A Final Solution/Novel Ideas

[JigokuBosatsu]

So, as I think about where to go gamewise, now that I have a sweet set of dice again, I was pondering about wizards.

I know that there have been numerous threads about fighter-wizard balance, and I don't want to revisit the whole thing , just one specific aspect that I'm not sure anyone has focused on.

When you look at most spellcasters (who aren't gods or godlike) in myth and fiction, they are usually gimped by something, whether it be taboos that directly remove their magic powers if broken, or crippling overspecialization due to having never known anything but cloistered magic study, or initiation into some restrictive group. So if you are a Pink Wizard of Darthexo, you have to toe the line. If you are a Renegade Pink Wizard, your dweomer is going to bring all Darthexo to the yard.

Now, I know that there are rpg systems that use this to some extent (can't think of names at the moment)- so why not D&D? It seems like maybe that is something the vast majority of us have blocked out because of the metagame. Is it so wrong to have, for lack of a better word, really hard fluff? I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts.

Also, I am officially doing the 3-day Novel Contest this year. I've decided that I'm going to use the "skeleton computer" idea in some form- Vebyast, I believe that started with you. Does anyone have some cool or funny things they'd like to see in a Dying Earth-esque novel written in the everlasting paragraph Marquez style? I'll make sure to put you in the acknowledgements.

[Prak]

I think technically the idea started with Koumei, she had a skeleton/wight computer pyramid in one of her IRL games and mentioned it here, and then it came up again in the Water Treatment Spells thread.

You should incorporate hacklerics that overclock with bolster, and rewrite programs with command.

For myself, I'm considering incorporating the Magi-public works program into the stories I'm writing (I've only got one up at the moment, but it's the unspoilered link in my blog, let me know what you think). I just have to figure out where that leaves my main protagonist, an Elven Barbarian.

[JigokuBosatsu]

Hmm. Koumei, care to claim the idea?

And I do like that idea, Prak. Maybe have an abandoned facility of bonesies that need a cleric brought in to upgrade/reprogram. The wheels are spinning.

EDIT: That concept- magitek, basically- is something I've been battling myself over for a while now, in doing some work on the sequels to Antipaladin Blues, specifically: how does a sorcerous EVILLL empire work? What's it like to live there? I did write a humorous short story about Christmas in the sorcerous EVILLLL, but it didn't really address much other than the cult of personality surrounding the evil overlord.

[Quantumboost]

The idea's floated around here before that. This post mentions the idea as early as four years ago, and there's mention of undead assembly languages etc. in the last post in that thread.

Still looking to see if there are even earlier posts regarding that.

[JigokuBosatsu]

And in that post Tzor mentions he wrote up some stuff for NaNoWriMo. I'd love to take a look at that. (Not right now, don't want to unconsciously crib anything).

[tzor]

Oh yea, Necropolis, my first successful NaNo which oddly enough was an erotic novel (It was the living who were doing all the action, although you did have a bunch of dead ralatives trying to get two people to get married.) As I mentioned a lot of it was basically borrowed from ghostwalk. I'll see if I have some original source material on one of my backup devices.

[Vebyast]

As far as I can tell, the idea of using magic or mechanistic magical constructs as the substrate for computation is pretty common. Rick Cook wrote a series of books about a computer programmer that gets selected by Summon Everyman Hero and ends up formalizing magic enough that he can write programs for it. Basically every strategy game that has implemented something with triggers has been turned to computation (Minecraft and Dwarf Fortress are especially popular, I've heard of it done in openTTD), and this is just an extension of that. I've had the idea bouncing around my head for years; I'm not entirely surprised that other people thought of it too.

hacklerics

I am totally calling skeleton operators that from now on. Perhaps a slight misspelling to make it more obvious - "Hakclerics"?

[Grek]

Pretty sure he means hacker clerics, ie. people who hack into skeletal computers with cleric powers.

[K]

Every time I see this thread in the list, I think it's about the Holocaust.

"The Final Solution" is a phrase that should probably be reserved for Nazi-related discussions.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Now, I know that there are rpg systems that use this to some extent (can't think of names at the moment)- so why not D&D? It seems like maybe that is something the vast majority of us have blocked out because of the metagame. Is it so wrong to have, for lack of a better word, really hard fluff? I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts.

D&D magic, at least in 3rd Edition, had a lot of quirks and restrictions to them. Now granted, a lot of them weren't good and didn't make a lot of sense (like material components) but saying that pre-3E D&D didn't have them is just medium ignorance.

