I'm curious as to how they work in actual play. The Samurai and Barbarian are pretty straightforward, but it's the Fighterwith his interrupts and swift action rerolls that are especially intriguing to me.
Were they interesting to use? Fun?
Is there interesting decision making with using the Fighter's improved delay?
So, who has actually used a RoW Fighter, Samurai, Barb, etc.
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OgreBattle
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So, who has actually used a RoW Fighter, Samurai, Barb, etc.
Last edited by OgreBattle on Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Let's see.
The fighter is pretty much a walking bag of kill-you tricks.
Samurai and barbarian are pretty straight forward death. The Samurai more-so than the Barbarian. His Kiai will fuck anything over hardcore. I've seen the Barbarian played in a playtest that I ran. But I haven't seen anything that was used in a longterm game. But the Fighter and the samurai, I have seen and those are killer.
A high-level Joker is also fucking mean when you start stacking poisons and spells. BUt that's also a giant hindrance to combat because it requires roll after roll by the dm just for a single attack.
The fighter is pretty much a walking bag of kill-you tricks.
Samurai and barbarian are pretty straight forward death. The Samurai more-so than the Barbarian. His Kiai will fuck anything over hardcore. I've seen the Barbarian played in a playtest that I ran. But I haven't seen anything that was used in a longterm game. But the Fighter and the samurai, I have seen and those are killer.
A high-level Joker is also fucking mean when you start stacking poisons and spells. BUt that's also a giant hindrance to combat because it requires roll after roll by the dm just for a single attack.
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Darth Rabbitt
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The Barbarian is basically an actually functioning tank (being pretty much immune to anything requiring a save, and ability damage and death effects and crits and other shit that bypasses saves) moreso than the Knight is from my experience (since the Barbarian can actually kill things pretty hard, just not as hard as a Tome Fighter or Tome Samurai.)
From my experience Assassin kind of sucks since its Death Attack takes up a round before it can actually do any sort of damage, and its spell progression, while pretty good, can't be used while it's studying; against weak opponents combat will probably be over before the Assassin can do anything, although it's OK against BBEGs that will last more than a round or two.
Thief Acrobat is also rather weak, since it's basically a Rogue that gets worse Sneak Attack in exchange for what are mostly flavor abilities.
Jester (with poisoned oversized exotic weapons or flasks, sneak attack, and spell cheese) and Monk (with Insightful Strike, anything else is optional) are both really good though at killing things (about on par with the Barbarian, although with worse defenses.)
True Fiend and Fiendish Brute are rather weaksauce (True Fiend is OK at a number of things, although not good at any of them, and gets good defenses but not much else, while the Fiendish Brute is a fighting class with poor Base Attack Bonus) although the Conduit is pretty good if you choose the right Spheres.
Anyone who takes more than one [Undead Creation] feat bogs the game down into near-unplayability, if not breaking it outright, due to all of the damn Undead Pokemon they have, each as good as a Cohort.
Prestige classes are all pretty good in all of the Tomes.
That's my experience with Tome shit.
From my experience Assassin kind of sucks since its Death Attack takes up a round before it can actually do any sort of damage, and its spell progression, while pretty good, can't be used while it's studying; against weak opponents combat will probably be over before the Assassin can do anything, although it's OK against BBEGs that will last more than a round or two.
Thief Acrobat is also rather weak, since it's basically a Rogue that gets worse Sneak Attack in exchange for what are mostly flavor abilities.
Jester (with poisoned oversized exotic weapons or flasks, sneak attack, and spell cheese) and Monk (with Insightful Strike, anything else is optional) are both really good though at killing things (about on par with the Barbarian, although with worse defenses.)
True Fiend and Fiendish Brute are rather weaksauce (True Fiend is OK at a number of things, although not good at any of them, and gets good defenses but not much else, while the Fiendish Brute is a fighting class with poor Base Attack Bonus) although the Conduit is pretty good if you choose the right Spheres.
Anyone who takes more than one [Undead Creation] feat bogs the game down into near-unplayability, if not breaking it outright, due to all of the damn Undead Pokemon they have, each as good as a Cohort.
Prestige classes are all pretty good in all of the Tomes.
That's my experience with Tome shit.
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CatharzGodfoot
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I've DMed a game that featured a samurai PC that chose to go the archery route. There were also low-level barbarians and fighters appearing as enemies.
