D&D Land doesn't [i]have[/i] to suck

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D&D Land doesn't [i]have[/i] to suck

Post by Chamomile »

The below is an essay I wrote up for reasons not at all related to the Den, but which was inspired by the Tome's iron age "everything kind of sucks" mentality and the general opinion on the Den that this is how D&D Land has to be in order to make sense at all. While I am mildly interested in the Den's opinion on this piece, I am mostly running this by here as a fact-checking thing. The main question for this thread is "are any of my statements or conclusions provably, factually wrong?" Was kind of torn between posting it here or in MPSIMS, but ultimately decided that it was pretty on-topic since it is 100% about D&D 3.5e.

Also, general advice on making this more readable. I'm probably condensing some of the first 2/3s or so, where I talk about why, from a logical standpoint, the world as presented by the D&D rules would probably suck. Just because I'm not sure even an otherwise uninitiated reader needs it hammered home that hard and that often and I'm worried the essay drags its feet a bit there.
Faerun used to be a nice place to live. The terrible villains resigned themselves to skulking in the shadows, occasionally lashing out at the world, and always they were turned back by a party of intrepid heroes, usually including a scimitar-wielding Drow. Then 4e rolled around and the spellplague hit, burning half the setting to the ground.

Krynn got a similar treatment during the 3.0/3.5 era. The original Dragonlance trilogy, regardless of what you think about its quality, was fundamentally about a world finally throwing off the last of the shadows of the Cataclysm and going on to a future that was, at last, brighter than the past. That's why, thematically speaking, the seat of evil was in the ruins of the old empire at the heart of the Cataclysm. The last wounds of Krynn's post-apocalyptic past were finally healed...And then a week later another Cataclysm hit, ripping the world to pieces and sending it spiraling back into darkness.

Athas was already a wreck, so the writers just discontinued it altogether through 3.5e, then revived it in 4e for literally one day before leaving it unsupported again. Someone pass the lube to Greyhawk and Eberron, surely one of them is to be similarly decimated during the run of NEXT.

Possibly the worst part of all this is that D&D Land, the world we get just by examining the mechanics and genre assumptions of D&D without creating any specific setting details to go with it, the base template from which all original D&D settings are created, that land is in worse shape than even the post-apocalyptic nature of the majority of D&D's official settings, with possibly the exception of Athas.

In D&D Land, the world is fundamentally the same as the early 1400s Earth. Literacy rates are high amongst adventurers, but check out the starting funds of even the poorest class and then compare it to the standard 1 sp daily income of your average farmer or laborer, who are going to be about 90% of your population in this scenario. Even a level one adventurer of the majority of classes is going to have enough cash to pay a farmer's wages for 3 or 4 months. Adventurers also have significantly higher average stats than common people. While it could be argued that this is because unexceptional people do not become heroes, the fact that your party caster spent enough money on his crossbow to feed the average peasant for a year suggests the superior attributes of adventurers is in most cases just because they were brought up on a far better diet. So despite high literacy rates amongst adventurers, your average peasant probably can't read more than a few words.

There are no magic items or spells that do anything to improve crop yields on any spell list in the core game. Given the scarcity cycle that dominated European society with no real remission until approximately a hundred years after the time period your average D&D setting is apparently in, it can be assumed that D&D peasants are constantly sling-shotting back and forth between seasons of plenty and famines that shave off an extra 10% of their population. Cleric spells exist that can more directly solve the problem of food shortages, but they were built around satisfying the needs of a party of six. A single 5th level Cleric can sustain only 15 people, and Clerics of a lower level cannot create any food. While even 1st level Clerics can purify food and water several times a day, that amount is still fairly small, enough to feed maybe one family of six for a day. The way populations and class densities in the DMG work out, your average large population center is able to feed about 1% of its population on magic indefinitely, while towns of 2,000 or under are unlikely to have a Cleric who can cast Create Food or Water at all.

