The Gaming Den

I'm trying DDO out again, and, well, the setting is as shitty as I remember it. It's this generic, fantasy with english accents thing. Eberron has fucking airships powered by bound elementals, fantasy robots as a player race, and scorpion driders. How the fuck do you make that setting boring?

If that's all it were, I'd be able to deal.

No, what's worse are the gods.

The Silver Flame is some bland christian church stand in, which would be tolerable if it wasn't pushed as the main religion of the land.

The Sovereign Host is nine generic good or neutral gods pushed as the other main religion, generally worshiped as a whole neutral good pantheon.

The Dark Six are just crap mirror universe doubles of the SH.

The Drow god is only interesting because he's a bug man. Other than that, he's a generic "how did your culture not kill itself out in it's infancy" evil god.

The only pantheon in Eberron I can bring myself to give a shit about is the Undying Court, and that's only because the creation of the Deathless type "because undead are EVUL! so we have to make a separate type rather than say that 'hey, some undead are good,' like in FR*" pisses me the fuck off so much that I want to punch the setting designer and WotC who picked his setting from a contest in the face until they all stop twitching.

Seriously. How the hell hard is it to create pantheons people can care about (and not because the pantheon actually offends their intelligence)?

Not that hard. The trick (for me) is to make pantheons along the same lines as actual ancient civilizations did. Different gods for different aspects of life, and the importance of the god is a good representation of how important that god is to their society (unlike real world pantheons, you can have the same god be represented in multiple different cultures, since they actually exist and are, for whatever reason, interested in propagating their dogma). Some gods are the embodiment of a particular race or culture's ideals, such that the god of crafting or industry might also be the god of the dwarves (assuming you're going with the dwarves-as-craftsmen cliche, at least).

Making an evil pantheon is then a matter of looking at the goblins, kobolds, orcs, and etc., and thinking "what kind of god would create or adopt these as their chosen flock?" Orcs will end up with a barbaric and savage war god, kobolds are more likely to end up with a crafty and deceitful god, goblins is kind of a toss-up particularly if you want all three (or more) varieties tied to one god. Ogres might have a simple god of strength, gnolls might have the same or share the orcs' war god, trolls will have a god of growing limbs back, and so on and so forth.

Strangely I always liked the eberron pantheon as easily the best on I had seen in a D&D world...ever.

They actually function like religions. Strangely, in the Eberron D&D books I got the impression that the soverign host was the default relgion of most regions and the the silver flame was an upstart relgion.

Basically, I like the fact that the Places of worship in Ebberron are smart enough to acknolwedge evil gods while not indicating that they have sunday service with a brunch afterwards.

Also, it was nice to see polythiesm done correctly, where people actually worship multiple Gods even if they consider one particular diety to be their "personal" afficlition.

I see very few clerics, most of the people I play with don't want to be errand boys to a bunch of super-powered fops. When they do crop up in a campaign as anything more than a curiosity it's when the the clergy and their church are an important and energetic part of the setting's culture. How the church acts should be tied pretty closely to the personality of the god. So it would be better to instead of telling the players what a god is about you show them with how their church acts and interacts with the other factions in the world.

Prak wrote:How the hell hard is it to create pantheons people can care about (and not because the pantheon actually offends their intelligence)?

I have to wonder (and please correct me if I'm wrong)... Is there any pantheon anywhere that you find interesting, or has your disdain for real world religions expanded to include fake world religions, too?

Usually the most successful approach to this- at least as evidenced by the scads of religions from fiction that people like- is to find some particular religion or type of religion, AT LEAST file the serial numbers off, and then say "In what way can I tart this up?" or "What if Jesus was a dragon" or "I'd really like to see how henotheism is applied when Polymorph is a legit religious practice."

Oh, sure, they function well, but they just aren't actually interesting as far as gods go.

@Cham: I like the idea of taking a page from WH40K Orcs for a troll god, they worship the words for things. Their god of battle is their battle cry. Their god of "medicine," fertility and regeneration is the word for regeneration. and so on.

Maj wrote:

Prak wrote:How the hell hard is it to create pantheons people can care about (and not because the pantheon actually offends their intelligence)?

I have to wonder (and please correct me if I'm wrong)... Is there any pantheon anywhere that you find interesting, or has your disdain for real world religions expanded to include fake world religions, too?

I find most mythological pantheons interesting. I can kinda bring myself to care about some of the greyhawk gods (hell, even their god of martyrdom is interesting). The gods in Libris Mortis are interesting.