The samurai absolutely tore shit up. The first signs of power appeared at 3rd level with Kiai. At that level, an auto-crit with point blank shot is instagib. The samurai could reliably turn a level-appropriate encounter with a single foe into a 1 round affair, and with 3 to 4 encounters per day there was little need to conserve those criticals.
Terrible Blows rendered a number of 'difficult' encounters trivial. A high-DR enemy would explode into a fine mist of red after 1 or 2 Kiai. Being able to shoot through cover was a nice side-benefit. At one point the samurai used this to make Swiss cheese out of the walls that a group of shadows were hiding in.
Iaijutsu gave the samurai an extra attack per round, because the samurai tended to get the Edge on everyone (might have burned a feat on Weapon Finesse to do this).
The fighter and barbarian NPCs were deadly chargers at low levels, and could have resulted in TPKs. My suggestion is to build fighter and barbarian NPCs to be defensive at low levels, because otherwise it will probably mean 1 dead PC per round.
The samurai absolutely tore shit up. The first signs of power appeared at 3rd level with Kiai. At that level, an auto-crit with point blank shot is instagib. The samurai could reliably turn a level-appropriate encounter with a single foe into a 1 round affair, and with 3 to 4 encounters per day there was little need to conserve those criticals.
Terrible Blows rendered a number of 'difficult' encounters trivial. A high-DR enemy would explode into a fine mist of red after 1 or 2 Kiai. Being able to shoot through cover was a nice side-benefit. At one point the samurai used this to make Swiss cheese out of the walls that a group of shadows were hiding in.
Iaijutsu gave the samurai an extra attack per round, because the samurai tended to get the Edge on everyone (might have burned a feat on Weapon Finesse to do this).
The fighter and barbarian NPCs were deadly chargers at low levels, and could have resulted in TPKs. My suggestion is to build fighter and barbarian NPCs to be defensive at low levels, because otherwise it will probably mean 1 dead PC per round.
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Mount Flamethrower on rear
Drive in reverse
Win Game.
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Fiendish Brute sets up a fuck-ton of builds, though. Just four levels of Fiendish Brute taken at the right times can get you up to Huge Size--and the Str score increases more than offset the BAB hit.
Or, to put it another way, between the feats and the ability score increases, the Fiendish Brute gets access to enough weird tricks and shenanigans that they can be interesting to play (although they still suffer from benefitting most from hyper-focusing. Make a Huge-Sized Constricting Breath-Stealing grapple machine? Why, thank you, I think I will!), and a few levels of Fiendish Brute can help all kinds of monster character concepts happen.
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I agree--Barbarian is a tank complete with the REALLY big guns.
Monk hasn't ever failed to be enjoyed by whoever's playing it.
Though one guy in a game got his nose in a sling because he hadn't read the Monk over before we started the game ("they don't interest me") and then tried to claim "Monks don't have full BAB! And don't get named moves like that!"
And Samurai requires a gentleman's agreement. Make them stick to a x3 crit melee weapon if you can by any means--custom-make something if you have to.
Or, to put it another way, between the feats and the ability score increases, the Fiendish Brute gets access to enough weird tricks and shenanigans that they can be interesting to play (although they still suffer from benefitting most from hyper-focusing. Make a Huge-Sized Constricting Breath-Stealing grapple machine? Why, thank you, I think I will!), and a few levels of Fiendish Brute can help all kinds of monster character concepts happen.
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I agree--Barbarian is a tank complete with the REALLY big guns.
Monk hasn't ever failed to be enjoyed by whoever's playing it.
Though one guy in a game got his nose in a sling because he hadn't read the Monk over before we started the game ("they don't interest me") and then tried to claim "Monks don't have full BAB! And don't get named moves like that!"
And Samurai requires a gentleman's agreement. Make them stick to a x3 crit melee weapon if you can by any means--custom-make something if you have to.
Last edited by Maxus on Wed Jul 04, 2012 3:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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CatharzGodfoot
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That all said, I was probably misinterpreting the rules and should not have allowed Iaijutsu to apply to ranged attacks until 11th level (and then only within 60').
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Mount Flamethrower on rear
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Mount Flamethrower on rear
Drive in reverse
Win Game.
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angelfromanotherpin
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I MC'd a Tome Fighter and Soldier from 1st to 6th. The Fighter began as a moderate lump of decent math and blossomed into a battlefield-clearing cuisinart who used Problem Solving to tailor his defenses. The Soldier began as a scout and ended up as a layered-defense debuffer who specialized in making single large enemies cry.
