What makes an RPG successful?

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:13 am

So y'all are well versed in mechanics and rules... but that's not the end all of making a successful game (see: Pathfinder)

So then, what are the elements which make a game successful? Make a game fail?

Not just the rules, but presentation? Learning Curve? Distribution? Marketing? Legacy? Everything.

infected slut princess · Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:15 am

If some kid plays your game and commits suicide when his character dies, the negative publicity and scandalous speculation will create an instant hit out of your RPG.

Aryxbez · Post by **Aryxbez** » Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:57 am

Manipulation sounds like a key one, trick the pre teens and RPG fans (Read:Neckbeards), into thinking your game delivering on their ideal and limited boring fantasies.

Duke Flauros · Post by **Duke Flauros** » Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:32 am

Aryxbez wrote:Manipulation sounds like a key one, trick the pre teens and RPG fans (Read:Neckbeards), into thinking your game delivering on their ideal and limited boring fantasies.

http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.ph ... d5&t=23138

There are neckbeards still vouching for 1/2e. I think presentation is the most important issue here.

CapnTthePirateG · Post by **CapnTthePirateG** » Tue Jul 17, 2012 8:14 am

Duke Flauros wrote:
Aryxbez wrote:Manipulation sounds like a key one, trick the pre teens and RPG fans (Read:Neckbeards), into thinking your game delivering on their ideal and limited boring fantasies.
http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.ph ... d5&t=23138

There are neckbeards still vouching for 1/2e. I think presentation is the most important issue here.

Why did you link that stupid fucking thread?

Aryxbez · Post by **Aryxbez** » Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:14 am

CapnTthePirateG wrote: Why did you link that stupid fucking thread?

(sighs) Indeed, especially when I went on a decently sized post of how I despised the people there. Course then oddly enough, linking posts would cause "Flame Wars" so mine got deleted, albeit..pretty sure Den does this all the time without their posts getting erased, so it kinda was "what the hell?" sort of moment for me.

Regardless, god, I'd like to think could make a really cool Fantasy RPG with appropriate abilities for everyone at high levels, and still be successful, even if ye don't attract the AD&D fans, and other ignorant masses.

Also, in terms of Marketing, Lago_Paranoia will no doubt share a thread/post or few on the matter.

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Tue Jul 17, 2012 1:03 pm

OgreBattle wrote:Not just the rules, but presentation? Learning Curve? Distribution? Marketing? Legacy? Everything.

"Marketing" and "legacy" sound about right to me. I would also add "little or no competition from video games", but that ship has sailed.

FatR · Post by **FatR** » Tue Jul 17, 2012 4:25 pm

Duke Flauros wrote: http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.ph ... d5&t=23138

There are neckbeards still vouching for 1/2e. I think presentation is the most important issue here.

This is "Legacy" part, actually. They are not vouching for 1E/2E but for the times when grass was greener and character optimization boards did not exist, so they could pretend that wizard does not win DnD forever at two-digit levels.

CapnTthePirateG · Post by **CapnTthePirateG** » Tue Jul 17, 2012 4:46 pm

Can't you charop the crap out of 2e as well? I don't have all the books but with the Skills and Powers, kits, etc. floating around it seems doable.

FatR · Post by **FatR** » Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:27 pm

CapnTthePirateG wrote:Can't you charop the crap out of 2e as well? I don't have all the books but with the Skills and Powers, kits, etc. floating around it seems doable.

Skills & Powers books were munchkin's wet dream. Unless my memory fails me, with that one could create a character with cleric's HD, saves, and all divine spells you really needed, plus full wizard spellcasting.