Transportation is not only not alleviated by the magical nature of D&D land, but made into a nightmare. Areas immediately surrounding population centers like hills and plains tend to be host to populations of powerful Good-aligned creatures, but this doesn't really help with the sort of long distance exchange of goods, ideas, and technologies that gives rise to the sort of advanced society that will develop the sorts of technology that get people living above subsistence level, because in order to get from one plains town to another you're probably going to have to cut through a marsh, or a forest, or some other "evil" wilderness location which is teeming with hydras or green dragons or other things which would require an adventuring party of at least level 5 to take care of, the sort of party an entire town of 5,000+ is unable to field more than four or five of at any given time. One caravan per thousand people is not nearly enough to sustain any kind of meaningful trade.

The highly individualistic nature of D&D land also makes things worse rather than better. It doesn't matter what your opinion on rewarding the exceptional people of the real world is, because in D&D being exceptional is exaggerated to such an absurd extreme that the policies of reality can no longer even begin to apply. An exceptional person in D&D Land is not an entrepreneur or a general or a statesman who uses their ability to lead or inspire or plan to lead large organizations. An exceptional person in D&D Land is literally a wizard who is, in terms of resources and military power, equal to a large organization all by himself. Whereas real life human society is held together by the fact that fundamentally none of us could ever create anything exceptional if we were the only sapient being on the planet, in D&D land every single ruler either is or has the protection of someone who can do exactly that a couple of times a day. And when that person dies or gets bored of the Prime Material Plane or decides he'd rather bind Succubi and have sex with them all day rather than risk injury and death (however temporary) fighting the minions of the Black Prince, the nation is getting gobbled up by another one that still does have the services of a high-level character (probably because they're ruled by one).

D&D Land is a world modeled after one of the most scarce and diseased times in European history, with the addition of horrifying monsters preventing trade and one-man militaries destabilizing nations and locking the world in an endless war in which the common people are lucky to be pawns.

Suddenly, the spellplague and Second Cataclysm seem downright optimistic, don't they?

There are a few solutions to this problem, not counting "just ignore it and have an inexplicably peaceful and stable world despite the fact the party regularly gets attacked by a pack of dire wolves when traveling between any two given population centers."

Option One: It's not a bug, it's a feature!*

Hey, Warhammer 40K is pretty popular, Dark Sun was a thing. Maybe a grimdark world where the lives of about 98% of the population are meaningless, painful, terrifying, and short is up your alley. Perhaps you'd like to play the role of epic heroes who will finally wake the world from its endless nightmare. Maybe you want to rise to be a morally ambiguous or downright evil ruler in this world. Maybe you want to play from the perspective of someone who's constantly holding at bay the horrors of an uncaring world, desperately mitigating problems that have no solution, to try and give just a few people lives worth living before something or other ends your reign and sends it all back to square one. Maybe you're just too lazy to change the mechanics of the world and don't much care about the longterm effects of your adventures so long as it all makes some sort of sense and you still get to save a kingdom and marry the princess. Just because I find that to be sort of depressing doesn't mean you're having fun the wrong way if you like it.

Option Two: The world's darkest hour

Just because the mechanics say that D&D Land is like this /right now/ doesn't mean it was always that way. Maybe Tiamat has finally defeated Pelor and unleashed a new age of monstrous horror upon the world, and now, with the light slowly but surely being stamped out by her hordes, the world has just one last chance for a band of heroes to rise up and turn the tide. Maybe the world has collapsed into a ruin in the wake of some catastrophe or internal decay that destroyed the mighty and more-or-less benevolent empire that had ruled before, and now the monsters have returned to the former empire's cracked and overgrown roads. Maybe the sudden increase in adventurers and monsters powerful as entire armies was the result of some recent magical event, and prior to this the world was pretty low-magic and normal.

Option Three: The frontier

Maybe the whole world isn't like this. Maybe most of the world is run by stable societies originally founded by organizations of good-aligned super humans who intentionally used their reign so that a totally normal guy with like three levels of aristocrat or something could call up an army of eighth-level adventurers and have them re-kill the invading armies of the Lich King before he could raze any cities. It is fundamentally true that every single modern nation is run by a civilian government despite the fact that the military leaders are very capable of throwing a coup whenever they want, and that doesn't happen because those leaders are morally opposed to overthrowing their own countries. There's no particular reason the same couldn't be true of people who are, single-handedly, the military, so long as the rulers of a country aren't stupid enough to treat them poorly and make sure they train up a successor before they leave.

