The Gaming Den

...wondering how you guys usually go about it. Well, how you go about picking what to keep from the Core rules and classes, that is. I've read all the Tome material (at least the full PDF, but not all the non-Frank/K supplements) at least once, but I can't remember/find any place where it says how it should interact with the Core classes.

Is the Cleric/Druic/Wizard/Sorceror fine to have in a game with a Tome Fighter/Monk/Assassin/Samurai? Are there other Tome classes that replace the above mentioned that I've missed? What about the classes that don't have (to me, at least) a clear "replacement" in the Tomes, like the rogue. Do you keep the Rogue and still use the Assassin and Thief Acrobat, or is the Rogue replaced by them? What other books should you allow, what spells should be allowed? What is the normal encounter CR for a Tome party? (I think I've read somewhere around here that it's like 3-4 levels higher...) What are other considerations/tips for running a Tome game?

The Cleric, Druid and Wizard are the balance points the Tome rules were written for. Playing one of those in a Tome game is fine. Sorcerer is also OK, but is basically a weaker version of the Wizard. Rogues can be done, but only if you know what you're doing enough to be able to play a rogue on wizard/cleric level.

Assassins require a greater degree of system mastery to play effectively, I'd say.

As regards appropriate challenge ratings, it varies. At low levels, there's not much of a difference. It becomes more pronounced as you gain levels, but that's probably more a problem with the inaccuracies of many CRs than it is with Tome classes. If you have D&D tactics ninja players, then you'll need extra powerful challenges. Generally speaking, for some party level N, it's better to use several monsters of CR N or N-1 than it is to use one monster of level N+2 or N+3. Combats tend to be a bit more dynamic this way.

Tome material was supposed to be added to basic 3e, so really you shouldn't need to take anything out. Regarding replacement classes, anything with a direct named replacement can be taken to supercede the original but apart from that any of the original classes can be used.

Regarding CR of encounters, a Tome group is pretty similar to a group composed entirely of Full casters in the combat stakes, so expect to have to up the difficulty. I've been running CR+2 as standard encounters up to CR+4 / +5 for a tough fight. Definitely second the multiple enemies thing - in Tome so many classes have a single target hoser (Samurai, Knight) or an on-hit stunlock that a single enemy stands a good chance of never getting an action.

You gotten reasonable answers to the solid questions, so lemme tackle the softer one from a perspective of personal experience:

Sajber wrote:...wondering how you guys usually go about it. Well, how you go about picking what to keep from the Core rules and classes, that is.

Usually I start with a setting idea, and then cut out material that doesn't fit with the setting - whether that material is Core or Tome. Then I pull in replacement classes from Tome, Splatbook or Net Content to make sure there are multiple but not overwhelming options for each character niche (Swording, Sneaking, Blasting, Duct-Taping and Hybrids of Those). Then I look at class balance and try to make sure that the available classes are roughly on the same scale. Having a core Monk and a Core Druid both available as things players can choose is just as bad as having Tome Thief-Acrobat and Tome Fighter both available as things players can choose.

Last time around, I cut out a bunch of heavy armor classes and a bunch of vancian casting classes. Doing stuff like replacing Fighters with Tome Samurai and Wizards with Fire Mage and Snowscaper.

Red_Rob wrote: in Tome so many classes have a single target hoser (Samurai, Knight) or an on-hit stunlock that a single enemy stands a good chance of never getting an action.

I imagine the average screenshot of a Tome game would look like this:






How does Tomes look for E6?
The Fighter then has combat focus, problem solver and active assault
Samurai has 5 uses of Iajutsu and bypasses DR
Knight has Defend others and quick recovery
Barbarian is Barbarian and Barbarian
Monk can stack two fighting styles once per day


Do you have to be a highly optimized caster to keep the game fun with Tome Full BAB classes?

Ok then, that clears it up, thanks!

Josh_Kablack wrote:Having a core Monk and a Core Druid both available as things players can choose is just as bad as having Tome Thief-Acrobat and Tome Fighter both available as things players can choose.

Exactly why wouldn't you have Tome Fighter and Thief Acrobat in the same game? Are there other classes you wouldn't have available in the same game, and why?

Tome Thief Acrobat is weak, Tome Fighter is strong, much as a Druid is strong and Monk is weak.

It doesn't do anyone any favors to have them both be in the same party. Either combats are too easy for the strong, or too difficult for the weak.

Didt someone make a buffed version of the Thief-Acrobat, or am I hallucinating?

Someone said "give them full BAB", something that helps if you're using Races of War for combat and your player actually pays attention to combat sections, but not exactly helpful otherwise.

It does give them more punch with their feats, though.

Okay, so how does this class list look?

Core: Bard, Cleric, Druid, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, Sorcerer, Wizard
Tome: Assassin, Barbarian, Fighter, Fire Mage, Knight, Monk, Samurai, Summoner

Ok, given that I do have a knight and a thief acrobat in the same party right now... and am not using RoW scaling feats, is there some kind of spot fix I can do for the TA?

