ideas that need to go away

[Prak]

So, I was paging through Pathfinder's Ultimate Combat. It introduces three new base classes, Gunslinger, Ninja and Samurai. Looks like Ultimate is the PF answer to Complete.

The gunslinger and ninja have differently named abilities that amount to the same thing: here's a point pool and here's a bunch of crazy awesome tricks you can use the points to perform. The reasoning on both was basically the same: you're a (x), you live by doing crazy shit on the edge of mortal capabilities.

This shit needs to stop. Every player character in an rpg is an adventurer. Adventurers by definition have crazy awesome exploits that are on the borders of mortal capabilities. Every class should have mechanics like this. The idea that it should be class specific is dumb and leads to VAHs.

[Seerow]

But doing that for everybody makes Fighters too anime! It's fine for ninjas and samurai because they're supposed to be anime!




I am 99% sure this is the exact logic the Pathfinder designers use.

[Prak]

And gunslingers?

Two things (I know you're being facetious, but it should be said), first, I think a lot of people here have said this, but it bears saying again: fuck the anti-weeaboo grognards. A game loses no money by not catering to them.

Second, the idea of heroes defying gravity, logic, physics and reality pops up in western entertainment too, it's called swashbuckling over here. Watch Errol Flynn, watch The Three Musketeers, watch The Princess Bride. Read pulp stories, read comics. Flying from chandeliers, popping dragons in the face, shooting locks and so on isn't the sole domain of anime, and anyone who thinks it is can go make tender love with a fucking cheese grater with aioli lube.

[Psychic Robot]

no this does not need to go away. in fact I think that it's probably one of the better things that pathfinder has done.

actual ideas that need to go away:

feat chains
stat bonuses
wealth by level
non-scaling feats
fighters

[Seerow]

Gunslingers get to do cool things because Guns are awesome, and Guns in fantasy are even MORE awesome. I mean, how boring would it be if your Gunslinger were restricted to the same options as your Archer?




....Okay I'm going to stop now. On one hand, I do think there is a distinction between anime and western media that is bigger than you describe (Compare any of the things you listed to Naruto, Yu Yu Hakusho, or DBZ, the characters are capable of vastly different things).

On the other hand, I don't think this is a bad thing. I simply think that Japanese are more comfortable with the idea of humanity surpassing physical limits in ways that don't involve magic. Something about our culture tells us that X is a point that no human may surpass. And even though we are told "This guy is so fucking awesome he's beyond human" for some reason we have a tendency to think "Okay so he's a little better than anyone we've seen before" as opposed to "He fucking takes the laws of physics, bends them over a knee and spanks the shit out of them til they say "Yessamasta do what you please!"

But while that distinction is there, I just think that should represent different levels of play. I personally don't think there is anything particularly anime level in the Warblade, who mostly just gets special strikes and counters, with nothing obviously reality breaking. Or the 4e Fighter. Those sorts of abilities should be what a low level Fighter (like 1-7 in 3.5, 1-10 in 4e) is doing.

But past that point, when everyone else is becoming superhuman, anime style hijinx should be kicking in for everyone. Yeah, it's kind of anime for the Fighter to use his jump check to start basically flying. But who really cares? He's a 10th level fighter, the Wizard figured out how to fly 5 levels ago! At this point your Fighter should be pulling off shit that everyone at the table will say "What the fuck how did you do that? There's no way that works!" because that's the goddamn point of high level.



Wow that was a really bad tangent.

[Josh_Kablack]

And gunslingers?

Thoroughly anime:

Anime anti-heroes since the 1970s.