Anyway, most fictional magic systems have restrictions built into them so that (A) people don't accuse the author of plot-induced stupidity or deus ex machinas when the plot goes a certain way, (B) force the plot to go the way they want and (C) because most of the sources that you're drawing from don't have to make a gameplay tradeoff.

This is why magic systems in games are always a lot simpler and 'sterile' if that's the right word than in other media. The PIS/DEM aspect is meliorated by spell lists, the magic system doesn't have to have a contrivance in it to make the plot go the way that the author wants (such as questing for reagants), and most importantly because a lot of fictional restrictions that people put into their non-game stories would be annoying to play. People do not actually want to piece together fragments of a spellcasting language nor keep track of the phase of the moon or be a certain gender or have to track down the NPC that knows fireball.

And the more that people are expected to use magic (either by PC ratio or plot events/battles) the fewer non-tactical restrictions that you have to put on it. Taking out material components and a consolidating the illusion system, 3E D&D's system is seriously about the best you can do.

[Vebyast]

hacklerics

I am totally calling skeleton operators that from now on. Perhaps a slight misspelling to make it more obvious - "Hakclerics"?

Dammit, just noticed that I misspelled an important bit there. Skeleton operator --> Skeletron operators. That's what I get for trying to be subtle. >_<

Now, I know that there are rpg systems that use this to some extent (can't think of names at the moment)- so why not D&D? It seems like maybe that is something the vast majority of us have blocked out because of the metagame. Is it so wrong to have, for lack of a better word, really hard fluff? I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts.

Low-point, gritty GURPS games tend to go this way, with everybody loading on the disadvantages to get useful abilities. Unfortunately, GURPS is kind of special case, since basically every major character option requires GM oversight.

That brings me nicely to my next point, which is that the whole limited-power thing hasn't caught on because it requires a huge amount of DM supervision. Otherwise your players either exploit the setting for min/maxing or the limitations end up dictating the system to minimize min/maxing. For example, if you try to make a setting with four moons, you had better read everything carefully to make sure nobody has an ability that only works during a full moon; if you don't want to have to check every single character at every single level-up, you can't have more than one moon if you want to avoid overpowered characters.

[Archmage]

That brings me nicely to my next point, which is that the whole limited-power thing hasn't caught on because it requires a huge amount of DM supervision.

This.

If your players are allowed to pick their own drawbacks, they will almost always pick the drawbacks that hurt the least.

If they aren't allowed to pick their own drawbacks, they will frequently be annoyed when they come up if they don't feel like they're in control of them at all. "You can't cast spells during the full moon" will piss people off. "You need expensive material component X" is generally okay, but you will piss people off if you then follow that with "and you can't buy it in this town." They will feel like you are personally hosing their characters unless you are playing a pre-published adventure and point out to them that you aren't the one who decided they couldn't use their abilities.

Focus/fetish-based casting will result in people who are playing to win going to extensive lengths to keep their foci from being lost or stolen. If hiding your magic wand up your ass like a gold pocketwatch to keep the goblins from taking it, they'll do it.

Ultimately, you have to use drawbacks that people feel like they can control but that they can't control in a way that allows them to "game the system." Stuff like "this spell takes a full round to cast, and if you're attacked during casting you will probably get interrupted and lose it" passes the test of being controllable without being prone to ridiculous abuses, for example.

[Prak]

hacklerics

I am totally calling skeleton operators that from now on. Perhaps a slight misspelling to make it more obvious - "Hakclerics"?

Dammit, just noticed that I misspelled an important bit there. Skeleton operator --> Skeletron operators. That's what I get for trying to be subtle. >_<

Ooh! Ooh! Create a mysterious new god of undeath and science, with many oddly named servants who represent various aspects of science, which are thanked by intoning their names whenever a Hackleric successfully utilizes something within their purview.

I.E. Hax/Ha'kzor, god of Undeath and SCIENCE!, Pwn, demi-god of conquest through applied SCIENCE! Phreek, demi-god of freedom through exploitation of SCIENCE!, etc.

[fectin]

Shugenja have the weird taboos. No-one plays shugenja, because it's more irritating than actually restrictive. And many prestige classes have restrictions about "must show up and teach for one month every year" or whatnot.