Bard Paladin and Ranger are not real classes.

Also, if you are adding Tome classes, then pick some more off this list because like 99% of them are weaker than the Tome Fighter, so balance isn't a concern.

And for god sakes, why the fuck does anyone use the goddam fire mage. There are like eight different kinds of class like that, and they are all more interesting than the fire mage because they have out of combat abilities.

Basically what Kaelik said. Also get rid of the fighter because it's broken as hell, and I recommend using something like the Storm Lord, Dread Necromancer, and/or Warlock because you're really low on mage classes there.

Kaelik wrote: Also, if you are adding Tome classes, then pick some more off this list because like 99% of them are weaker than the Tome Fighter, so balance isn't a concern.

And for god sakes, why the fuck does anyone use the goddam fire mage. There are like eight different kinds of class like that, and they are all more interesting than the fire mage because they have out of combat abilities.

Because when they go search for Fire Mage, that's the one that comes up. And the cycle continues. Heck, it's the only named-Fire Mage on the list that you linked.

Sajber wrote:]Exactly why wouldn't you have Tome Fighter and Thief Acrobat in the same game?

Josh_Kablack wrote:

1) What's your opinion on the Tome Thief Acrobat class?
I like the flavor, but how well does it hold up in actual play. While it looks interesting, it seems to be more of a dip class to me.

It's on the weak side in both DC's Sharn Watch game and my Enkpja Game. I strongly advise giving it either full BAB and/or every even level sneak attack.

Note that the tome progression doesn't get the second sneak attack die until 5th level. so with sneak attack and 2wf a 4th level TA is dealing like 2* (2d6+Str) in *melee*. Compare to the 4th level Fire Mage dealing 4d6+4 fire as a *ranged touch* attack without needing a feat nor a sneak attack condition. note that the attack bonuses are equal (if you are using tome feats, if not the 2wf penalties hose the TA worse) and note that the Fire mage gets MORE HP, better saves, and better WPs (but fewer skill points)

See Also: http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=51417
and: http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=51522

Prak_Anima wrote:Ok, given that I do have a knight and a thief acrobat in the same party right now... and am not using RoW scaling feats, is there some kind of spot fix I can do for the TA?

Korgan0 wrote:Didt someone make a buffed version of the Thief-Acrobat, or am I hallucinating?

Josh_Kablack wrote:IThief Acrobat is maybe on par with a middle of the pack PHB class, and complete ass when other Tome Classes are available. I already did a revision. If that's too extreme, at least tweak it too full BAB , and switch the sneak attack progression to +1d6 sneak attack at every even level - the one level delay will keep that far enough behind rogue already.

Needlessly hostile wrote:And for god sakes, why the fuck does anyone use the goddam fire mage. There are like eight different kinds of class like that, and they are all more interesting than the fire mage because they have out of combat abilities.

Because it meets Frank's listed design criteria:

• Character must "feel like" a Wizard in the sense that if you saw him doing his stuff in a movie you'd describe him as a Wizard.
• Character must be able to take on opponents of his level drawn from Team Monster in a reasonable manner.
• Character must be able to be explained to a new player in a reasonable amount of time even starting at a high level.
• Character should have a defined battlefield role.

And well, a lot of the other similar, but more flexible class choice have issues with the 3rd and 4th points there. The Fire Mage is a functional blaster that you can give to a new player without confusing him, slowing the game or having a non-contributing party member.

erik wrote:Because when they go search for Fire Mage, that's the one that comes up. And the cycle continues. Heck, it's the only named-Fire Mage on the list that you linked.

No erk, I mean, here is a list of classes that are fun to play:

Storm Lord, Force Potentate, Shadowcaster, Snowscaper, Wintersmith, Cool Dude, Green Mage, Snowsoul.

Here is a list of classes that might as well be a PHB fighter for how much the contribute to out of combat, and how interesting they are to play:

Firemage.

So why the fuck do people suggest playing the Firemage and not a good class?

Josh's theory, that all people are idiots, it probably the best theory that could exist, but even that fails because Storm Lord has been called a perfect newbie class.

Having MC'd a Fire Mage, I can tell you that they can contribute a good deal out of combat. Generating large amounts of light and destroying stubborn objects at range are limited but versatile schticks. Of course, making a lot of fire/heat also has out-of-combat applications, such as protecting people from the cold, or boiling an entire pool away.

Then you get Mindfire, which can do wonders for your social machinations. And then you get Contact Other Plane at will.

Kaelik's entitled to his opinion, but I think he's dead wrong.

Kaelik has a point there. From level 1 to level 6, all of your powers boil down to:
-Inflict level appropriate fire damage in combat.
-Destroy scenery, doors, etc. with fire.
-Save ~1gp total on torches across 5 character levels.
-Give the fighter +1 to damage/attack/Will saves. (Rage)
-Cast a single target save or suck. (Confusion)

Mindfire is basically useless for social interactions. It's only at level 7 when you get Visions of Flame, and then the Beacon + Firewalk combo at level 11, which is enough utility to care about.

Okay, let me be clear here.

