The Gaming Den

I think Frank said something like the Tome Assassin isn't overpowered doing (level+2)d6 damage every other turn when a wizard of same level deals (level)d6 to a group of enemies every turn. But is (level+2)d6 damage even enough? In the game I'm running an Assassin player just joined, and the group faced 2 colossal monstrous spider skeletons (from a premade adventure) and he hit one with a death attack that didn't kill it. In the same round our gadgeteer hit both with his empowered flamethrower for more damage than the assassin did (mind you that both characters are level 11). I realized that most of the enemies the group faces have more than (level+2)d6 HP, and that a death attack that doesn't kill a level-appropriate opponent seems kindof sad.

Of course, at level 11 he has 2 death attacks, but he still deals less damage than the gadgeteer (who really doesn't use any items other than class features, BTW), and I'd like to balance that. So I'm thinking of changing the death attack to +(level*2)d6 damage. That puts it on the same level as disintegrate, except as an attack at most twice every other round instead of forcing a fortitude save. Thoughts?

It's worth saying that Assassin was created as one of the earlier Tome classes and is massively hurt by the power creep found in RoW and 'homebrew.'

Theoretically, the Assassin could just cast a SoD, that reverts to massive damage on a save, for their Death Attack. So that they can fulfil the design goal of "kills a creature/2 rounds".

Giving them a choice between a Fort, Ref or Will based save at one level; and then giving out the other two at other levels might be effective.

Say, one at level 1; one at level 5 and one at level 10. If the Assassin multiclasses without having 4 levels, they lose their special Killing Blow, or whatever you want to call the power.

Assassinate: [Dungeonomicon Assassin Death Attack rules on Studying Opponent go here]. At levels 1, 5 and 10, the Assassin picks one of three types of Assassinations, Liver Shot, Sucking Wound or Headshot, as listed below. If the Assassin multiclasses with less than 4 levels in Assassin, they lose the special Save or Die ability and instead have normal Death Attacks.

Liver Shot: With a successful attack on a Studied Opponent, the Assassin strikes their targets core vital organs, forcing them to make a Fortitude Save or collapse at 0 Hit Points. On a successful Saving Throw, the target instead takes 2d6+1d6/Assassin Level in damage in addition to whatever damage the attack would have dealt.

Precise Wound: With a successful attack on a Studied Opponent, the Assassin strikes their targets driving organs, forcing them to make a Reflex Save or collapse at 0 Hit Points. On a successful Saving Throw, the target instead takes 2d6+1d6/Assassin Level in damage in addition to whatever damage the attack would have dealt.

Head Shot: With a successful attack on a Studied Opponent, the Assassin strikes their targets cogent organs, forcing them to make a Will Save or collapse at 0 Hit Points. On a successful Saving Throw, the target instead takes 2d6+1d6/Assassin Level in damage in addition to whatever damage the attack would have dealt.

Judging__Eagle wrote:Theoretically, the Assassin could just cast a SoD, that reverts to massive damage on a save, for their Death Attack. So that they can fulfil the design goal of "kills a creature/2 rounds".

Giving them a choice between a Fort, Ref or Will based save at one level; and then giving out the other two at other levels might be effective.

Say, one at level 1; one at level 5 and one at level 10. If the Assassin multiclasses without having 4 levels, they lose their special Killing Blow, or whatever you want to call the power.

Assassinate: [Dungeonomicon Assassin Death Attack rules on Studying Opponent go here]. At levels 1, 5 and 10, the Assassin picks one of three types of Assassinations, Liver Shot, Sucking Wound or Headshot, as listed below. If the Assassin multiclasses with less than 4 levels in Assassin, they lose the special Save or Die ability and instead have normal Death Attacks.

Liver Shot: With a successful attack on a Studied Opponent, the Assassin strikes their targets core vital organs, forcing them to make a Fortitude Save or collapse at 0 Hit Points. On a successful Saving Throw, the target instead takes 2d6+1d6/Assassin Level in damage in addition to whatever damage the attack would have dealt.

