[Dom3] Learning Game

[Avoraciopoctules]

So there was some discussion about setting up a new Dom3 game for new/inexperienced players. Now that my last 2nd game has concluded, I have a frivolous activity slot open again, and would be willing to host such a game.

Since I recall more one person was interested in a game, Llamaserver is probably a good idea. But further details were not discussed. Anyone still interested have era / setting / mod preferences?

[Kaelik]

I am still interested. My preferences are for no mods, and my era preferences are non existent.

[Zinegata]

I suspect I'm a bit too advanced for a beginner's game, but I can offer neutral 3rd-party advice for any players. Including Pretender choices, research paths, etc.

[Avoraciopoctules]

I am discussing this game with Akula, and an idea was brought up. This is a learning game. If you are an experienced player, there are still some things you probably have not tried. If you are playing something new to you and documenting your turns, then that might create more parity among the player nations and ensure that everyone gets the chance to learn stuff.

[Zinegata]

Alright, don't say I didn't warn you though

[Avoraciopoctules]

Anything you haven't played before? Monkey nation? Ulm? I could hook you up with a weird mod nation if you think you've experienced everything core Dom3 has to offer.

This should probably be an MA game.

[Zinegata]

Anything you haven't played before? Monkey nation? Ulm? I could hook you up with a weird mod nation if you think you've experienced everything core Dom3 has to offer.

This should probably be an MA game.

I haven't actually played a huge variety of nations in MP (lots of single player testing though), but I think I do know enough now to at least come up with a game plan.

Tell you what, let everyone pick their preferred nation first, then I'll pick mine and I'll do a write-up on my Pretender / Scale choices.

[Akula]

I am discussing this game with Akula, and an idea was brought up. This is a learning game. If you are an experienced player, there are still some things you probably have not tried. If you are playing something new to you and documenting your turns, then that might create more parity among the player nations and ensure that everyone gets the chance to learn stuff.

I'd be willing to make this bargain, again only if no one objects.

I figure that I could play a nation that I have never touched before and write everything up for public viewing. If someone wants to use my troop dispositions to win a war with me, well that's their business.

Regardless of my playing in the game, I would suggest that a newbie game be either MA with no Ashdod, or LA with no Ermor or R'lyeh. The reason being that the EA is basically too crazy to ban the major rush threats, and these three nations are the most game warping in the other two ages. Ermor and R'lyeh in specific are beatable, but need specific things that a new player may not have at all in their gameplan, or even know about. Ashdod is just an EA supernation in the MA with no real competition.

I would also suggest that the game use the Endgame Diversity mod, not because I feel it actually diversifies the endgame, but because it makes it more difficult to screw yourself out of the kind of magic that you need to be successful endgame at pretender creation.

[Kaelik]

1) What does the endgame diversity mod do?

2) I really don't want to play a game while reading multiple other players turns. I really really don't want part of the handicap that brings someone down to my level being me reading their troop positions, attack intentions, formations/scripting ect.

I do not think that actually helps me learn the game. I certainly don't care if people write up their turns, and I would read them after, but I don't want to be reading them during the game, and because of that, I don't want that to be part of the handicap.

[Zinegata]

I'd second the MA vote simply because we don't have to deal with the Zombie Apocalypse of LA, and the capital-centric nature of EA.

I'm so-so about Endgame Diversity, as that's gonna add yet another level of long-term planning. I'd prefer base and maybe have a second game with mods.

[Zinegata]

1) What does the endgame diversity mod do?

It gives high-end super summons for all schools of magic. In the base game there's generally a limit on your end-game summons (Death has Tartarians, but you need the Chalice/GoH to go with it. Elemental Royalty and ArchDevils are a limited commodity).

But End-Game Diversity mod gives all schools a few extra super end-game summons in case people beat you to the Fire Kings and such.

2) I really don't want to play a game while reading multiple other players turns. I really really don't want part of the handicap that brings someone down to my level being me reading their troop positions, attack intentions, formations/scripting ect.

