Skills do nothing. Game design poison: nerdrage episode #1.

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I like skills in D&D because

Poll ended at Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:43 am

I did not know any better.
4
7%
My character sheets are not cluttered enough.
8
13%
tussock is an idiot.
39
65%
Wat?!? I never liked skills in D&D!
9
15%
 
Total votes: 60

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tussock
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Skills do nothing. Game design poison: nerdrage episode #1.

Post by tussock »

Here's the thing. Got linked from here to where some dude on wotc.com said ...
"I hate the new (5e) charm person because
*It renders several skills meaningless.
*It destroys creativity by being an easy out.
*It can utterly demolish the DM's storyline and render a challenge meaningless."
There's so much wrong with that statement, but I'm going to focus on the first bit.

Because skills ultimately aren't rendered useless by spells. They're rendered useless by the fact they don't do anything in the first place. Nothing. They just are useless. Not the 3.0 ones they got rid of, but all of them. That was, I presume, the point of skills in d20: a way to differentiate your otherwise identical characters without changing how the game plays out.

Let's go over a few. Or, what the hell, let's go over all of the 3.5 skills, there's not that many.
  • Appraise: You carry everything home and sell it for half market value. Knowing what things are worth has zero game impact.
  • Balance: It's a surprise save vs a couple of low level spells, which should be Ref saves anyway. Otherwise, it's worth less than 10gp of rope, hook, and spikes. If the DM does give you something to "balance" on at a critical moment, it fucks your combat ability and separates you from the party, so you don't do it anyway.
  • Bluff: It allows you one sneak attack, at the cost of two standard actions, or with a feat as one full round action. No one ever takes that deal. Otherwise you get to pretend to be something you're not, for a moment, if you also have disguise and forgery and the DM wants you to succeed. Because have you seen the DCs? If the DM likes what you said it's randomly -5 to 15, which is totally random for people with or without the skill. If the DM hates what you said it's 21 to 40, and you will always fail no matter what. Magic Tea Party is at least honest about it.
  • Climb: A knotted rope off a hook is DC 0, and throwing a grapple is take-20 and so always works. Otherwise like balance, a rare surprise saving throw, but completely pointless and will kill you for being creative with it.
  • Concentration: Caster tax on skill points. Never fails past level 5, has a level 1 trap feat attached, may as well be a casterlevel check, only with DCs that work.
  • Craft: Just, no.
  • Decipher Script: Literally does nothing. Maybe the DM will throw you a clue via this skill, but that's unlikely out here in the real world.
  • Diplomacy: This skill wins D&D. As such, no one allows it to do anything, because no one wants to win D&D with a single skill check.
  • Disable Device: Hit it with your axe. I'm not even kidding. Disabling spells? Have you seen the DCs? The fact that to find those spells automatically sets them off?
  • Disguise: Opposed by Spot, which monsters all have in spades. Your chances of doing anything useful with it after passing twenty critters is zero. Old stories about walking around Drow city in disguise work with MTP, but cannot work here.
  • Escape Artist: Like the DM isn't going to give you a way to escape anyway.
  • Forgery: You present your warrant to the dragon, he breathes on it. OK, in a town mission, by 6th or 7th level you can have all the documents you need to win D&D with. Again, no one wants to win D&D like that, and the DM will just add an opponent with Forgery to nail you anyway. Maybe if you never really use it?
  • Gather Information: If you don't have this skill, you will still get the same information somehow, because you need to have it to finish the adventure. At best it's begging the DM to support your character concept better with Magic Tea Party.
  • Handle Animal: Skill tax on Druids and Rangers that everyone ignores. It's actually a move-action attack for low-level grunts and all spellcasters too, but no one does that either, mostly because animals are crazy expensive at low level and dead anyway at high level. You can train a nice mount if the DM gives you a year or five of downtime: as if.
  • Heal: This is actually made useless by spells. The most iconic spells in the game behind Fireball and Lightning Bolt. If we can imagine a game without healing magic, this skill is far too weak to play D&D with. Some vague use at very low levels against poison and disease, if anyone cared about poison and disease.
