Legend: some dude's d20 clone

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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik »

OgreBattle wrote:when should brackets be used?
I'm not sure about in the rules themselves, but if you were quoting the rules, standard form would be to use brackets to replace sections where you were editing the rules to remove miscellaneous parts. This is especially problematic because the kinds of things they bracket are also common replacements.

IE, "blah blah [Constitution Modifier] blah blah" instead of some thing that referenced lots of abilities including constitution modifier, but phrased it differently because of the list.

IE the original language was, "blah blah blah Constitution, Wisdom, and Squirrel modifier blah blah blah."
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Post by Koumei »

So have the most recent versions made things flow more nicely rather than keeping track of multiple small bonuses, interupts, situational modifiers, tokens, sub-actions and similar?
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Post by Prak »

It looks nice overall, but there are a lot of things to keep track of. As I said, it seems like play would be greatly aided by poker chips. Perhaps every player just needs a set of several colours with their initials on them with a key on the back of their sheet.
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Post by Avoraciopoctules »

I'm thinking about using Legend's rules for a game in the Mega Man X universe, maybe with a bit of tweaking. There might be some political/economic/negotiation stuff going on, but fighting crazy android terrorists and their robotic minions is definitely going to take the spotlight.

Anything I should consider before doing more detailed concepting work? Is there a better system for Maverick Hunters I missed?
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Post by ...You Lost Me »

I don't know what Mega Man X entails, but Legend actually sounds good for that. No real out-of-combat stuff means players really only interact with the environment using skills.

I haven't enjoyed social combat once since I've played the game, and I'd rather just do MTP for it.
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Post by Blicero »

...You Lost Me wrote: I haven't enjoyed social combat once since I've played the game, and I'd rather just do MTP for it.
What were your problems with it? During my group's brief experience with Legend, we did not actually try out any of the social combat or skill game systems. Looking at them, I'm not sure if they look super engaging.
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Post by Blicero »

I'm running a regular Legend game now, mostly because my players decided they wanted to try it out. So far, it's going decently. My players really enjoyed the process of character creation. But the high complexity threshold means that none of them actually know how to control their dudes all that well. I've had to sandbag encounters like crazy just to avoid TPKs, and there have already been two fights that ended with everyone getting knocked out. Both of those fights were below the expected encounter level.

Also, leveling up in this system is terrible, since each character has a vast array of numbers that are all dependent on your level. You more or less end up rewriting your character sheet every time you level up. The game is probably at the point where it would be less hassle to have a program that calculated all of your numbers for you. Which is not something I would want to have to deal with for a ttrpg.

That being said, Legend might have the best character creation system I've ever seen. It's impossible to read through the classes without thinking of tons of weird little combos and synergies that all manage to work out surprisingly well. I'm not a huge optimizer in general, and I can't help but be one in Legend. It's probably harder to create a suboptimal character in this game by randomly combining tracks than it is to create an above average or even just average character. Which is pretty neat.

And the combat minigame is genuinely well-designed. Most characters only have 1-2 options to choose from each round, but the choices you do get to make in combat tend to be meaningful.
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Post by erik »

I cannot square this:
Blicero wrote:My players really enjoyed the process of character creation. But the high complexity threshold means that none of them actually know how to control their dudes all that well. I've had to sandbag encounters like crazy just to avoid TPKs
With this:
Blicero wrote:It's probably harder to create a suboptimal character in this game by randomly combining tracks than it is to create an above average or even just average character. Which is pretty neat.

And the combat minigame is genuinely well-designed. Most characters only have 1-2 options to choose from each round, but the choices you do get to make in combat tend to be meaningful.
It is both very complex to the point of everyone failing at combat, and also so easy to build a character that cannot fail, and combat is simple?

I... wha, but, wha? :cry: I don't get it. I am more confused about the virtues of the system than before I didn't know anything about the system.
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Post by OgreBattle »

Blicero wrote: That being said, Legend might have the best character creation system I've ever seen. It's impossible to read through the classes without thinking of tons of weird little combos and synergies that all manage to work out surprisingly well. I'm not a huge optimizer in general, and I can't help but be one in Legend. It's probably harder to create a suboptimal character in this game by randomly combining tracks than it is to create an above average or even just average character. Which is pretty neat.
How's the multiclassing? With the track swapping. Are there no-brainer combos or is it all fairly well spread out?