I do not think that actually helps me learn the game. I certainly don't care if people write up their turns, and I would read them after, but I don't want to be reading them during the game, and because of that, I don't want that to be part of the handicap.

I do not plan on giving out my nation's entire dispositions (probably a few write ups mid-game); but I do plan on showing my Pretender and Scale choices to show what kind of pre-work is necessary before embarking on a Dominions game.

That's not an entirely huge handicap since all I'll be showing are high-level strategic goals that may evolve anyway as the game goes along.

[Akula]

1) What does the endgame diversity mod do?

2) I really don't want to play a game while reading multiple other players turns. I really really don't want part of the handicap that brings someone down to my level being me reading their troop positions, attack intentions, formations/scripting ect.

I do not think that actually helps me learn the game. I certainly don't care if people write up their turns, and I would read them after, but I don't want to be reading them during the game, and because of that, I don't want that to be part of the handicap.

1) It adds SC quality summons in multiple paths. That means that you don't have to plan your late game on either wishing or tartarians. Which makes it more unlikely that a pretender build is deeply flawed for any given nation.

2) I was always intending to s-block my write-ups, except maybe god and scales. I was intending to play a nation that I don't have much experience with. I'm also pretty rusty with this game, I haven't touched it since being eliminated from the VaeVictus game, and that was more than 4 months ago. Do you have any suggestions about potential handicap? The only thing I could think of was that the more experienced players deliberately play the weaker nations. I suppose that we could also be given gods built by someone else, but I don't know how that would effect the learning value of turn write-ups.

[Zinegata]

Being given a Pretender designed by someone else is a WAY worse handicap than playing crap nations.

[Avoraciopoctules]

Endgame Diversity Mod:
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=45056

[Avoraciopoctules]

I think this should work for evening things up:
- You should play something new regardless of skill level.
- If you are good/experienced with this game, you should do some write-ups on your strategy as you play through the game. You don't have to post them right away, and other people don't have to read them, but if you know the game, sharing that knowledge will make this game more educational for everyone.
- No difficult to counter factions. This cuts out Ashdod, and maybe Ermor / Pangaea as well, depending on how people feel about lots of freespawn.

[Zinegata]

Ermor's not that bad in MA. Their research turns wretched if they focus on raising undead.

[tenuki]

Endgame Diversity Mod:
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=45056

Giving tarts some competition is one thing, but clamming still breaks the game. Have you considered using CBM 1.92?

[Akula]

Endgame Diversity Mod:
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=45056

Giving tarts some competition is one thing, but clamming still breaks the game. Have you considered using CBM 1.92?

1.6 was considered, but it would cause too much drama, and since most of the games on this forum are vanilla it would devalue the learning experience of the game. Again, the primary reason that I suggested EDM is that I don't want to see someone's god and go, "Well, your nation doesn't have death or astral, so your god needed to provide at least one of those or you will eventually lose to nations that have them. Hope that helps you for next time!"

[Zinegata]

Well, they could always try to win via an all-out early rush...

And meh, I've gotten used to getting paranoid over each nation's clam production to make me want to switch to CBM.

[Username17]

Giving tarts some competition is one thing, but clamming still breaks the game. Have you considered using CBM 1.92?

That is a vacuous claim. There aren't enough astral sites, in the game. Without clams, you can't make Gandharva armies and Bandar Log isn't even playable. The CBM wankers constantly rant about how this or that breaks the game, but why is it that the factions that specialize in those things don't always win?

Seriously, when was the last time you heard someone bitching that Abyssia or Pangaea were unstoppable in the overall game? They are the undisputed masters of making blood stones, but how much actual victory does that translate to?

The best clamming factions in the whole game are Oceania and Bandar Log, have you heard anyone site those factions as being unbeatable ever?