Both were very strong.
Both were very strong.
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Josh_Kablack
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I've been a player in a game where there was a Tome Samurai. They basically hit things hard and have a couple high-damage combos. A functional class, but not terribly versatile. If you have more than one in the party they feel redundant.
I've been a player in a game and MC'ed another where there was a player as both Thief Acrobat and Assassin.
Thief Acrobat is maybe on par with a middle of the pack PHB class, and complete ass when other Tome Classes are available. I already did a revision. If that's too extreme, at least tweak it too full BAB , and switch the sneak attack progression to +1d6 sneak attack at every even level - the one level delay will keep that far enough behind rogue already.
Assassin is a little trickier to evaluate. It's not a top-tier tome class, and it doesn't quite function as the higher-damage, lower skill, more fragile rogue people at first think it is -- the action economy actually makes Death Attack only comparable to no-shenanigan Sneak Attack. On the other hand, Death Attack is better when the party can ambush enemies, and the stealth and spell list Gives them a better than expected toolbox to just win encounters. It's all in all fair for most games, unless like everyone else is hyper-optimizing within Tome Classes, in which case it needs a way to set up or execute Death Attack faster (which can sometimes be done by just having allies of the right classes in the party)
I've also MC'd a game with a straight Tome Monk, and played a multiclassed Tome Monk in a game. That class is made of straight up awesome. It's strong without being overpowering. It's full of interesting combos with other classes and with Tome Feats. Those combos happen in ways that it's unlikely for any two Tome Monks in the same party to have the same set, so it manages to be highly playable, effective and entertaining.
I've used Tome BBNs and Jesters and antogonist NPCs. The BBN is good for an enemy that will last a few rounds, the Jester has more tricks than they will live to use against a PC party.
I've been a player in a game and MC'ed another where there was a player as both Thief Acrobat and Assassin.
Thief Acrobat is maybe on par with a middle of the pack PHB class, and complete ass when other Tome Classes are available. I already did a revision. If that's too extreme, at least tweak it too full BAB , and switch the sneak attack progression to +1d6 sneak attack at every even level - the one level delay will keep that far enough behind rogue already.
Assassin is a little trickier to evaluate. It's not a top-tier tome class, and it doesn't quite function as the higher-damage, lower skill, more fragile rogue people at first think it is -- the action economy actually makes Death Attack only comparable to no-shenanigan Sneak Attack. On the other hand, Death Attack is better when the party can ambush enemies, and the stealth and spell list Gives them a better than expected toolbox to just win encounters. It's all in all fair for most games, unless like everyone else is hyper-optimizing within Tome Classes, in which case it needs a way to set up or execute Death Attack faster (which can sometimes be done by just having allies of the right classes in the party)
I've also MC'd a game with a straight Tome Monk, and played a multiclassed Tome Monk in a game. That class is made of straight up awesome. It's strong without being overpowering. It's full of interesting combos with other classes and with Tome Feats. Those combos happen in ways that it's unlikely for any two Tome Monks in the same party to have the same set, so it manages to be highly playable, effective and entertaining.
I've used Tome BBNs and Jesters and antogonist NPCs. The BBN is good for an enemy that will last a few rounds, the Jester has more tricks than they will live to use against a PC party.
Last edited by Josh_Kablack on Thu Jul 12, 2012 4:01 am, edited 4 times in total.
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I've played and have watched someone else play a Samurai. We both enjoyed it, but the class is undeniably kind of a one-trick pony.
The same player who used the Samurai earlier tried a Knight, and also enjoyed it.
I've had a couple of people do Monks, and they've all really enjoyed the class.
Another player tried an Assassin, and did not enjoy it, probably because the party overall was not specced for stealth, and he lacked the system mastery required to properly play an Assassin. I let him switch to a slightly nerf'd Ninja, and everything was better. But, in a more stealth-focused party, I had another player, whose system was, if anything worse than the first player's, try an Assassin, and he really enjoyed it.
I've never seen a Fighter played. I honestly think that the name might be so generic as to generally discourage people from looking at it closely. But, in all of these situations, with parties full of mix'd Tome Classes, the only times I've had intraparty balance issues serious enough to warrant MC intervention was when the class' abilities did not coherently mesh with the player's style. But I have never had a group especially talented at optimization.
The same player who used the Samurai earlier tried a Knight, and also enjoyed it.
I've had a couple of people do Monks, and they've all really enjoyed the class.