The important thing isn't the gods (unless you're playing a game where the PCs regularly fight gods or are gods themselves) but the effects of religion on daily life. It's hard to create a realistic religious institution with depth and purpose. It's far easier to just take the Catholic Church and file the numbers off. But even if you take the lazy approach you can't just slot it in. Integrating a church into a world is tough work.

Making an evil pantheon is then a matter of looking at the goblins, kobolds, orcs, and etc., and thinking "what kind of god would create or adopt these as their chosen flock?" Orcs will end up with a barbaric and savage war god, kobolds are more likely to end up with a crafty and deceitful god, goblins is kind of a toss-up particularly if you want all three (or more) varieties tied to one god. Ogres might have a simple god of strength, gnolls might have the same or share the orcs' war god, trolls will have a god of growing limbs back, and so on and so forth.

I don't think there should be evil pantheons per se, just grey. The problem with D&D evil pantheons is that they're almost all utter assholes that no sane person would worship. They really tend to over do it with the evil. It's far easier to have a morally complex god with positive and negative facets relating to its nature.

For example, you might have a God of rain and fertility who makes sure that crops grow in your fields and babies grow in your wives. But he's also the god of rape and debauchery (the fields never consents to being rained on, after all). This when you pray to him for a healthy baby there is no guarantee that it will be your husband's, it's just as likely to be conceived at knife-point in a dark ally. And occasionally he'll take the form of a bull just have his way with any mortal he comes across, male or female.

hyzmarca wrote: I don't think there should be evil pantheons per se, just grey. The problem with D&D evil pantheons is that they're almost all utter assholes that no sane person would worship. They really tend to over do it with the evil. It's far easier to have a morally complex god with positive and negative facets relating to its nature.

I agree, but that strikes me as a matter of personal taste and the method of evil (or monster, whatever) pantheon generation is still exactly the same. Asking yourself "what kind of god would this culture revere over any other" is a great place to get ideas for gods that make sense and have a built-in connection with the world. Typically I make the orc god or the goblin god or whoever genuinely like whatever race they've created/adopted, so worshiping Skullsmash, God of Smashing Skulls is actually a pretty good idea for orcs.

Like souran, I'm a fairly big fan of the Eberron pantheon and how it's integrated into the world. I prolly like it more than any other official D&D pantheon, as it feels a bit more ambiguous and multifaceted than, say FR. Like how the Blood of Vol is both an innocent peasant religion and an evil cult.

I think personally that the best approach would be too mix the good and bad aspects around a theme. Dionysus may have been the god of Wine, Wine making and Grape farming; but he was also the god of Madness and Ecstasy.

Dionysus also believed in freedom and individuality for his followers, but he was also chaotic and dangerous. Poseidon calmed seas, and helped rescue sailors, but he demanded payment in the form of animal sacrifices. The God of the Old testament protected and guided the Israelites, but had no tolerance for disobedience.

In the real world, most of the Gods were not purely good or evil.

edit: I was going to mention Hades as being a mostly benign God, but he did kidnap a chick, so there's that.

Well, yeah. Then did nothing but try to be a good host.

Hades was really, really lonely and kidnapping ain't cool but he IS the one god of the Greek pantheon who kept his word once he gave it, and stuck to something once he started it.

Maxus wrote:Well, yeah. Then did nothing but try to be a good host.

Hades was really, really lonely and kidnapping ain't cool but he IS the one god of the Greek pantheon who kept his word once he gave it, and stuck to something once he started it.

That is true, but he also was jealous and petty. He did willingly allow people who've been under his control to leave.

It's sad that Hades is the most altruistic of the gods.

He's not any more selfish than any of the other Greek gods; actually, he's a lot less.

Just realized someone beat me to it.

as far as the kidnapping goes, that's seriously how Greek culture worked. In his cultural idiom, that was a neutral action

Prak_Anima wrote:as far as the kidnapping goes, that's seriously how Greek culture worked. In his cultural idiom, that was a neutral action

True enough. Consent never was a major issue for the Greeks, look at Helen and Paris.

Blicero wrote:Like souran, I'm a fairly big fan of the Eberron pantheon and how it's integrated into the world. I prolly like it more than any other official D&D pantheon, as it feels a bit more ambiguous and multifaceted than, say FR. Like how the Blood of Vol is both an innocent peasant religion and an evil cult.

The Silver Flame is a cool multifaceted religion. It's got a history worth giving a fuck about and that's really important in a game where you're supposed to be able to play Indiana Jones. You could make four Silver Flame clerics and have them get in an argument about dogma and none of their positions would be a strawman. That's way above D&D par.