Watch this: skeletons assembled into complex computational constructs assemble and animate ever-smaller skeletons, integrating them into an ever more complex and redundant mechanism, until the whole plane is built out of mechanical-computing tiny constructs. Then you get force of will duels between rebuking clerics, and also get turning clerics that blast away their surroundings also by force of will. Vaguely like Zelazney's Madwand, but in reality instead of a shared hallucination.
That might also lead to Matrix-style reality hacking, but that's mostly optional.

[Vebyast]

Watch this: skeletons assembled into complex computational constructs assemble and animate ever-smaller skeletons, integrating them into an ever more complex and redundant mechanism, until the whole plane is built out of mechanical-computing tiny constructs. Then you get force of will duels between rebuking clerics, and also get turning clerics that blast away their surroundings also by force of will. Vaguely like Zelazney's Madwand, but in reality instead of a shared hallucination.
That might also lead to Matrix-style reality hacking, but that's mostly optional.

I really, really like this idea. I have nothing else here; I just wanted to say that.

[JigokuBosatsu]

I ended up having the thousands of skeletrons using 3 colors of marbles to work a big ternary computation that I did not make explicit, because the flow of the narrative took a different direction and they ended up getting hijacked to fight some robots. If I expand the novel after the contest (which I'm sure I will) I'll mess with this angle some more.

[fectin]

Vague is good. Unless you have a reason to, why bother explaining what they're calculating?

[Vebyast]

Vague is good. Unless you have a reason to, why bother explaining what they're calculating?

Also, the more detail you give, the more likely it is you'll get something wrong enough to break suspension of disbelief. Vague is good.

[JigokuBosatsu]

Some of the best parts of the book are "Noodle Incidents", details of the world and its history that I used to evoke certain feelings (and increase the length of the sentences to superhuman levels.)

[JigokuBosatsu]

So, just as an update, I did manage to finish the 3-day book, though it wasn't as long or as good as I'd like it to be. The best parts were the Marquezian rambling, and whenever I tried to pair it with some action, the action scenes sucked. In fact, at one point when I was writing a part I knew wasn't very good, I did think to myself "The Den is going to fucking rape me."

So, whether or not I win, I will definitely be rewriting and adding to this. And of course, pestering you guys for the occasional idea.

[shadzar]

When you look at most spellcasters (who aren't gods or godlike) in myth and fiction, they are usually gimped by something, whether it be taboos that directly remove their magic powers if broken, or crippling overspecialization due to having never known anything but cloistered magic study, or initiation into some restrictive group. So if you are a Pink Wizard of Darthexo, you have to toe the line. If you are a Renegade Pink Wizard, your dweomer is going to bring all Darthexo to the yard.

Now, I know that there are rpg systems that use this to some extent (can't think of names at the moment)- so why not D&D? It seems like maybe that is something the vast majority of us have blocked out because of the metagame. Is it so wrong to have, for lack of a better word, really hard fluff? I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts.

D&D does have this. the thing with fiction such as novels (good luck with the contest), is that they are bound by a worlds design. D&D really doesnt have a default design as it leaves itself open for various forms of playstyles.

Specialists wizards are not allow to take some spells. This is built into the system, but you can override it. Settings is where the things you speak of come about. Dragonlance has rules for the wizards, so does Forgotten Realms. Red Wizards have a clear set of doctrines to follow, such as your proposed Pink Wizard.

Having the game designed around such a close idea, would have not sold well, so it was left open to decide. Also in recent years "player agency", i think is the term; where people call it the ability to use anything published without approval of the DM but by virtue of buying the product, goes to further that people wouldnt liek being restrained in a way such that the great fiction does it. somehow it would stiffle the people playing to not be able to do everything their way all the time.

the depth you seek from the game exists, but often is attacked by people online, so it stays at private homes. so if you look at D&D for specific things you may NEVER find them, but you will note they allow you to tie up those lose ends such a restrictive magic, because it was made so open to allow for anyone to adapt it to all those stories listed as references in the books.

also you have to consider Jack Vance as to where the magic system came from, so the method of the magic system already has a LOT os systems of restriction, as well the divide of arcane and divine magic.

"She's channeling the power of a god, you dolt. I'm wresting arcane energies from the very fabric of the universe - it's completely different." ~ Raistlin Majere

where the wizard played by Mako in Conan was using magic that the gods allowed him to do so. he could not do things the gods didnt allow, which would fit with your taboos, but is not always how D&D magic system works with Vancian magic.

[Orion]

"The Final Solution" is a phrase that should probably be reserved for Nazi-related discussions.

Seconded.