Precise Wound: With a successful attack on a Studied Opponent, the Assassin strikes their targets driving organs, forcing them to make a Reflex Save or collapse at 0 Hit Points. On a successful Saving Throw, the target instead takes 2d6+1d6/Assassin Level in damage in addition to whatever damage the attack would have dealt.

Head Shot: With a successful attack on a Studied Opponent, the Assassin strikes their targets cogent organs, forcing them to make a Will Save or collapse at 0 Hit Points. On a successful Saving Throw, the target instead takes 2d6+1d6/Assassin Level in damage in addition to whatever damage the attack would have dealt.

I like that a lot, with save DC 10 + 1/2HD + INT mod

What Brown Bear said.

Times infinity. Assassin is always going to be underpowered compared to anything made by Koumei, because Koumei's explicit balance aim is "PCs instantly win every fight in the first round with zero chance of failure."

Miryafa wrote: faced 2 colossal monstrous spider skeletons

The assassin player should look at his spell list instead of going for damage dealing here.

assassin rules text wrote: Spellcasting: The Assassin is an Arcane Spellcaster with the same spells per day and spells known progression as a Bard, except that he gains no more than three spell slots per level. An Assassin’s spells known may be chosen from the Sorcerer/Wizard list, and must be from the schools of Divination, Illusion, or Necromancy.
To cast an Assassin spell, she must have an Intelligence at least equal to 10 + the Spell level. The DC of the Assassin's spells is Intelligence based and the bonus spells are Intelligence based.

SRD wrote: Abilities
A skeleton’s Dexterity increases by +2, it has no Constitution or Intelligence score, its Wisdom changes to 10, and its Charisma changes to 1.
Skills

A skeleton has no skills.

Relevant points: they count as unitelligent and have spot and listen of +0

Level 2 necromancy has Command Undead which lets the assassin keep one as a pet for several days without allowing it a save. Two rounds and a pair of these and the assassin has not merely beaten the encounter but snowballed the enemies into the party entourage.

Level 2 Illusion has Invisibility, and if you review the SRD, a creature needs to succeed at a DC +20 Spot check, or beat the DC of a listen check just to locate the square to attack, meaning that anyone with +1 or better in both Hide and Move Silently can tiptoe past the spider encounter without ever being a valid target for attack.

Level 3 necromancy has Halt Undead, which holds up to three undead per casting, and again allows no save for nonintelligent undead.

Level 4 spells are rare and precious for an 11th level assassin, but level 4 illusion upgrades to Greater Invisibility, which lets the assassin not merely slip by non-intelligent undead, but kite them with death attacks by offsetting the hiding-while-sniping penalty

If the assassin knows any one of those four spells, there is very close to zero chance of losing an encounter against non-intelligent undead.


*****

Judging Eagle wrote: Assassinate: [Dungeonomicon Assassin Death Attack rules on Studying Opponent go here]. At levels 1, 5 and 10, the Assassin picks one of three types of Assassinations, Liver Shot, Sucking Wound or Headshot, as listed below. If the Assassin multiclasses with less than 4 levels in Assassin, they lose the special Save or Die ability and instead have normal Death Attacks.

Liver Shot: With a successful attack on a Studied Opponent, the Assassin strikes their targets core vital organs, forcing them to make a Fortitude Save or collapse at 0 Hit Points. On a successful Saving Throw, the target instead takes 2d6+1d6/Assassin Level in damage in addition to whatever damage the attack would have dealt.

Precise Wound: With a successful attack on a Studied Opponent, the Assassin strikes their targets driving organs, forcing them to make a Reflex Save or collapse at 0 Hit Points. On a successful Saving Throw, the target instead takes 2d6+1d6/Assassin Level in damage in addition to whatever damage the attack would have dealt.

Head Shot: With a successful attack on a Studied Opponent, the Assassin strikes their targets cogent organs, forcing them to make a Will Save or collapse at 0 Hit Points. On a successful Saving Throw, the target instead takes 2d6+1d6/Assassin Level in damage in addition to whatever damage the attack would have dealt.