Another player tried an Assassin, and did not enjoy it, probably because the party overall was not specced for stealth, and he lacked the system mastery required to properly play an Assassin. I let him switch to a slightly nerf'd Ninja, and everything was better. But, in a more stealth-focused party, I had another player, whose system was, if anything worse than the first player's, try an Assassin, and he really enjoyed it.
I've never seen a Fighter played. I honestly think that the name might be so generic as to generally discourage people from looking at it closely. But, in all of these situations, with parties full of mix'd Tome Classes, the only times I've had intraparty balance issues serious enough to warrant MC intervention was when the class' abilities did not coherently mesh with the player's style. But I have never had a group especially talented at optimization.
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Midnight_v
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I've dm'ed quite a few of them mostly the warrior classes. I mean I've had people roll up a firemage (2) but I've had no one say "Let me try this snowscaper" so you know.
So, I've had experience running mostly the characters you're specifically talking about primarily when utilizing tome material.
One of the more signifigant things that I've learned about these classes is that they're capable of killing a opponent of the same cr, with little stress. I had ran a tome samurai and a tome barbarian, play in the red hand of doom, along with a wizard and a cloistered cleric. I can say that they butchered lots of challenges that were really "Caster only" but that was a GOOD THING, they even killed the 8headed hydra in the black fens.
Red Hand of Doom.
The classes I've played myself are a 5th-8th level fighter, a 3rd-6th level assassin, and a true fiend of varying levels. When I played the fighter I played alongside a tome monk, and at the time I felt like I was underpowered compared to the monk. I was wrong, but at level 5 I found that needed a few levels to match him, he started doing lots of ability damage exclusively pretty quick. I aslo felt like he had MUCH more horizontal power than me again I was wrong I just had to use my active assault better when the opportunites came up.
The assassin I played in a solo game and after runing it I tried to play the same game as a True Fiend. The rule of these games was basically "you must be "this" stealthy to play, the assassin excels in the role its supposed to do. I extrapoplate that if allowed to do the job of assassinating people they'd be pretty damed good at allowing the party to actually get suprise rounds frequently. Even if its just using minor illusions to make walls for the party to hide behind etc.
The true fiend I wans't really happy with, but the last level I got fiendish invisibility (breath) and things worked somewhat better, harmless form was somewhat underwhelming though, I just played it wrong.
I realize I forgot that I'd ran a knight and he would have gotten destroyed except he happend to have a silver sword, by passing the dr/ of the challenge. Lastly I had a mounted fire-mage pwn quite a bit via skirmishing.
I played a 1 shot with a 14 level fighter, in a party with a tome Kantian pally, and a couple of fullcasters, 1 was a 7fold veil, the other slips my mind. We hacked shit up pretty hardcore, but it didn't reveal the depts of the class as it was a short session. The pally player complained that he didn't like the "Smite 1d6 vs evil" cause he thought it was too generic a mechanic in that form etc.
Thats... all I can think of right this sec.
So, I've had experience running mostly the characters you're specifically talking about primarily when utilizing tome material.
One of the more signifigant things that I've learned about these classes is that they're capable of killing a opponent of the same cr, with little stress. I had ran a tome samurai and a tome barbarian, play in the red hand of doom, along with a wizard and a cloistered cleric. I can say that they butchered lots of challenges that were really "Caster only" but that was a GOOD THING, they even killed the 8headed hydra in the black fens.
Red Hand of Doom.
The most interesting thing was the use of "Commune" by the samurai, the player was really happy about the ability to do things out of combat and he supplemented that w/some skill feats, and really overall hammed it up a bit. The Barbarian threw down lots of damage, but in the end we didn't get to a point where he was doing something anything tremendously different from the late season Pounce barbarians, it just didn't take a lot of investment to get the player to NOT suck at saves and could take feats that made her able to toe to toe w/monsters playing the same game. Once whirlwind attack got involved and they could spread the attacks out amongst the enemies, even aoe mook killing started to look decent for the melees. I admit though that is isn't generally speaking a difficult module, but it IS a difficult dungeon for melee's. Which the tome classes made signifigantly easier.
The classes I've played myself are a 5th-8th level fighter, a 3rd-6th level assassin, and a true fiend of varying levels. When I played the fighter I played alongside a tome monk, and at the time I felt like I was underpowered compared to the monk. I was wrong, but at level 5 I found that needed a few levels to match him, he started doing lots of ability damage exclusively pretty quick. I aslo felt like he had MUCH more horizontal power than me again I was wrong I just had to use my active assault better when the opportunites came up.