  • Hide: Everything has massive Spot ranks, and as you have to make dozens of checks to get anywhere or do anything while hidden it fails. It's completely overwhelmed not by spells but by amazing game effects like doors, corners, barrels, small bushes, and tables. Furniture is better than this. By far.
  • Intimidate: The normal use is to make someone hate you. The alternate use is to give up all your attacks to maybe give someone -2 to hit for one attack of theirs, which is otherwise known as Aid Another. Doing either of these things hurts your character.
  • Jump: It's a fancy way of saying people in heavy armour can't jump. Plate and Shield is like -13, so they can't even jump as far as they can step. If your Fighter puts all his skill points here, at Epic levels he will be able to jump across thirty foot gaps, unless he's wearing any armour. That does sort of work, it's just that nobody cares. 8' high? So short ladders are Epic now?
  • Knowledge: Begging the DM to tell your character the stuff you already know.
  • Listen: All the monsters have this to kill your Move Silently skill. You can, eventually, listen at doors with it, but everything relevant will hear you first.
  • Move Silently: Forget about it, they can still hear you.
  • Open Lock: Break door with axe.
  • Perform: Roll high enough and the DM is supposed to send Angels from the heavens to make babies with you. Really though, it's just a skill tax on Bards.
  • Profession: Again, no.
  • Ride: This is what stops 1st level characters riding the horse they can't afford to buy. At 2nd level everything automatically works. At higher levels it would have let you ride weaker animals in combat, only they've already died. Marginally useful for classes with level appropriate mounts who don't get a class feature that ignores these checks. So ... no one.
  • Search: takes two minutes per square and works without any ranks. Lets mid-level Rogues find the magic trap that already killed them.
  • Sense Motive: Like a Paladin's Detect Evil, it tells you if the demon you're talking to means you any harm, only this one takes a full minute of careful eye-balling. Guys? The demon always means you harm. Always.
  • Sleight of Hand: WAIT! THIS SKILL WORKS! Unless anyone's watching. Sort of a "stupid tricks you can play on people without Spot". A bit like Hide, only it will probably never come up in a game.
  • Spellcraft: the other Spellcaster tax. Mostly functional because there's no retries and it's mostly happening in combat. If you can ignore how many dice rolls it adds to every minor event in the game if used as written, it's basically functional, though mostly annoyingly pointless.
  • Spot: It's the secret fourth saving throw category, which many 20th level Characters have at +0. Without this, you basically have a "kick me" sign on your back, but you won't notice it, so, meh. Every monster has this, most PCs don't.
  • Survival: Does anyone play the overland game? Not if no one has survival they don't. If they do, why would you want it all in a single skill anyway, rather than a bunch of different saves and skills and class abilities, like any serious part of the game?
  • Swim: You drown. All water is a trap. Staying afloat for a few seconds in "stormy" water is an Epic ability, apparently, and even God Himself can't swim in any sort of armour. It's brutally realistic that people drown when pulled under water, but this skill doesn't change that, at all.
  • Tumble: saves you moving 10' further by costing you 10' of movement at extra risk. In tight confines, you normally can't move either. Careful maxing this out to try and make it reliable, all the other skills do so much less than nothing that this skill which still basically does nothing is often nerfed when it succeeds regularly.
  • UMD: WAIT! THIS SKILL WORKS TOO! Unless you want to use it in combat at low to mid levels. It's basically a rule that says Rogues can use wands at high level. Oh, and you're actually supposed to roll a d20 dozens of times to try and wear items reserved for other classes, because that's fun.
  • Use Rope: This saves you taking-20 when using the hook that bypasses all the physical skills. Amazingly obscure fact of 3e, untrained people with Dex < 10 cannot tie knots.
Oh, and I ignored the stuff where you make money, because no one lets you sit back for five years and buy masterwork everything before you start playing at first level anyway, and after that no one cares.

So, it's what everyone knows. The only real sneaky skill is UMD, but only at high levels, all casters take Spellcraft and Concentration because they're basic (if pointlessly fussy) class functions disguised as skills, and grunts have no skills. Everyone buys themselves a Spot save if they can, because why not, Listen too if they expect to be functionally blind often.