Interesting concept, but a couple nitpicks:

Technically, those should be called
disabling attacks and I wonder if you might have meant for a failed save to take the target to -1 HP instead of merely 0.

You also might want to be sure the rules are clear for how such abilities would interacti with Evasion, Mettle, and Improved Evasion.

Kaelik wrote:What Brown Bear said.

Times infinity. Assassin is always going to be underpowered compared to anything made by Koumei, because Koumei's explicit balance aim is "PCs instantly win every fight in the first round with zero chance of failure."

What did Koumei write? Are Koumei and K the same person?

Technically, those should be called
disabling attacks and I wonder if you might have meant for a failed save to take the target to -1 HP instead of merely 0.

You also might want to be sure the rules are clear for how such abilities would interacti with Evasion, Mettle, and Improved Evasion.

I plan to rule it as -10 instead of 0 (so Great Fortitude DOES allow someone to survive), and that it destroys undead and constructs and brings them and outsiders to 0.

As for evasion and the like, I'd say by RAW they work as written, but that would destroy the Assassin's effectiveness against character-creatures and in PVP. The alternative is that they don't work at all, or only at partial effectiveness. In the interest of saving the Assassin, I'll go with: evasion doesn't work, mettle doesn't work, improved evasion gives an automatic save except when helpless. Thoughts?

Koumei might have wrote up the Gadegeteer class you mentioned. She is an Australian and is tough as dingos.

I think K is a man undergoing the slow painful transformation into a lawyer.

Miryafa wrote:What did Koumei write? Are Koumei and K the same person?

Koumei wrote this Gadgeteer.

K is not Koumei, nor am I K, since you are unfamiliar with Den personalities.

Koumei has also written many other classes, and is certainly within the top 4 of Den posters in terms of number of classes made. She has very different standards of balance than most everyone else on the forum. We all diverge from each other of course. But the Tome Assassin is towards one end of the F&K spectrum, and Koumei is very far in the other direction from even F&K's other end of the spectrum.

For what it's worth I just go with my gut and post it as a sort of Beta, then wait for Kaelik to correct it when he screams like a chimpanzee and also mentions what's wrong.

Koumei wrote:For what it's worth I just go with my gut and post it as a sort of Beta, then wait for Kaelik to correct it when he screams like a chimpanzee and also mentions what's wrong.

Pretty good method. You've summarized best practices for basically the entire software industry.

Side note, now that I think about it: is there such a thing as a version control system for phpbb? Probably would work on individual posts, could be useful for all the class editing we do.

Vebyast wrote:

Koumei wrote:For what it's worth I just go with my gut and post it as a sort of Beta, then wait for Kaelik to correct it when he screams like a chimpanzee and also mentions what's wrong.

Pretty good method. You've summarized best practices for basically the entire software industry.

Side note, now that I think about it: is there such a thing as a version control system for phpbb? Probably would work on individual posts, could be useful for all the class editing we do.

There are two things you can learn from the Gaming Den:
1) Good design practices.
2) How to be a zookeeper for hyper-intelligent shit-flinging apes.

DSMatticus wrote:There are two things you can learn from the Gaming Den:
1) Good design practices.
2) How to be a zookeeper for hyper-intelligent shit-flinging apes.

Sigged. Temporarily, at least.

DSMatticus wrote: There are two things you can learn from the Gaming Den:
1) Good design practices.
2) How to be a zookeeper for hyper-intelligent shit-flinging apes.

Welcome to my world.

Game On,
fbmf

Koumei wrote:For what it's worth I just go with my gut and post it as a sort of Beta, then wait for Kaelik to correct it when he screams like a chimpanzee and also mentions what's wrong.

I might have to cap the empowered fuel-efficient flamethrower invention my gadgeteer has at 10d10*1.5 damage, since it's hitting everything on the field, every turn. Yeah it's a bad fix like fireball, but unlike fireball you get unlimited uses of it.