The assassin I played in a solo game and after runing it I tried to play the same game as a True Fiend. The rule of these games was basically "you must be "this" stealthy to play, the assassin excels in the role its supposed to do. I extrapoplate that if allowed to do the job of assassinating people they'd be pretty damed good at allowing the party to actually get suprise rounds frequently. Even if its just using minor illusions to make walls for the party to hide behind etc.
The true fiend I wans't really happy with, but the last level I got fiendish invisibility (breath) and things worked somewhat better, harmless form was somewhat underwhelming though, I just played it wrong.
I realize I forgot that I'd ran a knight and he would have gotten destroyed except he happend to have a silver sword, by passing the dr/ of the challenge. Lastly I had a mounted fire-mage pwn quite a bit via skirmishing.
I played a 1 shot with a 14 level fighter, in a party with a tome Kantian pally, and a couple of fullcasters, 1 was a 7fold veil, the other slips my mind. We hacked shit up pretty hardcore, but it didn't reveal the depts of the class as it was a short session. The pally player complained that he didn't like the "Smite 1d6 vs evil" cause he thought it was too generic a mechanic in that form etc.
Thats... all I can think of right this sec.
Last edited by Midnight_v on Wed Jul 04, 2012 7:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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I'm running a full Tome campaign of Rise of the Runelords using Kaelik's Tome errata and the latest version of the complete Tomes.
The party just hit 11th level, and they include a Samurai 7/Tome Fighter 2/Knight 1, a Barbarian 10/Tome Fighter 1, a Druid 9/Tome Monk 1/Defiler of Temples 1, and a Wizard 2/Cleric 2/Mystic Theurge 7. So far I've found that I've had to increase the opposition listed in the module quite severely to pose a fair challenge to the party, which I expected since everyone is now Wizard level. Early on this was just increasing the number of mooks, but since then I've been gutting whole encounters or rebuilding NPC's with Tome levels to keep up.
The Tome melee characters are effective combatants in most situations. They have high enough saves, good enough abilities and enough bonuses that they can stand up to pretty much any level appropriate opposition without beaking a sweat. Their main weaknesses are mobility and fuck you spells - Forcecage and the like. The Theurge has been using his legion of spells to good effect - dropping a Flight and Freedom of Movement on the Samurai means that pretty much any enemy is dead in one round. It's nice that this encourages the party to work together, however I do get the feeling that characters tested using the Same Game Test can voltron together to perform much better than their individual abilities would suggest.
Regarding the specific abilities, I would say that Kiai strike with a x4 weapon renders a lot of opponents into 1 hit wonders without requiring the full action or straight line of movement of an uber-charger. We have talked about changing Kiai Strike to simply deal double damage, removing the incentive to pick weird metagame options for a Samurai Ancestral weapon (Picks? really?). Tome Barbarians, using the DR stacking rules from the Tomes, can also reach levels of DR that render most enemies unable to hurt them. I get the feeling that using improved classes, with improved feats, and improved items may be too much of a boost all together to the melee classes to keep the challenge at the right level. Looking at the feats, Whirlwind + Hordebreaker mean that a comical amount of lower level enemies can be cleared in one round. Adding a group of mooks to bulk out a challenge really ran out of steam about level 6.
The biggest weakness of Tome classes is that warriors still have very few noncombat ablities that matter at high levels. A Samurai can kill a Balor with a full attack and a Barbarian can tank a Cornugon, but when it comes to solving problems they get only the barest of options. The Samurai Commune & speak with dead are nice, but they are only a token gesture. In summary I would say the players are having fun, and love finding new ways to synergise their abilities, but for my next campaign I think i will reign in a few of the crazier options as they do go a little far. However I would rather start from this base and tweak down than the Core classes, so I definitely think Frank & K took things in the right direction.
The party just hit 11th level, and they include a Samurai 7/Tome Fighter 2/Knight 1, a Barbarian 10/Tome Fighter 1, a Druid 9/Tome Monk 1/Defiler of Temples 1, and a Wizard 2/Cleric 2/Mystic Theurge 7. So far I've found that I've had to increase the opposition listed in the module quite severely to pose a fair challenge to the party, which I expected since everyone is now Wizard level. Early on this was just increasing the number of mooks, but since then I've been gutting whole encounters or rebuilding NPC's with Tome levels to keep up.