But it was possible to optimize shit out of 2E even without that, because the system was full of holes. To give an idea: fighter-mage dual class, where you could become fighter 10 or fighter 9/mage 10 for the same amount of experience, neatly bypassing the problem of dying from stepping on a hedgehod at first level, among other things. The main thing interfering with optimization was the fact that alot of things that could make or break the character were entirely luck-based. You had to hope that brutality of low levels will weed out unfit characters. But that affected everyone equally. Same goes for dependence on GM's whim for getting tools for the job (while wizards weren't entitled to spells, fighters weren't entitled to magic items and could easily find themselves in a situations where a monster is completely immune to them). Assuming equally fair access to written materials, in 2E you faced the fact that the castering classes were the only ones to gain new class abilties at all, while fighters and thieves were stuck with gradual increase of the same abilities they had at the start, and that the wizard was really the only class that constantly got new abilities and options in supplements. Even though the core already was full of overpowered bullshit, particularly at spell level 5 and above. People say that casters were weaker because you could disrupt casting, but past level 7 you couldn't, because there were at least 3 options in core alone that made wizard nearly Immune to Fighters: Flight + Protection from Normal Missiles; Imp.Invis (maybe + Flight); and Stoneskin, which you couldn't even bypass with right magic items (to which you weren't entitled). People say that making saves was easier, and they are wrong, because without magic items (to which you weren't entitled) you only started to save 50% of the time around level 10, and by that time wizards were getting save-reducing spells and no-save spells. The only wizard restriction that persisted if you survived the meatgrinder of low levels was long-ass memorization time, which could force casters to be careful with using high-level spell in timed adventures.

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:43 pm

CapnTthePirateG wrote:Can't you charop the crap out of 2e as well? I don't have all the books but with the Skills and Powers, kits, etc. floating around it seems doable.

I believe the stock response is "we never abused X in my group, so it must have been balanced".

fectin · Post by **fectin** » Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:13 pm

OgreBattle wrote:So y'all are well versed in mechanics and rules... but that's not the end all of making a successful game (see: Pathfinder)

So then, what are the elements which make a game successful? Make a game fail?

Not just the rules, but presentation? Learning Curve? Distribution? Marketing? Legacy? Everything.

Look for Lago's threads on what 5E should be like. I had one on format, but formatting is pretty low on the controversy totem pole.

rapa-nui · Post by **rapa-nui** » Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:41 pm

Man, am I glad this board is still around.

What makes a game successful is setting, marketing, and 'fun'. That last one is kinda hard to pin down.

There's probably also a huge luck component involved. The right people try the game and like it, they tell their friends that tell their friends... etc.

Duke Flauros · Post by **Duke Flauros** » Tue Jul 17, 2012 10:03 pm

CapnTthePirateG wrote:Why did you link that stupid fucking thread?

It's a good example of how a game can successfully outlive its expected expiration date.

FatR wrote:This is "Legacy" part, actually. They are not vouching for 1E/2E but for the times when grass was greener and character optimization boards did not exist, so they could pretend that wizard does not win DnD forever at two-digit levels.

They actually think that fighters are equal or even better.

Sacrosanct wrote: Nobody is 1-shotting anything at level 10, that's a disingenuous argument. It also completely misses the point I mentioned above: a MU or cleric might have a more effective attack for only a couple times a day, but the fighter keeps going and going all day long.

If MU could cast lightning bolt indefinitely and not worry about fucking up his spell or getting interrupted, maybe you'd have a point.

Talysman wrote: Yeah, it's a weird thing.

My opinion is that the classes aren't balanced, but for a reason. The Fighter is simple and direct. You get the best initial abilities if you pick the Fighter. The Fighter gets steadily more powerful. The Fighter is uncomplicated. The Wizard, though, doesn't get the Fighter's initial boost, and is never going to do as well as the Fighter in ordinary combat. What the Wizard gets is one-shot resources, each with its own rules. The Wizard is more complicated to play, and although any one spell may "outshine" the Fighter or another class, that's for one minute, or ten minutes, or some other very limited time... ONCE.

And that's at a cost, at least in early editions. Originally, 1st level M-Us got one book that contained all the standard 1st level spells. When they increased to 3rd level, they got... nothing. If they spend at least 4,000 gp, they have a chance -- a *chance* -- of successfully adding a new second level spell to their repertoire.