Fair enough. Going over the class and tweaking it to keep things (specifically, the combinations that are supposed to be taken) in line is theoretically on my to-do list, like changing the Empower effect to something like "Reliable: if you roll less than the average, you do average damage instead".

Koumei has a knack for designing classes that both sound awesome and are mechanically interesting. I still want to play a Combat Chef based on Gordon Ramsey. The occasional overpowered ability (Surprise! I'm looking at you...) can usually be identified in play and toned down pretty easily.

All in all, I'd rather have an interesting class that needed some toning down than a perfectly balanced class that failed to wow me. If I'm never motivated to play a class, it doesn't matter how well balanced it is.

The issue with the Assassin's Death Attack that I've noted is that it relies on waiting a round doing nothing, which is rather counterproductive to the rocket launcher tag that is D&D 3.X.

Strong opponents will have been taken out (or be taking players out) with Direct Damage or Save or Dies/Sucks while the Assassin just sits there like a Dragon Ball Z character.

And since Death Attack is single target, the Assassin doesn't do well against lots of weak opponents either.

This makes the damage it does rather irrelevant, if impressive looking on paper.

An assassin has skills probably on par with a Beguiler, with worse spellcasting, and Death Attack doesn't synergize with the spellcasting (since Invisibility and True Strike and what-not require actions that can't be taken with Death Attack)

So Death Attack does need to be tweaked, or rewritten slightly, otherwise the Assassin just can't compete with other classes.

Darth Rabbitt wrote:The issue with the Assassin's Death Attack that I've noted is that it relies on waiting a round doing nothing, which is rather counterproductive to the rocket launcher tag that is D&D 3.X.

Strong opponents will have been taken out (or be taking players out) with Direct Damage or Save or Dies/Sucks while the Assassin just sits there like a Dragon Ball Z character.

And since Death Attack is single target, the Assassin doesn't do well against lots of weak opponents either.

This makes the damage it does rather irrelevant, if impressive looking on paper.

An assassin has skills probably on par with a Beguiler, with worse spellcasting, and Death Attack doesn't synergize with the spellcasting (since Invisibility and True Strike and what-not require actions that can't be taken with Death Attack)

So Death Attack does need to be tweaked, or rewritten slightly, otherwise the Assassin just can't compete with other classes.

I've been thinking about doubling enemy HP, since combat has been rocket launcher tag till now. I just had another idea: Assassin doesn't need to study an opponent of a creature type (human, balor, water orc, etc) he's studied before. Comments on those ideas?

I'm not sure how well or poorly the former will do (given how much of Tome, and 3.x in general, is based off combats lasting at most a few rounds, it seems a rather ambitious proposal), but IMO the latter would somewhat improve it, especially if you fight many opponents of a certain race during a campaign.

It would rather be like a better Ranger, but I'm not sure 'if kicking ass of a certain race and being slow on others' is a balanced concept for a character class.

I've considered making studying a swift action and lowering the Death Attack bonus dice, which could or could not be combined with your second idea.

Increasing HP really doesn't make 3.5e any less rocket taggy, it just drags out fights longer, unless everyone in the party is focused on doing HP damage as their primary means of bringing down enemies. Save-or-lose tends to hose people badly enough that the amount of HP they have just determines how long they take to mop up, not which side will win the conflict.

Death attack is pretty special in that it doesn't always play well with others. You're best off staying hidden while the assassin studies for her death attack. That's a great time to cast some short duration boosts or study for your own death attacks, but if you can't do those things, it's an obnoxious delay followed by 'the assassin is better than you'.

On the flip side, if other characters don't have stealth then easy encounters will often end before the assassin gets a death attack in. Hard encounters can result in non-hidden characters getting pounded by focused fire as they wait for the assassin to come online.

That said, it's already been mentioned that assassins have plenty of cool 1st round tricks from color spray to swift action flesh to stone (assuming you house-rule that the DC runs off of intelligence).