But, for reals, people are still complaining about spells overpowering that 26 pages of nothing, and that's what gave us 4e's pile-of-nothing class powers. Skills are secretly only there to give your characters a backstory, like NWPs were, like Special Skills were before that, not to be used in the game.

You know why the 3.5 Jump spell doesn't work? Because the 3.0 version made someone feel small in the pants after they took the time to spend skill points on Jump. Clearly, the game would be better for everyone if the system did not exist, because we could have one slightly less useless first level spell, while freeing up 26 pages for something usable, like a cheaper book.
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Post by Lokathor »

So basically what you need instead of a skill system is a rule where characters can just make a level check to know things about the game world's lore in an info dump or a recalled memory or a backstory explanation or whatever.

Which is an alright rule.

But then you have people wanting to be better at some knowledge types at the expense of others.

Then they want to be better at some non-combat actions like hunting or pottery or blacksmithing at the expense of others.

Then you eventually have a skill system again. =/
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Post by Winnah »

I dislike the new charm person because of the current text of the no-save threshold.

Stabbing people until you're certain they will love you is a horrible method of gaining advantage on a social test, even worse when you expand/houserule the limitations of the spell beyond a simple attitude adjustment with regards the caster.

Now, if the no-save threshold was based on level, or max hp, I would not have a problem.

As for skills, I'll have to see more before I feel comfortable commenting.
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

Stabbing people until you're certain they will love you is a horrible method of gaining advantage on a social test,
Charm Person and Sleep totes need a sarcastic new name to reflect this weirdness.

Fraternity Rapist's Charm? Yandere's Charm? Hostel's Charm?
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by Winnah »

'Induce Abusive Relationship' was the cleverest response I have seen.

I kind of detest the part of myself that chuckled at that one.
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

... me, too. :gross:
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by Whatever »

Ugh, didn't we already discuss how awful that implementation of Charm Person would be? And now it's a real thing?
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Post by OgreBattle »

A name?

Rapelay!
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Post by erik »

I don't think there's much argument that DnD skills were not executed very well, however, I think they are attempting to fill a useful purpose and cannot be entirely dispensed with.

I've been pondering recently which skills I find useful. The list I came up with so far generally is:

Awareness
Combat (Melee, Ranged, Thrown)
Discipline (Medicine, Wilderness Lore, Seamanship)
Hard Sell
Investigation (Search, Research, Interrogation)
Knowledge
Larceny (Forgery, Legerdemain, Disable Device)
Linguist
Mobility (Tumble, Pursuit, Acrobatic)
Professional
Soft Sell
Spell Crafting (Runes, Battlecasting, Identification)
Stealth

I want a stealth minigame (stealth vs. awareness)
I want a pursuit minigame (mobility vs. mobility)
I want characters to feel they are special because they have particular skills which appear useful (even if ultimately the plot *will* move on regardless)

My current concerns:
Only some are for combat
Some are crappier than others (perhaps make primary/secondary skill distinctions)
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Post by hogarth »

Some 3.5 skills work just fine, as far as I'm concerned:
* Climb
* Jump
* Swim

Other skills are necessary (in the sense that they're the type of thing that players like to do), although the 3.5 implementation is mediocre at best:
* Disguise
* Forgery
* Handle Animal
* Survival (the tracking part, anyways)

Other skills are just a collossal headache and maybe don't belong in the skill system to begin with:
* Stealth
* Perception
* Diplomacy
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Post by Desdan_Mervolam »

I chose "Tussock is an Idiot" because when insulting the OP is an option, why shouldn't you?

I don't think skills are exactly useless in D&D, but they're certainly close. The D&D skill system has a lot of fundamental design problems. Too many things working at odds with each other.

But I don't think the concept of skills is bankrupt in general, or even in D&D. The system just needs a radical overhaul.
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Post by Previn »

I choose tussoc is an idiot, not because the skill system is great, but because his analysis of individual skills is severely lacking, or deeply flawed, more often than it's accurate.
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Re: Skills do nothing. Game design poison: nerdrage episode #1.