The Sovereign host are pretty bland. It seems like they exist to support the Cleric class more than anything else. The best thing about them is they can't dickslap players the DM doesn't think are following their rules.

I like the Blood of Vol but it's more a campaign idea than anything else. You can kill Vol at level 10-ish which is about right for the end of an Eberron campaign. Everybody already knows all the plot twists (Kaius is a vampire!) but that might not be a bad thing.

My tips for creating divinities that people care about:

1. Have them stand for something. It can be almost anything, but people respect conviction. If possible, come up with a few impressive things that the deity has done in support of their conviction; if at least one of those things involved a meaningful loss, that's even better. Odin is a one-eyed god because he plucked out his own eye for wisdom, and that's awesome.

2. Slogans. Seriously, how much mileage has 'For the Emperor!' gotten the Emperor? Don't even get me started on Khorne or Arioch.

I prefer real-world mythological deities, because if some guy says "I'm a priest of Hades", most people know what Hades stands for. On the other side of the coin, someone saying "I'm a cleric of Ehlonna" is going to cause people to not give a crap because no one knows anything cool Ehlonna did.

Also, evil gods are a retarded concept. "I reward people for killing dudes in the street, hurr durr rurr needs to stop".

angelfromanotherpin wrote:Odin is a one-eyed god because he plucked out his own eye for wisdom, and that's awesome.

I'll agree with this wholeheartedly. Religion works like languages in that it's more than just its literal definition. A major religion isn't just the ten commandments; it's six or eight thousand years of stories, being told and retold and interpreted by and shaping the thought processes of hundreds of generations of people. Understanding that religion is impossible without those stories. Same thing holds true when you're building a fantasy setting: you need stories. You need history. Your culture/religion/language/nation exists in time, not just space.

Edit: as a case study, consider those ten commandments themselves. They aren't just ten rules to live by; there's an entire story surrounding them, about them being carved into stone tablets on the top of a mountain and everything. That's the kind of thing that gives a religion real lasting power, and you need it just as much for fictitious religions as you do for real ones.

Vebyast wrote:

angelfromanotherpin wrote:Odin is a one-eyed god because he plucked out his own eye for wisdom, and that's awesome.

I'll agree with this wholeheartedly. Religion works like languages in that it's more than just its literal definition. A major religion isn't just the ten commandments; it's six or eight thousand years of stories, being told and retold and interpreted by and shaping the thought processes of hundreds of generations of people. Understanding that religion is impossible without those stories. Same thing holds true when you're building a fantasy setting: you need stories. You need history. Your culture/religion/language/nation exists in time, not just space.

In the same vein, the same god mean different things to different people. Zeus or Hades weren't really one god, but more like a half a dozen gods to a dozen Greek peoples.

Likewise; Christians, Jews and Muslims worship the same god, merely different aspects.

ModelCitizen wrote:I like the Blood of Vol but it's more a campaign idea than anything else. You can kill Vol at level 10-ish which is about right for the end of an Eberron campaign. Everybody already knows all the plot twists (Kaius is a vampire!) but that might not be a bad thing.

"Kaius is a vampire!" is also a good model for similar twists elsewhere, since he has a (statted up) heir who works perfectly for "Psych, Kaius isn't a vampire!"

The basic question of how hard it is to make an interesting pantheon has an easy answer: super fucking hard. Real world pantheons are the results of hundreds if not thousands of years of trial and error, of embellishments and retractions, of merging and splitting. The Greek tribes stuck all the different trident wielding gods of all the different tribes into one entity - which is why Poseidon is the god of the Ocean, but also of horses, and earthquakes, and is the father of monsters. When you think about it, that's a pretty fucking weird portfolio. Definitely not someone's first attempt. The Hebrews ended up cutting three out of four of their gods for not being cool enough.

Making a fictional belief system that is even half as intricate and rich as one that grew up over generations of compromise is just really hard.I mean, sure you might write in some aspects for your gods, but will they be as deep as Parvati being Durga, Kali, Shitala Devi, Tara, Chandi, Sati, Shakti, Kathyayini, Mahagauri, Kamalatmika, Bhuvaneshwari, and Lalita? I'm guessing probably not.

-Username17

Due to players never remember any god's name, I'm probably just going to give them titles like the seven gods in Westeros. It's pretty easy to remember which one is the Smith and which one is the Mother. Hard to add more in-depth stuff in if your players don't even remember which is which.