The Firemage is not a "bad" class.

But it was 1) whipped up in a day. 2) The very first class using that resource management system. 3) Made specifically for dumbasses who couldn't handle out of combat utility or driving the story.

There has been serious improvement in understanding what sort of utility at will casters can be given to make them interesting.

Things like the snowsoul and Sand Mage are really good about hitting that balance (Sand Mage is kinda weak in combat at levels right before his elementals power up).

The Firemage is super super scaled back on utility, and to hear people calling "breaking things" and "creating light" useful utility is like being on therpgsite and hearing how fighters can open doors.

A single classed PHB fighter focusing on spring attack can also break things and hold a torch. That's not utility, that's the kind of thing that when it costs a feat in Complete Mage we fucking laugh and talk about how it's a cantrip.

The Firemage isn't bad, but there is no reason to call it out as worth inclusion when you aren't bringing in the other classes that are just straight more interesting. Just going down the Community Material (which doesn't include a lot of good stuff) list, and only naming classes that use the exact same resource system and serve the exact same general theme and purpose:

Acid Mage, Icewalker, Force Mage, (some favored souls), force mage, force potentate, Sand Mage, snowscaper, storm lord, telekinetic, time mage, warper.

Now, some of those are worse than the Fire mage, but it's not like we aren't skipping all the pick abilities off a list to use at will classes:

(Totemist, Conduit, Warlocks, Psion, Shadowcaster)

Or classes not on that list:

Green Mage, Snowsoul, (Wintersmith, Cool Dude), other things I'm forgetting.

There is no reason to include the firemage, but not include several of those classes that are just more interesting and more representative of what the Tomes actually bring that is worth being brought.

I mean, if you want overpowered combat monsters like the Barbarian and Fire Mage for your girlfriend who's only there to be present and doesn't know the rules, that's fine. But there is no reason to include those classes and not other ones for people who actually want to play D&D.

Yeah, I'd choose many of the other ones (probably Green Mage or, if there'd been a break since the last game-with-Cthulhu-elements, Star Mage) instead of Fire Mage. Largely because they have a variety of more interesting out-of-combat abilities.

There are heaps of classes made vaguely with Tome in mind that more or less work fine with Tome classes, not underperforming by any real measure, nor dominating the field.

For the challenges, I would recommend either giving the monsters Tome feats (or at least selecting the feats instead of picking basic ones), using groups of monsters, or just treating the party as a level or two higher for the purpose of CR. Ideally things like "The party is level 6, so I'll use a CR 6 and two CR 4 creatures"

Yeah, I'm finding some interesting things with the game I'm running. The party consists of a Tome Knight, Tome Thief Acrobat (was the old version, I had him convert to the revised), Tome Warmage, and Kantian Paladin, as well as an Artificer who just joined and didn't do much in the short game we did the other night.

Single monsters whose big thing is HP go down ridiculously quickly. Large groups of less powerful mobs generally get chewed through in a slog fest. I'm still trying to find the sweet spot of challenge, because, unless I do something absolutely insane, like a group of 4 HD Intellect Devourers that out number the party 3 to 1 and just hit with Ego Whip, they really aren't challenged. I'm starting to think that the thing that really needs to be done is, well, actually Koumei's suggestion of "The party is level 6, so I'll use a CR 6 and two CR 4 creatures" could work decently, and I'll give it a shot, and I need to throw more things at them that aren't gimped for one reason or another (Huge Firebreathing Chickens are still chickens, a crazy mindflayer gathering brains to offer up to cthulhu isn't going to be extracting, etc.)

Kaelik wrote:A single classed PHB fighter focusing on spring attack can also break things and hold a torch. That's not utility, that's the kind of thing that when it costs a feat in Complete Mage we fucking laugh and talk about how it's a cantrip.

I know you have an imagination, so I have to assume you're deliberately not using it so you can say shit as stupid as that without experiencing cognitive dissonance.

'Hold a torch' is not equivalent to 'rapidly create enough bonfires to convincingly bluff that you have an army.' It's not even equivalent to 'a large number of distinctive trail markers that are difficult to fuck with,' or 'crazy visible and unmistakable signal flares.'

A dude with Spring Attack and a glaive cannot 'break things' on the scale of burning down a stone bridge or carving the arm off a terrain-sized statue. He can't even destroy the macguffin without ever entering the trapped room it's in.

And this single-classed PHB Fighter certainly can't:
• Weld Adamantine.
• Provide heat to keep people alive in a fuck-you cold blizzard.
• Boil a swimming pool.

That's the bar that has to be met by 'guy with glaive and torch.' If you can explain to me how he can reach that bar, you might have a leg to stand on.

Or you could not engage what I actually said and spout false equivalences again.

Grek wrote:Mindfire is basically useless for social interactions.

If you can't come up with a social use for having people you don't like lose their cool or their reason for no apparent cause, you are not trying.

Kaelik wrote:But there is no reason to include those classes and not other ones for people who actually want to play D&D.

Like, 'clear the Tomb of Horrors' actual D&D?