Getting around mind blank as a Beguiler.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sun Aug 05, 2012 1:37 pm

Pretty much what the title says. Help a dude out here.

Korgan0 · Post by **Korgan0** » Sun Aug 05, 2012 1:55 pm

Uh, I have no idea what you mean. Are you trying to do bad stuff to a person who has mind blank cast on them, or what?

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sun Aug 05, 2012 2:01 pm

Yes. More generally, I'd like to know how to outright defeat mind blank since it renders a large portion of the enchantment school and a good portion of the illusion school impotent, but if a beguiler can get around it without having to resort to stuff like Arcane Disciple or plundering shadow magic that'll just be ducky.

Korgan0 · Post by **Korgan0** » Sun Aug 05, 2012 2:41 pm

I don't know if mind blank has been talked about in errata or FAQ's, but I'm not seeing how it defeats illusion, or even a good chunk of enchantment. I think the most logical interpretation is that it only defeats efforts that directly affect the target's emotions or thoughts, and nothing else, in that they seek to affect a change in mental states without the target knowing it. I'm sure that definition is full of holes, but I think you get the idea.

Given that, you can throw up illusions as much as you damn well please, along with stuff like Slow, Hold Person, (maybe) feeblemind, overwhelm (which only works if you're in touch range for some godforsaken reason and they're not immune to nonlethal damage), the various power words, and Solid Fog. All in all, you should be pretty much fine in terms of getting around it. As for out-and-out defeating it, Dispel Magic probably works pretty well. Failing that, if you can stop them re-casting it or having it re-cast on them, you can just wait twenty-four hours, although that probably won't work too well.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sun Aug 05, 2012 3:00 pm

Korgan0 wrote:I don't know if mind blank has been talked about in errata or FAQ's, but I'm not seeing how it defeats illusion, or even a good chunk of enchantment. I think the most logical interpretation is that it only defeats efforts that directly affect the target's emotions or thoughts, and nothing else, in that they seek to affect a change in mental states without the target knowing it. I'm sure that definition is full of holes, but I think you get the idea.

Hey you, dumbass. "This spell protects against all mind-affecting spells and effects" that's from the fucking spell description.

Korgan0 wrote:Hold Person, (maybe) feeblemind, overwhelm (which only works if you're in touch range for some godforsaken reason and they're not immune to nonlethal damage), the various power words, and Solid Fog.

Hold Person:
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]

Power Word [Anything]:
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]

Feeblemind:
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]

Overwhelm:
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]

So guess what, you can use the 3rd level spell Slow and the 4th level spell Solid Fog against your 8th level adversary. Hope they don't have anything to do about that like teleportation at level 15.

angelfromanotherpin · Post by **angelfromanotherpin** » Sun Aug 05, 2012 3:02 pm

Korgan0 wrote:I don't know if mind blank has been talked about in errata or FAQ's, but I'm not seeing how it defeats illusion, or even a good chunk of enchantment.

Mind Blank specifically protects from all mind-affecting effects. All Enchantments are mind-affecting effects. In the Illusion school, all Patterns and Phantasms are mind affecting effects.

So to look at your list:

• Illusions: except for Patterns and Phantasms.*
• Slow: Valid
• Hold Person: Mind-Affecting
• Feeblemind: Mind-Affecting
• Overwhelm: Mind-Affecting
• The various power words: All Mind-Affecting
• Solid Fog: Valid

You should not be giving advice on this subject.

*Not sure what percentage of Beguiler illusions are Patterns/Phantasms, so not sure how flawed this notion is. But it is.

Korgan0 · Post by **Korgan0** » Sun Aug 05, 2012 3:09 pm

Kaelik wrote:
Korgan0 wrote:I don't know if mind blank has been talked about in errata or FAQ's, but I'm not seeing how it defeats illusion, or even a good chunk of enchantment. I think the most logical interpretation is that it only defeats efforts that directly affect the target's emotions or thoughts, and nothing else, in that they seek to affect a change in mental states without the target knowing it. I'm sure that definition is full of holes, but I think you get the idea.
Hey you, dumbass. "This spell protects against all mind-affecting spells and effects" that's from the fucking spell description.

Korgan0 wrote:Hold Person, (maybe) feeblemind, overwhelm (which only works if you're in touch range for some godforsaken reason and they're not immune to nonlethal damage), the various power words, and Solid Fog.
Hold Person:
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]

Power Word [Anything]:
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]

Feeblemind:
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]

Overwhelm:
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]

So guess what, you can use the 3rd level spell Slow and the 4th level spell Solid Fog against your 8th level adversary. Hope they don't have anything to do about that like teleportation at level 15.

Shit, I missed that sentence. Kaelik's right, I'm a dumbass.

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Sun Aug 05, 2012 3:22 pm

charm others to attack them?
put illusions on them for others to attack them?

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sun Aug 05, 2012 4:05 pm

OgreBattle wrote:charm others to attack them?
put illusions on them for others to attack them?

Pretty much this. By the time you have Mass Charm, the inability of your direct spells to affect any particular target is largely irrelevant.

Against golems and skeletons, you take their immunity to mind affecting bullshit in stride, because solid fog and silent image makes you automatically beat those assholes. Those sorts of root kiting tactics almost certainly won't work on someone powerful enough to be benefiting from an 8th level Wizard spell. But by this time, a Beguiler should have a personal army of monsters and giants, so you can probably bust out mass invisibility and greater dispel or something.