Post by DrPraetor »

My comments are in italics inside the spoiler, until I got tired of the exercise. I agree that about 80% of the skills are either useless or stupid (should just be class features), but for the 20% which aren't useless: Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Forgery, Gather Information, Handle Animal, Hide, Intimidate, Listen, Search, Sense Motive, Spot, Survival (I may have missed one) - you marshal very weak arguments to try and force them to fit your thesis.

General issues with your whole argument:
  • a +10 or +15 bonus to a skill is pretty easy to get, but bonuses much larger than that are harder. So any skill which turns awesome if you can hit a 30 is awesome to have 10 ranks in.
  • stealth is not nearly as impossible as you make out.
  • information is not nearly as useless as you make out.
  • I've never seen a DM who wouldn't let you have a baby dragon to train, because that's awesome. If you really have problems with this, I suggest growing tits.
That said - I agree that the skill system should go, and all of the useful skills should either become some form or another of Perception Save, or a class feature for whichever class is diplomatic (I nominate the Fighter) and so forth.
tussock wrote:
  • Appraise: You carry everything home and sell it for half market value. Knowing what things are worth has zero game impact. agreed
  • Balance: It's a surprise save vs a couple of low level spells, which should be Ref saves anyway. Otherwise, it's worth less than 10gp of rope, hook, and spikes. If the DM does give you something to "balance" on at a critical moment, it fucks your combat ability and separates you from the party, so you don't do it anyway. definitely
  • Bluff: It allows you one sneak attack, at the cost of two standard actions, or with a feat as one full round action. No one ever takes that deal. Otherwise you get to pretend to be something you're not, for a moment, if you also have disguise and forgery and the DM wants you to succeed. Because have you seen the DCs? If the DM likes what you said it's randomly -5 to 15, which is totally random for people with or without the skill. If the DM hates what you said it's 21 to 40, and you will always fail no matter what. Magic Tea Party is at least honest about it. Actually, no. A 10th level char can have 13 ranks of bluff and a ring of +15 bluffing, and hit 30s easily. This raises the other objection people sometimes have to skills, which is that high levels aren't completely useless.
  • Climb: A knotted rope off a hook is DC 0, and throwing a grapple is take-20 and so always works. Otherwise like balance, a rare surprise saving throw, but completely pointless and will kill you for being creative with it. Basically agree.
  • Concentration: Caster tax on skill points. Never fails past level 5, has a level 1 trap feat attached, may as well be a casterlevel check, only with DCs that work. Yeah.
  • Craft: Just, no. You never played the original Magic Candle, I take it? Sadistic DMs can make you repair your kit while traveling long distances.
  • Decipher Script: Literally does nothing. Maybe the DM will throw you a clue via this skill, but that's unlikely out here in the real world. You will find that you need this skill I^OI you have it.
  • Diplomacy: This skill wins D&D. As such, no one allows it to do anything, because no one wants to win D&D with a single skill check. That's not really your fundamental argument, though...
  • Disable Device: Hit it with your axe. I'm not even kidding. Disabling spells? Have you seen the DCs? The fact that to find those spells automatically sets them off? Your DM is going to expect you have this and is going to find some way to punish you for not using it. That said, like Concentration it's a class feature.
  • Disguise: Opposed by Spot, which monsters all have in spades. Your chances of doing anything useful with it after passing twenty critters is zero. Old stories about walking around Drow city in disguise work with MTP, but cannot work here. Again, it's trivially easy to get +40 or more in this, and a few skill ranks help.
  • Escape Artist: Like the DM isn't going to give you a way to escape anyway. That's a bit weak as an argument but I agree it's niche.
  • Forgery: You present your warrant to the dragon, he breathes on it. OK, in a town mission, by 6th or 7th level you can have all the documents you need to win D&D with. Again, no one wants to win D&D like that, and the DM will just add an opponent with Forgery to nail you anyway. Maybe if you never really use it? Forgery is niche but this is a weak argument that it's actually useless.
  • Gather Information: If you don't have this skill, you will still get the same information somehow, because you need to have it to finish the adventure. At best it's begging the DM to support your character concept better with Magic Tea Party. This is very play style dependent. If you play this way then anything you do other than talking into a dungeon and stabbing things is useless, so even divination spells are basically worthless.