The Tome melee characters are effective combatants in most situations. They have high enough saves, good enough abilities and enough bonuses that they can stand up to pretty much any level appropriate opposition without beaking a sweat. Their main weaknesses are mobility and fuck you spells - Forcecage and the like. The Theurge has been using his legion of spells to good effect - dropping a Flight and Freedom of Movement on the Samurai means that pretty much any enemy is dead in one round. It's nice that this encourages the party to work together, however I do get the feeling that characters tested using the Same Game Test can voltron together to perform much better than their individual abilities would suggest.
Regarding the specific abilities, I would say that Kiai strike with a x4 weapon renders a lot of opponents into 1 hit wonders without requiring the full action or straight line of movement of an uber-charger. We have talked about changing Kiai Strike to simply deal double damage, removing the incentive to pick weird metagame options for a Samurai Ancestral weapon (Picks? really?). Tome Barbarians, using the DR stacking rules from the Tomes, can also reach levels of DR that render most enemies unable to hurt them. I get the feeling that using improved classes, with improved feats, and improved items may be too much of a boost all together to the melee classes to keep the challenge at the right level. Looking at the feats, Whirlwind + Hordebreaker mean that a comical amount of lower level enemies can be cleared in one round. Adding a group of mooks to bulk out a challenge really ran out of steam about level 6.
The biggest weakness of Tome classes is that warriors still have very few noncombat ablities that matter at high levels. A Samurai can kill a Balor with a full attack and a Barbarian can tank a Cornugon, but when it comes to solving problems they get only the barest of options. The Samurai Commune & speak with dead are nice, but they are only a token gesture. In summary I would say the players are having fun, and love finding new ways to synergise their abilities, but for my next campaign I think i will reign in a few of the crazier options as they do go a little far. However I would rather start from this base and tweak down than the Core classes, so I definitely think Frank & K took things in the right direction.
Simplified Tome Armor.
Tome item system and expanded Wish Economy rules.
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Tome item system and expanded Wish Economy rules.
Try our fantasy card game Clash of Nations! Available via Print on Demand.
“Those Who Can Make You Believe Absurdities, Can Make You Commit Atrocities” - Voltaire
A slightly more interesting variant is to say that, for the purposes of Kiai, an increased critical range is equivalent to a higher critical multiplier. So 19-20/x2 weapons, when used with Kiai!, would actually deal x3 damage.Red_Rob wrote: We have talked about changing Kiai Strike to simply deal double damage, removing the incentive to pick weird metagame options for a Samurai Ancestral weapon (Picks? really?).
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NineInchNall
- Duke
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While I haven't used them personally, I've been the DM for quite a few Frank&K / Tome PCs.
Assassin, levels 1-3) The Assy worked rather well, what with hiding and poison and whatnot. Possibly could have used more oomph out of the gate, but the RoW combat feats made up for that.
Barbarian, levels 1-5) The Barb worked out quite well once the player got the hang of choosing when to rage and when not to. Very survivable and had a useful skill set.
Fighter, levels 1-6) The player absolutely loved the class. From the increased carrying capacity to the skills to the shifting feat to the extra 5' step, the Fighter was entertaining and effective. As a bonus, at no point did he overshadow any of the other players' characters.
Fire Mage, levels 1-5) Another example of a very entertaining character, and one that everyone in the party was sad to see die. Every ability came in handy at some point, and none was overpowering.
Jester, levels 2-4) The "wield any weapon" thing was played for laughs more times than I can count, including a moment when it was asked whether the gnome cleric counted as a holy weapon for bypassing DR.
Knight, levels 3-6) The defensive boosts were welcome in the scary-monster adventure I was running. The player didn't get much use out of designate opponent, because things tended to die really quickly. However, it did make a difference in a couple boss fights, which was pretty cool.
None of the classes' balance was particularly out of whack, although some did suffer slightly due to the relative inexperience of their players. The Jester player, for instance, had a hard time figuring out how to use spells that weren't of the damaging sort. Overall, though, the classes were fun and capable.
Assassin, levels 1-3) The Assy worked rather well, what with hiding and poison and whatnot. Possibly could have used more oomph out of the gate, but the RoW combat feats made up for that.
Barbarian, levels 1-5) The Barb worked out quite well once the player got the hang of choosing when to rage and when not to. Very survivable and had a useful skill set.