Monk- Unarmed strikes are basically "Build your own melee weapon", neat!
Last edited by OgreBattle on Wed Nov 13, 2013 5:15 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by Blicero »

erik wrote:I cannot square this:
Blicero wrote:My players really enjoyed the process of character creation. But the high complexity threshold means that none of them actually know how to control their dudes all that well. I've had to sandbag encounters like crazy just to avoid TPKs
With this:
Blicero wrote:It's probably harder to create a suboptimal character in this game by randomly combining tracks than it is to create an above average or even just average character. Which is pretty neat.

And the combat minigame is genuinely well-designed. Most characters only have 1-2 options to choose from each round, but the choices you do get to make in combat tend to be meaningful.
It is both very complex to the point of everyone failing at combat, and also so easy to build a character that cannot fail, and combat is simple?

I... wha, but, wha? :cry: I don't get it. I am more confused about the virtues of the system than before I didn't know anything about the system.
Yeah, that was kind of incoherent and contradictory. My apologies.

Basically, it is very easy to make a viable character. The prewritten classes are all effective. But, should you delve into the world of multiclassing, you are very unlikely to fuck yourself up. Most fantasy/science fiction archetypes (with one major caveat) are buildable from like level 3-4 upward. It is an engaging pastime to look for multiclass synergy. (For example, Water Elemental goes really well with Swashbuckling. And being a Dragon complements being a Monk.)

However, having a competently built character is not a sufficient condition for victory in battle. Keeping track of all your character's numbers can be a nontrivial task for people who are not used to rules-heavy systems. If you forget about your damage reduction, or don't remember that one of your feats gives you an interrupt against certain types of attacks, then you will not be playing your character to their maximal efficiency.

It's not super easy to make a character that is simple to play. There are few feats that are just a passive bonus you write in once and then forget about.

In practice, most characters have 1-3 routines that they do each round. A basic example might be a Barbarian using his Move Action to activate Vigor and give himself some extra hp, his Standard to attack and trip, and his Swift to Cleave. Instead of using Vigor, maybe he could have debuffed an opponent with Perception. But he probably didn't have many other options for his Standard and Moves. (The specifics will of course depend wildly on your build.)

Basically, you'll do a lot of things each round, but there won't be a huge amount of variance in what those things are.

My players are not especially adept at rules-heavy systems. Despite this, they were still able to make competent characters. And they enjoyed the process of making these characters. However, they are having difficulty playing those characters to their fullest extents.



@ Ogre: As I mentioned, multiclassing is very well done. To the best of my knowledge, there are no track combos that break the game. (This is "break" in the 4E sense of "can kill dudes much more effectively than anyone else", not "break" in the 3E sense of "can erase ideas from existence and also timetravel".) The Legend community is small but filled with 133t haxxors, so bugs tend to get squashed pretty quickly. Some combos do end up being more optimal than others, but the claim is that a well-optimized character should never have more than +1 ECL or so compared to a standard build. I'm tempted to believe it.
Last edited by Blicero on Wed Nov 13, 2013 6:17 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by OgreBattle »

Whoah, awesome shoutout to Kamenrider/Tokusatsu with the Vigilante track.
Vigilante
Wherever the law can’t handle every crook wandering
the streets in search of easy prey, the
Vigilante comes out to lend a helping hand. These
champions and rebels equip themselves accordingly
for their task, to make sure that a stray
switchblade doesn’t put an end to their righteous
crusade, and always keep around a getaway ride
in case the local law enforcement gets funny ideas.


Image
1st Circle – Vigilante ArmorEX: With a dramatic gesture
and shouted command, a suit of incredible
armor snaps into existence and covers your body.
This provides a +2 item bonus to Athletics, and is
a Lesser item of your design with enchantments
as normal for magic armor of its tier (see Chapter
XIII), but does not count against your normal
limit of attuned magic items. When you gain your
4th circle in Vigilante, redesign this armor as a
Greater item, and when you gain your 6th circle,
redesign it as a Relic.