  • Handle Animal: Skill tax on Druids and Rangers that everyone ignores. It's actually a move-action attack for low-level grunts and all spellcasters too, but no one does that either, mostly because animals are crazy expensive at low level and dead anyway at high level. You can train a nice mount if the DM gives you a year or five of downtime: as if. Actually, I've hardly ever seen a DM who was unwilling to let you train a baby dragon, because that's awesome. Still, should be a class feature.
  • Heal: This is actually made useless by spells. The most iconic spells in the game behind Fireball and Lightning Bolt. If we can imagine a game without healing magic, this skill is far too weak to play D&D with. Some vague use at very low levels against poison and disease, if anyone cared about poison and disease. Agreed.
  • Hide: Everything has massive Spot ranks, and as you have to make dozens of checks to get anywhere or do anything while hidden it fails. It's completely overwhelmed not by spells but by amazing game effects like doors, corners, barrels, small bushes, and tables. Furniture is better than this. By far. I'm not sure I agree with your reading of the rules. But it should be a class feature.
  • Intimidate: The normal use is to make someone hate you. The alternate use is to give up all your attacks to maybe give someone -2 to hit for one attack of theirs, which is otherwise known as Aid Another. Doing either of these things hurts your character. No, Intimidate makes enemies run away, or yield. If you think it "makes them hate you" you are willfully misreading the text.
  • Jump: It's a fancy way of saying people in heavy armour can't jump. Plate and Shield is like -13, so they can't even jump as far as they can step. If your Fighter puts all his skill points here, at Epic levels he will be able to jump across thirty foot gaps, unless he's wearing any armour. That does sort of work, it's just that nobody cares. 8' high? So short ladders are Epic now? I agree that the skill is poorly implemented.
  • Knowledge: Begging the DM to tell your character the stuff you already know. Should be a class feature, but if you think that knowing things is useless then you are simply playing a deficient game, even by the standards of a dungeon crawl.
  • Listen: All the monsters have this to kill your Move Silently skill. You can, eventually, listen at doors with it, but everything relevant will hear you first. You know that items of +10 to a skill are really cheap and stack with the +10 you get from having the skill, right?
  • Move Silently: Forget about it, they can still hear you. ditto
  • Open Lock: Break door with axe. DMs will punish you by having the contents of the chest shatter when you do that. Also you may need this for sneak-in-and-steal missions, which is such low-hanging fruit that DMs will offer them even if your characters are unable to carry them out.
  • Perform: Roll high enough and the DM is supposed to send Angels from the heavens to make babies with you. Really though, it's just a skill tax on Bards. Agreed
  • Profession: Again, no. Purely a flavor text thing
  • Ride: This is what stops 1st level characters riding the horse they can't afford to buy. At 2nd level everything automatically works. At higher levels it would have let you ride weaker animals in combat, only they've already died. Marginally useful for classes with level appropriate mounts who don't get a class feature that ignores these checks. So ... no one. Even people who can ignore the checks need Ride to max out their benefit from some of the other class features which give you a Ride-dependent bonus. But should just be a class feature
  • Search: takes two minutes per square and works without any ranks. Lets mid-level Rogues find the magic trap that already killed them. That's just stupid. Search actually works and there are a bunch of things that are nice to find which have high DCs.
You know why the 3.5 Jump spell doesn't work? Because the 3.0 version made someone feel small in the pants after they took the time to spend skill points on Jump. Clearly, the game would be better for everyone if the system did not exist, because we could have one slightly less useless first level spell, while freeing up 26 pages for something usable, like a cheaper book.
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Post by Username17 »

I also chose the Tussoc is an idiot response. His thesis is "skills don't do anything", but then even he admits that Diplomacy wins D&D. Even having already basically given away his thesis, he still holds up skills like Disable Device and says that you can't disable spells because the DCs are too high. And that's true... at first level. Disabling an alarm is DC 26, which I think we'll all agree is something that our resident 1st level rogue is not going to succeed at with his +3 Int Bonus and 4 ranks of Disable Device he needs a natural 19. That is not something you can depend upon.