Want to cast Fireball? OK, earn 20,000 xp and spend a minimum of 8,000 GP. If you're *lucky*, you have successfully researched Fireball after three weeks of work. 90% of the time, however, you have to spend more money.

AD&D watered this down a bit by giving M-Us one free spell every time they went up a level. Also, I think it lets you bypass the research rule if you find a spell in a spellbook or scroll, lowering the cost to a couple hundred GP (still more than just about any piece of equipment a Fighter would need... but still much cheaper than the original.) I have no idea what god-awful changes were added even later, but if that makes the disparity between Fighters and Wizards even more enormous... well, whose fault is that?

thedungeondelver wrote: The whole "problem" is bullshit.

In AD&D a 10th level magic user can drop 4 or 5 fireball spells (assuming they can use those based on the environment or have them memorized). So we have our 10th level fireball. 10d6. Average: 30 points. Save for half: 15.

And the lucky mage can do that 5 times a day.

Meanwhile, the 10th level fighter who has, say, a 17 strength and a +3 longsword is doing 13 points of damage, average 6. GASP. ONLY HALF WHAT THE MAGIC USER WHY THAT'S DEPROTAGONIZING OF A GYGAXIAN LEVEL OF FUCKERY. Except when that fireball-throwing is over, the fighter can draw his sword and do his average 6 damage. Again. And again. And again. And again. Oh, right, that same fighter is also bringing it twice every other round. So now the average is up to 9. Again, and again, and again. Meanwhile the "all-mighty magic-user" is back to lobbing bottles of burning oil.

Dig it.

infected slut princess · Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:32 am

I think it is critical that your actual core rules be free and available for multiple platforms. PARTICULARLY APPS FOR MOBILE DEVICES.

So have your SRD available free as a PDF, website, and snappy apps for mobile devices, etc. Have a cheap physical book that you can buy for X amount of money but dont put much emphasis on it. Have some kind of interface that syncs over multiple devices. So you can update your character sheet on your computer and it updates on your iphone app.

Expansions would then be sold the way they do it on Xbox Live and stuff like that. Pay low prices for small stuff, but at high margins. So you can buy "Monsters of the Secret Continent", or "Ninja Clans: Player Options", or "The Forgotten Moon: Campaign Setting" or whatever suits you. Have only crunch expansions or 50-50 setting/crunch expansions (absolutely no 100% setting crap unless you can mark it up substantially). These expansions "plug in" to your interface system and again they sync with all your devices. Let people provide user-created content and make it easy for other people to get it.

Also critical is to build a strong online community around your game, because that just reinforces itself. I think that's the main reason Paizo is doing well -- they can just sell stuff directly to the dudes who hang around their forums at high margins.

rapa-nui · Post by **rapa-nui** » Wed Jul 18, 2012 1:22 am

^
This.

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Wed Jul 18, 2012 3:15 am

infected slut princess wrote:I think it is critical that your actual core rules be free and available for multiple platforms. PARTICULARLY APPS FOR MOBILE DEVICES.

So what RPG company does this? Or what tabletop game?

tussock · Post by **tussock** » Wed Jul 18, 2012 3:50 am

Re: thread topic.

Sales. Which mostly comes down to people enjoying the idea of playing the thing, without being proven wrong too quickly by experience. Also, it helps if the cool kids are doing it.

Duke Flauros · Post by **Duke Flauros** » Wed Jul 18, 2012 3:52 am

OgreBattle wrote:
infected slut princess wrote:I think it is critical that your actual core rules be free and available for multiple platforms. PARTICULARLY APPS FOR MOBILE DEVICES.
So what RPG company does this? Or what tabletop game?

The OGL, along with the SRD, helped prolong 3E's lifespan.

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Wed Jul 18, 2012 3:59 am

I meant the 'apps for mobile devices' portion in particular. So are there RPGs I can go on the appstore and download?