Image

2nd Circle – Brutal KickEX: You jump high in the sky,
then come streaking down towards your foe for a
devastating kick, whether or not you usually use
such attacks. As a standard action, you move up to
your movement speed without provoking attacks
of opportunity, and make a melee attack against an
opponent in your [Melee] range, which deals additional
damage equal to your level and can target
a [Flying] opponent even if you are not [Flying].
You can choose to treat your Unarmed Strike natural
weapon as a [Brutal 2], [Magnum] weapon for
purposes of this attack. At 10th level, you can make
2 attacks after moving this way, and the additional
damage for each attack increases to 2 per level
you possess. Against all expectations, you can still
activate Brutal Kick while mounted, using your
mount’s movement speed in place of your own.

Image

3rd Circle – Signature RideEX: You gain the ability to
call forth or dismiss a mysterious contraption as
part of a move action. This is a special mount that
will allow no rider other than you, and which you
can control in combat even without having the
Ride skill trained. It appears in an unoccupied
space adjacent to yours when summoned and disappears
from wherever it may be when dismissed,
dismounting you if you happen to be riding it at
the time. As a free action, you may climb onto
your Signature Ride without provoking an attack
of opportunity. It has a movement speed 15 ft
greater than yours, the Fly movement mode, and
a space equal in size and shape to your own.
While mounted on your Signature Ride, you
gain a 20% [Miss chance] against all attacks during
any [Round] in which you move at least 20 ft. You
may only have one Signature Ride, and it may benefit
from magic items that apply to mounts.

4th Circle – Unnatural ResilienceEX: Through esoteric
means, you are simply tougher and more enduring
than any life ought to be. If you make a successful
Fortitude save against an effect that would normally
have a lesser effect on a successful save (such
as a spell with a save of “Fortitude half ”), you instead
ignore the effect entirely.

5th Circle – Vigilante’s CourageEX: You have [Immunity]
to [Fear] and gain a +2 bonus to initiative checks,
due to your prodigious courage. Twice per
[Round], whenever this ability negates an effect,
Chapter VI: Additional Tracks 127
or you successfully make a Fortitude save, you
may make a Brutal Kick against the opponent
that created the effect, as long as your Brutal Kick
ability could bring you within your [Melee] range
of that opponent.

Image
6th Circle – Finishing MoveEX: You learn to devastate
your enemies, leaving you refreshed for your next
challenger. Once per [Encounter], as a standard
action, you may move up to your movement
speed without provoking attacks of opportunity,
and make a melee attack against an opponent in
your [Melee] range, which deals additional damage
equal to five times your level and can target
a [Flying] opponent even if you are not [Flying].
You can choose to treat your Unarmed Strike natural
weapon as a [Brutal 2], [Magnum] weapon for
purposes of this attack. You gain temporary HP
equal to the damage dealt by this attack.

7th Circle – UnbeatenEX: Once per [Encounter], as a
move action, you can heal all damage, setting your
current hit point total to your maximum HP.

Kamenrider

Vigilante/Iron Magi/Knight

Feats:
Battleforged
In an immensely painful operation, you were turned
into a true killing machine.
Benefit: You have armor and a weapon built into
your body. You gain a permanent +2 item bonus
to Armor Class, and gain your choice of a Melee
or Ranged natural weapon with three weapon
properties of your choice other than [Barbed] or
[Quick-draw].
Last edited by OgreBattle on Wed Nov 13, 2013 6:59 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by CatharzGodfoot »

They have steadily brought spell casting tracks into line with other tracks. At this point, a character that tacks on a casting track is only moderately better than one that did not. That's a pretty big accomplishment for a D20-universe game.