But flash forward to tenth level when that same Rogue picks up Skill Mastery and automatically takes 10 on the die roll. He also has 13 ranks, a +4 Int Bonus, masterwork thieve's tools (+2), and a skill item (+5). That's a +24 modifier, meaning that he automatically succeeds at a DC of 34 or less. As it happens, the maximum DC of the skill is also 34 because the DC of disabling magic is 25 + spell level (not caster level). In the 9 levels that the Rogue has picked up 17 points of bonuses and always take-10, the average DC of the skill has only gone up 4, and the theoretical maximum he will ever have to deal with is still only 8 higher than the normal challenge from nine levels ago.

Disable Device, like Bluff and Diplomacy several other examples on the list, actually does provide the equivalent of quite decent spell effects when it works and has its DC scale so slowly that it turns into an at-will source of never-fail badassery by mid levels. Far from being useless, these skills actually become so useful that they are a quite significant part of how the game breaks down in the double-digit levels. How are you supposed to do dungeon crawling stupidity when traps that strain the Rogue's abilities do not and cannot exist at 12th level?

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Post by erik »

However, it should be noted that since everyone who answered option 3 almost certainly liked skills in D&D before they knew tussock was an idiot, thus making them liaaaaaaars.
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Post by ishy »

I chose Tussock is an idiot, because it made all the bars have an equal height at the time.
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Post by Sashi »

I chose tussock is an idiot because he is seriously ranting that the system in dnd which has the most potential for player agency should be discarded because the specific implementations we've seen have been poorly designed.
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Post by hogarth »

erik wrote:However, it should be noted that since everyone who answered option 3 almost certainly liked skills in D&D before they knew tussock was an idiot, thus making them liaaaaaaars.
Out of the four listed options, it was the one that most applied. By far.
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

I voted tussock is an idiot. I won't argue that a lot of the skills in D&D are too salami-sliced to be of any use or are too easily obviated by spells but still, is it really THAT hard to think of a game where:
Appraise
Bluff (this is super-useful in regular D&D)
Concentration
Craft
Disable Device (this is super-useful in regular D&D)
Disguise
Forgery
Gather Information (this is super-useful in regular D&D even if you have divination spells and bardic lore)
Handle Animal
Heal
Hide/Move Silently (should be stealth, should be useful in D&D)
Knowledge (this is super-useful in regular D&D)
Intimidate
Profession
Search
Sense Motive
Sleight of Hand
Survival
Tumble
or UMD (this in fact borders on brokenly good)

is amazingly good? If you run your game as a dungeon crawler where the DM is obligated to lead you by the nose from plot hook to plot hook, sure, most of those sills are useless. But in a game like Earthdawn or Dragonborn/Alchemical Exalted or Star Wars those skills -- in concept at least -- would be extremely useful if game designers and DMs just put a little fucking THOUGHT into their adventure writing.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Josh_Kablack
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Post by Josh_Kablack »

erik wrote:I want a stealth minigame (stealth vs. awareness)
Sure.
I want a pursuit minigame (mobility vs. mobility)
It is amazing how few RPGs have any sort of usuable chase-scene mechanics at all. However, I think "mobility" vs "obstacle placement" is theoretically more interesting than just "mobility vs mobility"
I want characters to feel they are special because they have particular skills which appear useful (even if ultimately the plot *will* move on regardless)
Assuming that sort of linear plot, it's entirely workable if winning the skill minigame yields the more glamorous path to the next objective, but failing the skill minigame still gets the PCs to the next objective. IE: Win the awareness vs stealth minigame and you foil the assassin and get the clue from him. Lose the awareness minigame and the NPC gets assassinated leaving you to get the clue from the taunting letter the mastermind sends you.
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Post by ishy »

Lago PARANOIA wrote:(...) is it really THAT hard to think of a game where:
Appraise
Heal

is amazingly good?
Yes. I can't think of a single interesting thing to use appraise for, unless you do it as part of a profession. How often do you find that estimating what non-magical stuff is worth is worth it?