Or maybe you prefer the 90s model anti-hero

Or the gunslinger who shoots magic bullets in outer space

Or the space western version

Or the pair of gunslingers in a wizards guild


Edit: those were off the top of my head, google reminded me of some big ones I missed

Cheesecake for the survivalist who obsesses over real world gun stats

Cheesecake for the cyber-fetishist

Title character of the longest-running manga still in publication

[Prak]

no this does not need to go away. in fact I think that it's probably one of the better things that pathfinder has done.

actual ideas that need to go away:

feat chains
stat bonuses
wealth by level
non-scaling feats
fighters

As a mechanic, it's a good one. But every class (except possibly explicitly magical ones like wizard and sorcerer) should be able to do that. The tricks scale with level (so it's something like at level one you're ignoring rough terrain, like a cluttered bar floor, or the first x range increments, or whatever, and at level ten you're clearing 20 ft without a jump check, leaping from the ground to a low balcony, or swinging on a chandelier), and that's a perfectly fine way to separate "Wow, you have to be incredibly skilled *and* lucky to pull that off" swashbuckling stuff and "How the fuck'd you do that?" anime stuff.

Classes that actually cast spells can just have their spells, but any class that doesn't should have a "Named, Adventuring PC" pool of points, call it whatever you want in class, a list of universal tricks that any adventurer can pull off (kicking down doors, slicing through enemies X levels lower than you like butter, whatever) and a class specific list of tricks (chandelier swinging, trick shots, wall running, iaijutsu, etc.).

And if people don't want to play Naruto (or Kratos... or Enkidu... or Hercules...) then they can just stop playing that character at tenth level, and start a new one. Or stop leveling at tenth level, and just gain more tenth level appropriate stuff.

However, I do agree on feat chains, non-scaling feats, wealth by level, and the idea of the generic fighter class, unless all classes are generic, and you custom-flavour with abilities selected from lists, like d20 modern, but good.

[sake]

. I mean, how boring would it be if your Gunslinger were restricted to the same options as your Archer?

But Pathfinder Archers actually have way more interesting, better options than Pathfinder Gunslingers do.

That scene in Thor where Hawkeye looks at a wall of guns and then grabs a freaking bow? Yeah, that would make total sense in PFverse.

[Josh_Kablack]

On the other hand, I don't think this is a bad thing. I simply think that Japanese are more comfortable with the idea of humanity surpassing physical limits in ways that don't involve magic..

Wait just a cotton pickin' minute before selling my culture
so short.

[Prak]

On the other hand, I don't think this is a bad thing. I simply think that Japanese are more comfortable with the idea of humanity surpassing physical limits in ways that don't involve magic..

Wait, just a cotton pickin' minute selling, my culture
so short.

Thank you.

[icyshadowlord]

But doing that for everybody makes Fighters too anime! It's fine for ninjas and samurai because they're supposed to be anime!

I am 99% sure this is the exact logic the Pathfinder designers use.

I think this sums up what I thought would be their logic.

[GâtFromKI]

The reasoning on both was basically the same: you're a (x), you live by doing crazy shit on the edge of mortal capabilities.

One of those power is "you can shoot an item to make it move". Another is "you can shot a lock".

...

If you ask me, the reasoning wasn't what you say. It was more "we need to fill 4 page with our class".


----
Actually, I'm not joking: I don't think that Paizo has any idea about game-design. I mean, I don't always agree with the posts of Frank or Lago, but at least they have some global vision about the game. When they propose something, we know why. The playtest of stealth from paizo, in the other hand, or "powers" like "you can shoot an item", show that they are doing random stuff without further thinking (can someone explain the design goal of the "new" stealth?).

Many idea should be thrown away from Pathfinder, but they won't be, since Paizo doesn't have any global vision.

[Prak]

It was the reasoning, I didn't say it made sense given the powers (because I just paged through, I didn't read comprehensively).

[GâtFromKI]

(because I just paged through, I didn't read comprehensively).

Sadly, that's how Pathfinder works: nobody reads Pathfinder.

Paizils are convinced that UM and UC are filled with good ideas because they didn't actually read those books.

[Prak]

The art's pretty!

[fbmf]

[The Great Fence Builder Speaks]
Linking to tubgirl=NOT OKAY
[/TGFBS]

[fbmf]

On the other hand, I don't think this is a bad thing. I simply think that Japanese are more comfortable with the idea of humanity surpassing physical limits in ways that don't involve magic..

Wait just a cotton pickin' minute before selling my culture
so short.

I'm calling bullshit on the Shadow. The "power to cloud men's minds" isn't magic? Does the Shadow play with the "Psionics are different" rule?