Fighter, levels 1-6) The player absolutely loved the class. From the increased carrying capacity to the skills to the shifting feat to the extra 5' step, the Fighter was entertaining and effective. As a bonus, at no point did he overshadow any of the other players' characters.
Fire Mage, levels 1-5) Another example of a very entertaining character, and one that everyone in the party was sad to see die. Every ability came in handy at some point, and none was overpowering.
Jester, levels 2-4) The "wield any weapon" thing was played for laughs more times than I can count, including a moment when it was asked whether the gnome cleric counted as a holy weapon for bypassing DR.
Knight, levels 3-6) The defensive boosts were welcome in the scary-monster adventure I was running. The player didn't get much use out of designate opponent, because things tended to die really quickly. However, it did make a difference in a couple boss fights, which was pretty cool.
None of the classes' balance was particularly out of whack, although some did suffer slightly due to the relative inexperience of their players. The Jester player, for instance, had a hard time figuring out how to use spells that weren't of the damaging sort. Overall, though, the classes were fun and capable.
Current pet peeves:
Misuse of "per se". It means "[in] itself", not "precisely". Learn English.
Malformed singular possessives. It's almost always supposed to be 's.
Misuse of "per se". It means "[in] itself", not "precisely". Learn English.
Malformed singular possessives. It's almost always supposed to be 's.
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Dominicius
- Knight
- Posts: 491
- Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 8:28 pm
I've had a barbarian in my game. He cleared mooks like nobody's business but had trouble against the bosses.
For the samurai I already suggested a quick fix some time ago. Basically, forcing a crit with an x3 weapon should cost you 2 Kiai! charges, an x4 weapon for 3 Kiai! charges and so on. This pretty much solves the issue for most of the class as it refocuses the character depending on what kind of weapon he uses, the scythe guy is there to kill bosses and other high priority targets while the sword guy can easily stab a lot of mooks without running out of steam.
For the samurai I already suggested a quick fix some time ago. Basically, forcing a crit with an x3 weapon should cost you 2 Kiai! charges, an x4 weapon for 3 Kiai! charges and so on. This pretty much solves the issue for most of the class as it refocuses the character depending on what kind of weapon he uses, the scythe guy is there to kill bosses and other high priority targets while the sword guy can easily stab a lot of mooks without running out of steam.
Last edited by Dominicius on Thu Jul 05, 2012 12:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
Did he?NineInchNall wrote: Jester, levels 2-4) The "wield any weapon" thing was played for laughs more times than I can count, including a moment when it was asked whether the gnome cleric counted as a holy weapon for bypassing DR.
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.
--The horror of Mario
Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
--The horror of Mario
Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
Tome Samurai was a lot of fun albeit, as others have mentioned, extremely one note. You're not at any real risk of running out of Kiai's unless your GM regularly supplies the party with a good reason to fight a large number of encounters within a single session, and a single Kiai with a Scythe (2d4*4) is going to murder anything with even tiny amounts of optimization. I never got a chance to slap on Insightful Strikes or whatever that feat is called, but it raises things up to 2d4*7 at level 11, which is nice since that's the level that you need to be able to kill things in one hit just to keep up with caster SoDs.
Hobbes was fun to play. Repetitious, but fun.
Hobbes was fun to play. Repetitious, but fun.
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OgreBattle
- King
- Posts: 6820
- Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2011 9:33 am
What advice do you have for effective use of Active Assault? I find it intriguing but don't know much about what kind of difference it'd make. Use it to block off enemies? Force them to provoke OA? Avoid attacks?Midnight_v wrote: I just had to use my active assault better when the opportunites came up.
Was Combat Focus mainly used to land accurate attacks or what? I guess it would also be handy to leave for a vital save.
Any particularly memorable combos? Yeah, the Tome Monk seems the most fun to build and play, at a glance at least.Josh_Kablack wrote: I've also MC'd a game with a straight Tome Monk, and played a multiclassed Tome Monk in a game. That class is made of straight up awesome. It's strong without being overpowering. It's full of interesting combos with other classes and with Tome Feats. Those combos happen in ways that it's unlikely for any two Tome Monks in the same party to have the same set, so it manages to be highly playable, effective and entertaining.
For combat focus, you can gain it at the end of your first round, and then have it when it's not your turn (in case you need to make a save), then when it is your 2nd turn you use it on whatever if you haven't already, and gain it back at the end of the second round. That way you're always ready to use it defensively but you can still attack with it too if you're not being hit with save things.