Consider adding the Shaman track to any character:
[*]At first circle you get telepathic communication between all allies.
[*]At second circle you get +2 to your attack rolls, damage, and magic save DCs, and can set your weapon on fire/cold/acid/lightning.
[*]At third circle you get immunity to death effects and being energy drained (which is admittedly pretty minor).
[*]At fourth circle you allies can gain resistance to all damage, go invisible, and fly at 600' speed (at the cost of being able only to move while you use those abilities).
[*]At 5th circle you allies get bonus to damage and slow people you hit.
[*]At 6th circle you allies get lesser resistance to all damage an immunity to being stunned or dazed.
[*]And only at 7th circle do you finally get miracle.
Of course, that's not including the more temporary effects you can create like hold monster (one of the few true SoDs in the game).
Last edited by CatharzGodfoot on Fri Nov 15, 2013 3:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by CatharzGodfoot »

Legend has pioneered a way of mapping out area effects on a grid in a straightforward, simple fashion:
Legend wrote:Lines are determined as follows:

»» Step 1. If the line originates from a square, the source of the effect chooses that square. If the line originates from a creature, the source of the effect chooses a square that creature occupies.

»» Step 2. The source of the effect chooses one non-diagonal direction. The source of the effect may then choose another non-diagonal direction that is not opposite the first chosen direction.

»» Step 3. The source of the effect chooses one non-diagonal direction. If only one direction was chosen in Step 2, this direction cannot be the same as the direction chosen in Step 2 or the direction opposite that direction. (Otherwise this direction may be the same as a direction chosen in Step 2.)

»» Step 4. The area of a line includes the following:
[*]4a. Each square within a distance equal to the line’s length of the square chosen in Step 1 that is each of the directions chosen in Step 2 from that square and is equal distance in each of the directions chosen in Step 2 as in each other direction chosen in Step 2 from that square.
If only one direction was chosen in Step 2, each square must be in the direction chosen in Step 2 and no other direction from the square.
[*]4b. Each square within a distance equal to half the line’s width of any square from Step 4a that is the direction chosen in Step 3 and no other direction from that square, and each square within a distance equal to half the difference of the line’s width and 5 ft of any square
from Step 4a that is the direction opposite the direction chosen in Step 3 and no other direction from that square.
Please let me know if you figure out what the fuck they mean.
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Post by Sashi »

I think I figured it out. They have a fairly clever idea on how to do AOE on the diagonal without making weird diamond gaps or having diagonal lines affect 40% more squares.

If the origin of the effect occupies more than one square (such as an ogre mage casting lightning bolt), the creator of the effect must designate a single square as the origin.

The line's area of effect extends Length squares from the origin, and is Width squares wide, centered at the origin.

The direction the effect extends in may be straight or diagonal. If straight, the width is measured perpindicular to that direction. If diagonal, the width is measured on a 45 degree angle to that direction (creator's choice). In other words, always count the width in a nondiagonal direction.
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Post by Leress »

I'm sorry, my brain started oozing out of my nose after reading step 2.
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Post by ...You Lost Me »

That is lot of lines to choose.
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Post by Ghremdal »

Is it so hard to say:

Choose starting square A. Choose end square B. Draw line from middle of square A to middle of square B. All squares the line passes through (touches) are affected.

Sure once in a while you might get weird cases, but those are fucking acceptable over the mess they made with that description.
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Post by OgreBattle »

Ghremdal wrote:Is it so hard to say:

Choose starting square A. Choose end square B. Draw line from middle of square A to middle of square B. All squares the line passes through (touches) are affected.

Sure once in a while you might get weird cases, but those are fucking acceptable over the mess they made with that description.
That's just drawing a line, like setting up a wall of fire, or am I missing something?

Is there a visual example of this?
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Post by hogarth »

Legend wrote:The source of the effect chooses one non-diagonal direction.
The source of the effect puts the lotion on its skin, or else it gets the hose again.
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Post by Ice9 »

I can't even tell from those rules whether you're allowed to make lines at angles other than orthagonal and 45-degree diagonal.

If you can, then I'm not sure why you need a special rule for 45-degree diagonals, and if you can't then:
A) That's kinda shitty
B) It would be be lot fucking simpler to just show what the two possible line shapes look like.
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Post by Roog »

Legend wrote:Lines are determined as follows:

»» Step 1. If the line originates from a square, the source of the effect chooses that square. If the line originates from a creature, the source of the effect chooses a square that creature occupies.