Game On,
fbmf

[Seerow]

On the other hand, I don't think this is a bad thing. I simply think that Japanese are more comfortable with the idea of humanity surpassing physical limits in ways that don't involve magic..

Wait just a cotton pickin' minute before selling my culture
so short.

I'm not really seeing anything in there that makes my statement incorrect.

Superman-Pretty much magic. Or Alien Superpowers. We're talking about the culture rejecting a normal guy being such a badass that he can tell the universe to sit down and do things his way. Superman was never a normal person.

Batman-Pretty much a normal guy. Maybe in some later comics he got something special, but he's always been just a smart rich guy with a tool for every job. You don't see him flying by strength of will, or running up walls, or really doing anything that breaks the image of reality too hard.

Iron Man-Points to the supremacy of technology. Technology surpassing human limitation is fine. Nobody cares if you have a Fighter in 10,000,000 gp worth of magic items who can be awesome. They do care if you have a Fighter who is butt naked being awesome.

Most of your others I either didn't recognize, or were normal people. I mean, when I say "Western culture depicts human heroes as capable of feats that should be done by a low level D&D character" and your counter includes the Lone Ranger, I just have to say "What?"

[RadiantPhoenix]

Batman-Pretty much a normal guy. Maybe in some later comics he got something special, but he's always been just a smart rich guy with a tool for every job. You don't see him flying by strength of will, or running up walls, or really doing anything that breaks the image of reality too hard.

[Josh_Kablack]

Well the Shadow was my replacement for Harry Houdini, because I was worried that Houdini counts as a "magic" power source, despite having been a real person.

And my apologies: that link never showed tubgirl on my end (and thankfully still doesn't) it was supposed to be a Frazetta illustration of Tarzan. I suspect I ran afoul of a hotlinking defense mechanism.

[tzor]

Gunslingers get to do cool things because Guns are awesome, and Guns in fantasy are even MORE awesome. I mean, how boring would it be if your Gunslinger were restricted to the same options as your Archer?

Archers are already breaking the rules of realism already. Consider the word "archer." That's right, an arrow's projection is in an arch. One of the reasons why canons trumped trebushets and crossbows / guns trumped bows is that they had a more linear flight path and thus did not have to have someone who understood trajectories and exactly how far the target was away from him to use.

Unless you want to throw an M16 into the capaign the real question is "how much suck do you want to eliminate?" Medieval weapons sucked. Civil and post civil war weapons all had their problems (and the "wild west" is a post civil war era).

[Prak]

The Shadow used hypnosis and mental suggestion to make people simply not see him, as far as I understand it.

Batman has displayed similar capabilities through self-hypnosis, resistance to pain, pressing on despite critical damage, the yogi slow breath to make them think your dead, mental combat, and an artificial personality as a back up.


Beyond them, how about these:

Enkidu

(yes, I know Hercules is a demigod, around 10th level you should seriously be on par with him.)

(ditto.)

[fbmf]

And my apologies: that link never showed tubgirl on my end (and thankfully still doesn't) it was supposed to be a Frazetta illustration of Tarzan. I suspect I ran afoul of a hotlinking defense mechanism.

All good....and that's an awesome counter-hotlink.
[/TGFBS]

[Prak]

And my apologies: that link never showed tubgirl on my end (and thankfully still doesn't) it was supposed to be a Frazetta illustration of Tarzan. I suspect I ran afoul of a hotlinking defense mechanism.

All good....and that's an awesome counter-hotlink.
[/TGFBS]

It is. I wondered what was up with the url.

[Maj]

The Shadow used hypnosis and mental suggestion to make people simply not see him, as far as I understand it.

Using the movie as a model, The Shadow has telepathy (he calls to Margo Lane for help when he's stuck in the tank), and telekinetic ability (phurba mastery, and he breaks the glass of every mirror in the hall and uses a shard to stab the bad guy).

Variations on the clouding of men's minds include invisibility, suggestion, and creating an alternate appearance.

Shiwan Khan can make things invisible (like an entire hotel), outright dominate people (Margo and her father were both dominated, so was the police officer that shot himself at the beginning of the movie), telekinetically and telepathically control the phurba.

I love that movie.