The Gaming Den

So, instead of 3.5, a number of prospective players want to use PF. Should there be any compatibility issues using Tome (classes, feats, BoG magic items)?

Let's just say that with all the changes that PF has made to the system (especially in the feat and caster class department), there is no real compatibility. You're better off digging up the basic 3.5 books along with the compiled tomes. Besides, Pathfinder sucks quite a lot more in some departments than you might be aware of...

Huge compatability issues. The two use wildly different balance points, were not designed with the intent of working well with eachother and, in many cases, make different or even opposite changes to the same sections of the rules.

You can pretty much import the adventure ideas, explanations of alignment, economy and morality over into pathfinder mechanics, but that is about it. Introducing Tome style items is also maybe doable, but even that would probably have weird edge-case issues in some places and suffer from the fact that the BoG was never actually finished and isn't ever going to be finished.

Tome overrides the combat maneuver system of 3.x. Disarming, grappling, and other mechanics will work differently. Some of the Tome classes/feats/items are written assuming that the game uses the Tome maneuver system as well, particularly with regards to having the Edge on someone.

Pathfinder gave a straight power-up to casters and didn't power up fighters, so I think in that sense Tome fighting classes and martial feats would fit in perfectly.

Speaking as someone who actually plays both 3.5 and Pathfinder on a regular basis, the differences in power level are fairly minor (PFRPG characters get extra HP, extra feats, and a few extra class abilities). The biggest compatibility difference would probably be with combat maneuvers, as noted above. Otherwise, I presume Tome stuff should work well enough with PFRPG.

hogarth wrote:Speaking as someone who actually plays both 3.5 and Pathfinder on a regular basis, the differences in power level are fairly minor (PFRPG characters get extra HP, extra feats, and a few extra class abilities). The biggest compatibility difference would probably be with combat maneuvers, as noted above. Otherwise, I presume Tome stuff should work well enough with PFRPG.

??

Wait, what?

So, as long as the power difference between A and B are similar, then A should work totally fine with C that was specifically created to change the power level of B?

That makes no fucking sense.

Kaelik wrote:

hogarth wrote:Speaking as someone who actually plays both 3.5 and Pathfinder on a regular basis, the differences in power level are fairly minor (PFRPG characters get extra HP, extra feats, and a few extra class abilities). The biggest compatibility difference would probably be with combat maneuvers, as noted above. Otherwise, I presume Tome stuff should work well enough with PFRPG.

??

Wait, what?

So, as long as the power difference between A and B are similar, then A should work totally fine with C that was specifically created to change the power level of B?

That makes no fucking sense.

I'm sorry you don't understand.

Kaelik wrote:So, as long as the power difference between A and B are similar, then A should work totally fine with C that was specifically created to change the power level of B?

Implied but not explicitly stated is the claim that Pathfinder and 3.5 are not difference except for a negligible power difference.

A Man In Black wrote:

Kaelik wrote:So, as long as the power difference between A and B are similar, then A should work totally fine with C that was specifically created to change the power level of B?

Implied but not explicitly stated is the claim that Pathfinder and 3.5 are not difference except for a negligible power difference.

Right, but Tome and 3.5 are not the same power level, so how the fuck can PF and Tome be?

A ≈ B
∴
( A + C ) ≈ ( B + C )

Josh_Kablack wrote:A ≈ B
∴
( A + C ) ≈ ( B + C )

So... Tome overwrites 3.5, making it not compatible. Tome overwrites PF making it not compatible.

Therefore Tome is compatible with PF. WTF for the 14th time, that makes no sense.

In my prior post, A is 3.5, B is PF and C is Tome

Kaelik, you are understanding Tome as "overwrites" when it can also be understood as "adds to". If the Tome stuff is just additional supplemental material, then hogarth's argument makes complete logical sense.

Although neither replacement nor addition is precisely accurate, so your confusion at his implied premise is understandable. Tome stuff does replace large parts of the base system, but the Tomes themselves are insufficient to run a game without some sort of core books.

As to the core question of those thread - whether and how it might matter if those core books are 3.5 or Pathfinder I can't be sure. I can only say that some of the Tome stuff was written for 3.0 and some for 3.5, and any MC wanting to use Tomes will have to do some houseruling of compatibility issues regardless of the base edition.

I always feel this sort of question becomes fairly easier to answer if provided with some extra information. Like why do your players want pathfinder instead of 3.5. And what parts of pathfinder / tomes do you want to use?

3.5 is a Frankenstein monster. PF and Tomes are both invasive surgery on that monster. Thus, you need to pick and choose what patchwork you are doing from the different options.

If you're considering a Tome game, and wondering if you can use PF instead of 3.5, you might want to take a look at what you'd actually be using from PF:

• The casters, which are largely unchanged in Tome.
• The spells, which don't affect much of Tome's scope.
• The Golarion setting, which is kind of awesome, and useful if you're using Paizo adventure products.

This is what you won't be using, and why:

• Skills - Tome changes these a little, but the biggest problem is that Tome feats rely on skills working as they did in 3.5. If you feel like re-writing Tome material to fit into a PF skills system, then you can, but it's still incompatable.
• Feats - Nearly everything written for PF is based on the idea that Weapon Proficiency (short sword) is a balanced and viable feat, and everything in Tome is not. If you really get off on some PF feat and you say it's allowed, you either need to re-write it to bring it up to Tome standards, or you are a mouth-breathing idiot.
• All classes and prestige classes - Like with the feats, PF is shooting for a balance point that isn't balanced, and Tome is trying to avoid that. While you aren't going to suffer much by allowing a PF wizard instead of a 3.5 wizard in your Tome game, all your non-pure-casters from PF are NPC classes by comparison.
• Combat maneuvers - Completely replaced with an integrated system in Tome that conflicts with the sorta-integrated system in PF.
• Magic items - I'm not entirely sure that Tome magic items are comprehensive enough to make for a robust game with lots of fun options, but you probably shouldn't try mixing Tome magic items with PF ones. I confess I haven't really looked into the magic item comparison, so I could be wrong.

Where does that leave you? What of PF is worth keeping at all? If you want your druid to have an animal companion that's easier to build and harder to abuse, sure, use the PF one. But for the most part, the changes PF attempts are minor and inferior to Tome because the development goals are in opposition to each other.

The only reason I can think of to really want to use PF is for compatability with other Paizo products like adventure paths. And since PF was made with those products in mind and virtually nothing else, if this is a concern you shouldn't use Tome.

Bihlbo wrote:[*]The Golarion setting, which is kind of awesome, and useful if you're using Paizo adventure products.

I found your post to be quite helpful with planning a partial use of Tome rules for my own PF campaign (we only play PF because we can't get the 3.5 books around here anymore.
DAMN YOU FINLAND!!) but I think the part I quoted is the only thing purely subjective and thus not really helpful. Just saying, since my own group doesn't give a shit about Golarion despite it being the world they had their adventures in.

Edits, because I can.