The Gaming Den

I guess that would depend on wizard spells, cleric powers?

paragon around 8, epic around 13.

The terms aren't really equivalent because in 4e there isn't an actual jump in power to justify calling it a "tier."

That being said, 7-9 is when you get a new flavor from a PRC and realize that being a spellcaster is just better in all ways.

In 3e, there is a notable power jump at 6th-7th level, where fighters get a second interative attack, Leadership comes online and caster start to get actual save-or-dies instead of just save-or-sucks.

There's a second, less notable power jump in the 9th-12th level range, where third attacks come around, and the PCs are pulling teleportation, planar travel, reviving the dead and calling the gods up on their cel phones.

And then there's a third jump where the game becomes more about which nerfs and patches the MC has applied to eliminate infinite loops than about the RAW. Where this occurs varies drastically with play groups and gentelmen's agreements - in can happen at 5th or lower with item creation and wealth or it's sometimes ignored until well over 20th.

Paragon and Epic are mostly like getting a couple feats or mild prestige class abilities. But there are a couple breaks in 3x where the game style totally changes.

I'm generally with Josh on his assessments, but might adjust it a wee bit.

I'd say 5th-6th as the first jump. 3rd level spells, more widespread item creation and leadership mostly.

Iterative attacks are kind of balls but some of the stronger non-spell combos have come online around this time (spirited charge+mount that can go anywhere). Save or dies aren't really a consideration since those are online at level 1, but save and *still* suck is now on the table.

9th for the spells that let you really take an active hand in plot shaping/derailment.

So 1st, 5th, 9th.

K wrote:The terms aren't really equivalent because in 4e there isn't an actual jump in power to justify calling it a "tier".

As compared to 4E, where going from one tier to another is changing a boring +1 bonus to a boring +2 bonus to a boring +3 bonus?

hogarth wrote:

K wrote:The terms aren't really equivalent because in 4e there isn't an actual jump in power to justify calling it a "tier".

As compared to 4E, where going from one tier to another is changing a boring +1 bonus to a boring +2 bonus to a boring +3 bonus?

Which is exactly what he said?

This question is reversed. What you should be asking is, "what levels would the entire 4e game fit into for PF?" The answer is probably 1-8.

DSMatticus wrote:This question is reversed. What you should be asking is, "what levels would the entire 4e game fit into for PF?" The answer is probably 1-8.

The idea makes sense.. 4e tries to have a big special effects budget but everything's so cut down it's just paying a token nod to what came before. Hell, here's what I picture when I hear "Dragon in D&D 4th Edition"