Korwin · Post by **Korwin** » Wed Jul 18, 2012 4:31 am

OgreBattle wrote:I meant the 'apps for mobile devices' portion in particular. So are there RPGs I can go on the appstore and download?

http://www.shrapnelgames.com/Disrupted_ ... _page.html

Zinegata · Post by **Zinegata** » Wed Jul 18, 2012 5:39 am

The first and most important thing to realize about the modern gaming scene is that people are no longer willing to spend 4+ hours for a single game session.

There are just too many things competing for our attention now. The Internet. Video games. Girls who actually play video games. The people who are willing to play a game that takes 4+ hours is now a severely dwindling market.

That is why I'd think that the next big successful RPG is the one that is best able to streamline the whole process - and make a game session playable in 2 hours. You'd think 4E would count, but by my experience the game actually drags for an unnecessarily long time because of all the damn rolls you have to make thanks to stupid padded sumo; not to mention that it's simply a bad game period.

And the game that's coming closest to that ideal so far are boardgames like Arkham Horror and Descent - whose only real problem is a lack of a real campaign system (none for Arkham and a poor one for Descent) to make a session-to-session style of play truly viable.

Apps and tools to help old school gamers who love 2E and 3E will also help, but I really doubt that all of the tools will crunch the playtime enough to make these old school RPGs anything but a dying or niche breed. The day of "traditional" D&D has simply come and gone.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:16 pm

Zinegata wrote:And the game that's coming closest to that ideal so far are boardgames like Arkham Horror and Descent - whose only real problem is a lack of a real campaign system (none for Arkham and a poor one for Descent) to make a session-to-session style of play truly viable.

Yeah. If someone made a version of Arkham Horror with a satisfying Great One Awakens subsystem and a decent Campaign system, I think I'd end up just playing that most weekends.

-Username17

angelfromanotherpin · Post by **angelfromanotherpin** » Wed Jul 18, 2012 1:55 pm

What would you say is needed for a decent campaign system? Like, how much would the characters/board/whatever have to carry over from the previous game?

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Wed Jul 18, 2012 3:15 pm

angelfromanotherpin wrote:What would you say is needed for a decent campaign system? Like, how much would the characters/board/whatever have to carry over from the previous game?

Ideally, your "character progress" should stay with you in subsequent games. Your "quest specific" abilities don't have to. And achieving victories or defeats should likewise count for something. This is basically not doable in games like Talisman or Arkham Horror, because the character rampup is ridiculous. Starting a game of Arkham Horror with all the powers, skills, and just crazy stuff you end up with by the end of the game would be like getting eight free turns without an enemy in the next game - that's clearly too much.

Allies are good because they can feel like real advancement without making things too unbalanced in subsequent games. Between adventures they can go home - which is to say that they stop being attached to your character and start being in a face-up pile of "old friends", and you can take precious turns to go over to their house and have them join up again. This gives continuity between games ("Katrina Cho is back!"), but it also gives a solid limit to how much power you can accumulate. If the Old Friends deck gets big enough, you won't have time to pick up everyone and you'll just pick up characters who you think are vital to the newer, harder missions.

It's also good to have forms of advancement that can plausibly just get recycled into the deck at the end of the game. Having clues be a bigger part of the game and be represented by tangible abilities rather than simple in-game currency would be a good start. I mean, having the Serpent Cult Password could be all kinds of useful, but if serpent cultists show up as villains in the next adventure, they'll presumably have a different password and you'll plausibly not have that card any more.

Artifacts could go into storage or something as well. At the beginning of the game, you don't have the Necronomicon with you (that thing is dangerous), but you can spend precious turns walking over and getting it from the library. Again, the key is to mix in as much continuity as possible without breaking the subsequent games.

But it should also go the other way. Buildings that get destroyed should be under construction at the beginning of the next game and there should be some mechanic by which they can open dynamically during play.

-Username17

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What makes an RPG successful?

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