similar could be handled by something equivalent to Feats, where you could spend a "feat" on, say, "Jailbird: you specialise in Cage Matches. You have (a bonus) on climbing things, and (a bonus) to foil others' escape attempts. Also, in a Cage match, if you reach the top and elect to perform a high-risk move, you double the damage - no matter who takes said damage." or you could instead go "Suplexinator: you are good at the suplex, and have studied every single variant. There are a lot of those. You can substitute German Suplex for the Move 1 on one list, the Full Nelson Suplex for the Move 3 on one list, and the Three Amigos for the Move 6 on one list."

So the harpy decides to take "Submission Machine" to swap pecking attacks for the aero-submission and flying sleeper hold, and as a trade-off she isn't taking "Especially good at not getting caught breaking the rules."

I think spending feats to replace maneuvers in lists is a developmental deadend. First of all: no matter what you do, people are going to need to make new lists. They are going to want to be heretical chainsaw wielding vampire monks, and whatever. And it's unreasonable to expect any list of abilities you can imagine giving out to have lists that comprehensively cover all those character concepts.

For the stuff where people want a single weird signature move to buy, they should literally get that as a single ability that only shows up on one number. There's no binding rule where everyone has to get the same number of maneuver options on every tide of battle result. Some player could get a super half nelson option on lucky number 3.

Chokes and other holds actually work super well with a WoF roll. You have certains types of moves that will get you out, and if you don't get the right options for a round you just sit there and get choked. It is much more immersive than just having an escape roll every turn.

-Username17