Heal can be good at low levels, but can't see any real use for it after level 3 either. Unless you add things beyond what is in the phb.
Gary Gygax wrote:The player’s path to role-playing mastery begins with a thorough understanding of the rules of the game
Bigode wrote:I wouldn't normally make that blanket of a suggestion, but you seem to deserve it: scroll through the entire forum, read anything that looks interesting in term of design experience, then come back.
Lago PARANOIA
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

ishy wrote:Yes. I can't think of a single interesting thing to use appraise for, unless you do it as part of a profession. How often do you find that estimating what non-magical stuff is worth is worth it?
D&D is loaded to the gills with magical items and artifacts and fixtures and whatever the fuck. While the appraise skill is shitty in that it tells you the least important thing about a magical fountain in the middle of a hallway AND is competing against effects like identify, there's absolutely no reason why it necessarily needs to be bottom tier in the way use rope is. If appraise at least told you why something is worth 1300 gp it'd be something, but it doesn't. Right now appraise needs to be able to break down the obvious base materials, tell you where something is from if applicable (why, this dried fungal armoire is obviously from drow workshops!), and a rough idea as to what it does. If you folded Appraise into Craft or Knowledge, though, I'd understand -- but I do think that a skill whose sole purpose is 'get a rough idea as to what this weird new thing does and how it fits in with other things' has enough potential use in a game like D&D that it should be its own separate skill.

As for Heal, this isn't actually 3.5E's thing but rather a rare kernel of a good idea in 4E D&D; for weird afflictions or to turbocharge the cures to weird effects you need the Heal skill. Of course it's easier to cure death in 4E D&D (3E D&D, too, but it's especially galling here) than most weirdass physiological and psychological compulsions, so who knows.
Last edited by Lago PARANOIA on Thu May 31, 2012 7:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by ishy »

Lago PARANOIA wrote:
ishy wrote:Yes. I can't think of a single interesting thing to use appraise for, unless you do it as part of a profession. How often do you find that estimating what non-magical stuff is worth is worth it?
D&D is loaded to the gills with magical items and artifacts and fixtures and whatever the fuck. While the appraise skill is shitty in that it tells you the least important thing about a magical fountain(...)
No fuck you.
I was obviously talking about 3.5 where appraise doesn't work on magical items. I even pointed that out in my post
Gary Gygax wrote:The player’s path to role-playing mastery begins with a thorough understanding of the rules of the game
Bigode wrote:I wouldn't normally make that blanket of a suggestion, but you seem to deserve it: scroll through the entire forum, read anything that looks interesting in term of design experience, then come back.
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Post by John Magnum »

Yeah, it's a DC 50 appraise check just to find out that an item has a magic aura.
-JM
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Post by erik »

I've been in games where we were too poor to afford paying for Identify for the few magical items that we ever got. So Appraise (used by our jewel thieving rogue) did see some use at least until someone would either bring in their Magic Domain Cleric, or cohort of the same. Now, it should be said that even still, Appraise only seemed to screw us in that we never got extra gold for things we over-valued while we were sure to get screwed on the things we under-valued, but without Appraise we would have gotten even less. Yeah, I mostly played Dungeons & Beggars. I suppose we did kill a few dragons over the years, but never saw a dragon horde. Evar.


On pursuit with Mobility vs. Mobility/ Mobility vs. Obstacles...

Doesn't the latter still come down to both contesting Mobility as they are both rolling against the same Obstacle DCs? Granted DCs may be a bit different depending upon whether they use a Strength vs. Dexterity approach to Mobility in a chase, but in the grand scheme you're still comparing Mobility checks.


[in the interest of disclosure, I chose 'Tussock is an idiot' on account of his poll not having any valid answers to the question asked]
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