-Username17

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Sun Aug 05, 2012 5:18 pm

I'd use the extra spell learning ability (whatever it's called) to grab Shadow Conjuration and/or Shadow Evocation for situations like that.

wotmaniac · Post by **wotmaniac** » Sun Aug 05, 2012 5:57 pm

Well, FWIW, there's the Shatter Mindblank psionic power. ... maybe slap it on a custom item or something. Other than that, I'd have to go with some sort of disspell effect. Either way, you're spending an action on it.

/twocents

ishy · Post by **ishy** » Sun Aug 05, 2012 7:58 pm

Ask your fellow players if you can take the eclectic feature for advanced learning.
(from phb2 in the alternate features for the warmage section I believe)

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sun Aug 05, 2012 10:04 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:Pretty much this. By the time you have Mass Charm, the inability of your direct spells to affect any particular target is largely irrelevant.

What about spells that don't require you to build up a personal army for your use ahead of time?

I know that binding/charm/calling/leadership shenanigans are totes legal by RAW, but it's been my experience in 3E games that stating that you have a bunch of powerful and persistent tokens that depends on events happening offscreen and/or by the grace of the DM get the stinkeye.

Yeah, I know that this is a grognardian 'it doesn't feel right to me personally, so it doesn't work' cop-out, but I'd rather have a tactic that doesn't raise the mental alarm.

DrPraetor · Post by **DrPraetor** » Sun Aug 05, 2012 10:13 pm

What level of Beguiler are you? Do you need to take out Mind Blank opposition all by yourself, or are you just supporting a more or less standard party of three to five as you collectively fight an enemy who happens to have Mind Blank up?

Or are you just arguing with other people about the hypothetical utility of Mind Blank against a Beguiler? (it's good, of course - but greater dispel on his enslaved minions is going to have better irony value).

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sun Aug 05, 2012 10:17 pm

I am arguing with other people about the hypothetical utility of Mind Blank against Beguilers/Enchantment school. And yes, I am aware that in an actual game it's not a big deal at all because of the party system and to some extent a theoretical situational gimping is necessary.

This thought exercise is just mental masturbation in the same spirit as 'contrived CharOP Boards 1-on-1 arena fights'.

Tumbling Down · Post by **Tumbling Down** » Sun Aug 05, 2012 10:35 pm

Well, the Nightmare Spinner in Complete Something* has an adaption that lets them get around mind affecting immunity. Does it have to be a straight class Beguiler?

*I believe it's Mage, but I do not have my books near me.

K · Post by K » Sun Aug 05, 2012 11:16 pm

The whole point of the Beguiler is that it has a good list and it's wicked easy to get good spells onto it.

So you just do that.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sun Aug 05, 2012 11:44 pm

Yeah, something like Beguiler 5/Mindbender 1/Divine Oracle 2/X 2/Contemplative 1 can give you whatever one domain you want, casting still of off Int.

And you can take one of those bloodline feats from Dragon Compendium or something.

Shit you do as a Beguiler and all.

Or just be a Rainbow Servant.

ishy · Post by **ishy** » Mon Aug 06, 2012 12:21 am

Rainbow servant is pretty much terrible for a beguiler?
It only allows you to grab some cleric/domain spells with your advanced learning class feature.

You'd be better off with runestaves or something.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Mon Aug 06, 2012 12:56 am

ishy wrote:Rainbow servant is pretty much terrible for a beguiler?
It only allows you to grab some cleric/domain spells with your advanced learning class feature.

This is the first time I've seen that reading of it. Typically people view it as "Because they're added to your class list (which you automatically know all of), you know them all." as opposed to "You gain the ability to learn these spells, therefore enjoy using your Advanced Learning".

Now you don't get "The Cleric List" until character level 15? 17? I don't have the book in front of me so I'm not sure what level you qualify at. But it's very late in the game. But you do get acces to Air and stuff much earlier (ie "Before Mind Blank comes online").

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Mon Aug 06, 2012 1:50 am

ishy wrote:Rainbow servant is pretty much terrible for a beguiler?
It only allows you to grab some cleric/domain spells with your advanced learning class feature.

You'd be better off with runestaves or something.

No, that's completely wrong. It adds all those spells to your class spell list. beguilers know all spells on their class list. Therefore, they know all the spells.

It's terrible for Sorcerers.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Mon Aug 06, 2012 2:04 am

Yeah, Sorcerers take that "I licked a statue in the desert and get all these It's Hot Outside spells" Prestige Class. Though a Beguiler is also free to take that, unless it has some requirement that prevents them from doing it.

They (both) also have the option to get spells via the It's Cold Outside feat. Come to think of it, don't we have a thread somewhere about "How to gank a bunch of extra spells as a Sorcerer (or Beguiler/Warmage/Dread Necromancer)"?

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:00 am

Koumei wrote:Though a Beguiler is also free to take that, unless it has some requirement that prevents them from doing it.

Well, the lost caster level at level 1 when you get that feature is pretty shitty.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:12 am

Oh, that's right. Sorcerers get a free pass because they're Kobold Sorcerers with that rite + feat that says "Tada! You cast as 1 Sorcerer Level higher!" and decide to be nice by taking a single -1 rather than rocking out at caster level > character level. Not that anyone would care, what with +1 level meaning "You gain new spell levels when the Wizard does. Um, yay?"

I can see a Beguiler taking that PrCl still, but yeah, that lost caster level does mean it's not a no-brainer. Because delayed spell level gaining actually does hurt.

Duke Flauros · Post by **Duke Flauros** » Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:14 am

You could always use runestaffs.