I have played a Monk/Jester before, from level 6 to 7 IIRC. Great fun - rushing about with a +1 Flaming Ladder, leaping over people, tripping with it, then when enemies get within the reach, punching them and Stunning them. Or using Grease to get enemies Flat-Footed, then flasking them with minor Sneak Attack and Stunning.
Count Arioch the 28th wrote:There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.
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Midnight_v
- Knight-Baron
- Posts: 629
- Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 10:27 pm
- Location: Texas
Crap I meant Problem Solver! Not active assault. Pulling feats out of my ass, was the underused item on my behalf. Not active assault. Sorry, brain lapse.OgreBattle wrote:What advice do you have for effective use of Active Assault? I find it intriguing but don't know much about what kind of difference it'd make. Use it to block off enemies? Force them to provoke OA? Avoid attacks?Midnight_v wrote: I just had to use my active assault better when the opportunites came up.
Was Combat Focus mainly used to land accurate attacks or what? I guess it would also be handy to leave for a vital save.
Any particularly memorable combos? Yeah, the Tome Monk seems the most fun to build and play, at a glance at least.Josh_Kablack wrote: I've also MC'd a game with a straight Tome Monk, and played a multiclassed Tome Monk in a game. That class is made of straight up awesome. It's strong without being overpowering. It's full of interesting combos with other classes and with Tome Feats. Those combos happen in ways that it's unlikely for any two Tome Monks in the same party to have the same set, so it manages to be highly playable, effective and entertaining.
As for combat focus, yes I used it for saves mostly, unless I was using Blitz in which case I would use it to ensure attacks landed, there are fights where you can't afford to miss because the damage exchange can be pretty great.
I also came to the conclusion that these classes can fight creatures of thier cr solo. Which is good once you realize what they can do and how to challenge that. The major difference is that they weren't bad at whatever they were supposed to be doing in the first place.
Don't hate the world you see, create the world you want....
...If only you'd have stopped forever...Dear Midnight, you have actually made me sad. I took a day off of posting yesterday because of actual sadness you made me feel in my heart for you.
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RiotGearEpsilon
- Knight
- Posts: 469
- Joined: Sun Jun 08, 2008 3:39 am
- Location: Cambridge, Massachusetts
I've played an aquatic-variant Human TomeBarbarian from level 11 to 16. As a house rule, everyone was immune to death for narrative reasons. My narrative reason was that I was immune to death and this was only barely a stretch from the rules as written.
Barbarians are great fun. You get in there and you hit people and not even God can stop you.
Barbarians are great fun. You get in there and you hit people and not even God can stop you.
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Josh_Kablack
- King
- Posts: 5318
- Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
- Location: Online. duh
That I've seen:OgreBattle wrote: Any particularly memorable combos? Yeah, the Tome Monk seems the most fun to build and play, at a glance at least.
Multiclassing Monk 1 with Snowscaper or Fire Mage to and taking Two Weapon Fighting gives crazy high melee damage from like 3rd thru 6th level.
Taking a monk style that gives a movement bonus along with Whirlwind is a good core combo. It can get crazy at +6 BAB if you can snag additional movement from a race or equipment and then have either the Combat School Feat (struck opponents save vs Daze) and/or the other part of your style be that Struck opponents save vs Stun, or the other part of the style being Con damage to reduce enemies making the save.
Taking 2wf on a monk and a combat style that damages movement and lets the effect apply to weapons. This was brutal as the rest of the PC party were ranged specialists or healers and it was the Monk's second style after taking a movement enhance. So they could reduce a tough melee enemy's move by 20', then Tumble away and/or the movement bonus on subsequent round to stay out of reach and let the rest of the party to kite that guy to death.
"But transportation issues are social-justice issues. The toll of bad transit policies and worse infrastructure—trains and buses that don’t run well and badly serve low-income neighborhoods, vehicular traffic that pollutes the environment and endangers the lives of cyclists and pedestrians—is borne disproportionately by black and brown communities."
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Dominicius
- Knight
- Posts: 491
- Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 8:28 pm
Speaking of the firemage, crazy fun class. I actually prefer to play the class stright up but slap my own homebrew Initiator feat on it picking Desert Wind.
Especially once you get Holocaust Cloak you can just wade into melee and start taking hits as you watch your enemies burn themselves. In addition to the essentially double your cha in fire damage with each hit.
Especially once you get Holocaust Cloak you can just wade into melee and start taking hits as you watch your enemies burn themselves. In addition to the essentially double your cha in fire damage with each hit.