It takes a long time for clams to pay off. Since the game actually ends at some point, any particular clam may or may not even pan out. My last game as Marignon ended on turn 81. Therefore clams only made a single gem if they were built before turn 79. If you build it on turn 79 it comes online on turn 80, and then it makes its first gem on turn 81, which you never get to fucking see because the game is over. If you built it on turn 65, you would only barely see a breakeven in gems - which means it still isn't worth the hammer time, hero time, or risk of losing it by having it be on an actual hero who could be assassinated by ninjas or remote attack spells.

The period where clams are worth building is actually quite narrow. CBM people like to stroke themselves to the time they built a hundred clams or something stupid, but are you really telling me they couldn't go out and conquer territories that built 50 gems a turn (like 17 provinces in the late game) by making an incredibly cheaper pile of one hundred bottles of living water instead? The game is actually zero sum enough that taking 50 gems from your opponent is actually just as good as making a hundred gems yourself.

-Username17

[Zinegata]

While it's true that making clams in the late game will not pay off, having a critical mass of clams enables you to cast Wish, wherein you can trade in 100 Astral gems for 175 gems (25 for each of the paths except blood). If you can cast it every turn because your Astral income is just that good, you almost halve the time you need to recover your gems spent.

Likewise, I've found that Blood Stoning is more about converting Blood Slaves (of which the supply is usually huge) into Earth gems. With a hammer, it's more like waiting 7 turns to start getting your Earth gems back; which you can then use for some end-game magic.

I would not discount the importance of mass clamming and blood-stoning, particularly in relatively peaceful games when people aren't pressured to spend their gems in stuff that can fight immediately.

[Akula]

snip

The paranoia gem gens create is enough reason for me to not want to play with them sometimes. Also, I have seen battle reports that involve a hoard of SCs literally getting master enslaved turn one of a battle, and then shown a strategic map that has been burned to embers by repeated armageddons. Some people really do end up dominating the game because holding clams.

Personally I don't like gem gens, they are boring to make and manage, frustrating to do diplomacy around, and boring to deal with if they reach critical mass. They were originally intended to bring a stream of gems to front line casters who were using them in battle, not as an "economy" item. If it were up to me, I would limit the gem gens per nation to something like 20, and add their gems to the gem income graph. Since those are both impossible, the best solution would be to remove them (const 12 with the unique items) and reprice and repath spells in response. Which would merely be a huge amount of work that would require many testing games and likely take years.

[Username17]

I would not discount the importance of mass clamming and blood-stoning.

I'm definitely not. I think Blood Stones are a huge advantage for the factions that get easy access to them. Hell, I think they are such a huge advantage that in my Marignon game I seriously boosted a Wolf Tribe Shaman to be able to summon Lamia Queens so that I could blood hunt for the slaves to empower a troll king so he could make Blood Stones. Not because that was an efficient use of gems, but because Blood Stones are also a really powerful Earth magic booster and the difference between sending in Troll kings who are earth 4 with boots and sending in Troll Kings who are Earth 5 and have casting gems every turn with boots and a blood stone is huge on the battlefield. The factions who can do that natively and can also spam that shit early enough that they can get a gem profit out of the deal are to be envied.

But nonetheless, Abyssia and Pangaea don't always win. That makes the CBM claim that Blood Stones break the game extremely suspect. I'm not even sure they win more than average. They are strong factions, but so are Caelum, Ermor, and Jotunheim.

I think it's quite telling that of the two factions that are most invested in Clamming (Oceania and Bandar Log), one of them is very weak (Oceania) and the other is medium-weak (Bandar Log). No advantage in clamming makes up for having a map move of 1 on your battle mages.

-Username17

[tenuki]

I don't think Blood Stones are broken.

However, 2 of the 3 vanilla MP games I've seen the end of so far were won by the nation that had the most clams. One of them featured EA TC (strong!) with a W9S9 oracle. About 70 clams + Wish = WIN; the gem income from provinces didn't even matter.

That's not a lot of games to have played in, but it's enough to make me at least want to give CBM+EDM a try.

[Zinegata]

Anyway... we have Kaelik, Av, Akula. Who else? You up for this tenuki?