»» Step 2. The source of the effect chooses one non-diagonal direction. The source of the effect may then choose another non-diagonal direction that is not opposite the first chosen direction.

»» Step 3. The source of the effect chooses one non-diagonal direction. If only one direction was chosen in Step 2, this direction cannot be the same as the direction chosen in Step 2 or the direction opposite that direction. (Otherwise this direction may be the same as a direction chosen in Step 2.)

»» Step 4. The area of a line includes the following:
[*]4a. Each square within a distance equal to the line’s length of the square chosen in Step 1 that is each of the directions chosen in Step 2 from that square and is equal distance in each of the directions chosen in Step 2 as in each other direction chosen in Step 2 from that square.
If only one direction was chosen in Step 2, each square must be in the direction chosen in Step 2 and no other direction from the square.
[*]4b. Each square within a distance equal to half the line’s width of any square from Step 4a that is the direction chosen in Step 3 and no other direction from that square, and each square within a distance equal to half the difference of the line’s width and 5 ft of any square
from Step 4a that is the direction opposite the direction chosen in Step 3 and no other direction from that square.
If I interpret this correctly then:


- All choices of line must be non-diagonal. Which should mean that line choices are the cardinal directions, N/S/E/W/U/D
- Choices in step two gives outcomes of:
(Lets call them Direction D, Orthogonal Directions D', D", etc, and Opposite Direction ~D)
- (A) (D, -)
- (B) (D, D')
- (C) (D, D)
- Step three expands these choices
the later steps make a distinction between lines chosen in differnent steps
- (A1) (D, -, D')
- (B1) (D, D', D)
- (B2) (D, D', D")
- (B3) (D, D', ~D)
- (B4) (D, D',~D')
- (C1) (D, D, D')

- Step 4a appears to be phrased as follows:
Each square within a distance equal to the line’s length of the square chosen in Step 1 that is
- (in) each of the directions chosen in Step 2 from that square
- and is equal distance in each of the directions chosen in Step 2 as in each other direction chosen in Step 2 from that square.

If the two directions are different, then only the origin square meets this critera.
If they are the same (or only one direction is was chosen) then this is a line of squares running in a cardinal direction.

- Step 4b includes only squares within distances that depend the with of a line.
Assuming that the is a defined numeric value then this will turn the line of squares into a rectangle
that that extends width squares on one side of the line and 1/2 width (to a maximun of 1) squares in the other direction.


- Alternativly if step 4a is meant to say:
Each square within a distance equal to the line’s length of the square chosen in Step 1
that is equal distance in each of the directions chosen in Step 2 as in each other direction chosen in Step 2 from that square.

Then the squares that meet this criteria will be a line in either a cardinal direction or a line at 45 degrees

- Step 4b then expans that line into a rectangle aligned along cardinal directions, a 45 degree rhomboid,
or a rectangle alligned along along a 45 degree angle and extending in an orthogonal direction.
that that extends width squares on one side of the line and 1/2 width (to a maximun of 1) squares in the other direction.
Last edited by Roog on Tue Nov 19, 2013 7:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by John Magnum »

What the fuck
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Post by Prak »

Yeah, my eyes glazed over with just the Ds...
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Post by tussock »

Lines are determined as follows:

[*] 1: The caster chooses an origin square, for a creature that square must be one it occupies. Lines have a length and a width.

[*] 2: The caster chooses a length to run exactly strait or diagonal on the grid from there.

[*] 3: The caster chooses a strait orthogonal line for width spread from that length.

[*] 4: The area is centred on the length line, width running strait out from it rounding even widths consistently to one side or the other.

e.g. you have a 20-square 4-width line from your square. You fire it North-East, spreading East, so it's the first 20 diagonal NE squares plus two squares East and one square West of each them.
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Post by Grek »

Ice9 wrote:B) It would be be lot fucking simpler to just show what the two possible line shapes look like.
There's actually six shapes in two dimensions. See the following examples of length 20, width 4 lines.

Image

Three dimensional lines don't appear to be possible and would make things even more complicated if they were allowed.
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