In this scenario, there are constantly expanding rings of level-appropriate encounters as you reach the edges of civilization. At the edge of the ring, possibly constrained solely to lower planes and the like, are balors and ancient red dragons and other very high level monsters. In the next ring in, a group of high-level adventurers seeking to expand the borders of civilization (likely in exchange for some great reward from the heart of the enlightened world) have done away with all the balors and dragons, but there are still lots of werewolf lords and mariliths hanging about which the higher level guys have either no time or inclination to deal with, as they're too busy guarding the borders from the higher level threats in the next ring out. So instead a band of middle-high-level heroes comes in to assist the high-level ones in pushing out the lower tier threats. In the next ring, the CR ~15 threats are taken care of, but that leaves the local adventurer corps. with not time or manpower to handle the CR ~12 purple worms and cloud giants. And so on and so forth, until you get to the places where just about every goblin and orc have been chased into their holes and travel along major roads is as safe as driving on a freeway and the only heroes on hand are the ones who've retired or taken up government positions, and local law enforcement is seriously level 1 warriors and experts who hypothetically have the backup of level 20 wizards down in parliament, but who are so far removed from actual military threats that it usually doesn't matter.

Option Four: The frontline

The world is at war between two major powers. Like the frontier option, the heartlands of the good faction are totally stable and prosperous except for when the evil faction is screwing things up for them. The campaign takes place on the front lines, however, and in a plane-spanning superwar between all the forces of good and evil, the front lines can be in all sorts of exotic places. The heroes get their start because of the trickle-down effect. In a fight between an epic level archmage and an epic level archmage with a couple of mariliths on his side, the second one is going to win, even if those mariliths would pose little threat to the first archmage on his own. Similarly, each of those mariliths could be killed by a pack of friendly storm giants. And so and so forth down the CR ratings until we get to the point where the party is fighting a pack of enemy orcs as part of a massive army 90% of which is dedicated solely to preventing the archmages fighting the main battles from losing those battles for want of a nail. Ultimately, of course, the party will become the high-level heroes fighting the major battles and strike down the Lord of Terror once and for all. The advantage to this scenario is that it's very similar to the Lord of the Rings or Chronicles of Narnia or most of the other fantasy fiction that D&D is rooted in. The disadvantage is that it requires the party to be at least loosely affiliated with a chain of command that is, for 90% of the campaign, filled with people who are monumentally more powerful than you, and that your accomplishments seem kind of pathetic in a big picture sort of way for a long, long time. Fortunately, this is easily mitigated. Sure, from the grand strategic perspective saving a tiny kingdom from destruction in Prime Material Plane #28 is not even worth noticing and the high-level officers instead receive a report on the status of the battle for that entire world, but the people of the tiny kingdom are probably going to be pretty happy that they weren't overrun by an army of ten thousand orcs, ogres, and trolls.
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Post by Josh_Kablack »

There are no magic items or spells that do anything to improve crop yields on any spell list in the core game.
Here's one



As to your general point, I think the more interesting D&D games I've been a part of have involved settings with what are probably best termed "horrible necessities" as a major part of them.
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Post by Chamomile »

Oh, and pretty explicit, too. Fifth level Clerics of the right god and Druids can both cast it once per day, and they only need it cast once every half a mile for every full year. Does anyone happen to know how many people your average square mile of medieval farmland can sustain? I'm guessing a 1/3 bump around larger population centers isn't going to do much, and places that are small town or smaller are SoL anyway since they rarely have a high enough level Cleric or Druid to cast it in the first place. Still, that is actually a fairly grievous blow to my point about food supplies if nothing else.

Could you elaborate a bit more as to what you mean concerning "horrible necessities," though?

EDIT: Concerning the numbers, one casting of that spell can feed nearly a hundred extra people on average even in a medieval society, so long as you get nothing but farmland in the 320 acres affected by the spell. Further, any Druid or Cleric willing and able to cast this spell is likely to be easily able to reach farmland out to four or five miles, thus allowing them to feed tens of thousands of people. Now, the majority of Clerics don't have the Plants domain and the majority of Druids are probably not inclined to use their spells to feed a major population center anyway, but any town of over 2000 people is likely home to about 7 Druids and Clerics each. It is not unreasonable to posit that a large number of these towns will have at least one dude who is willing to go out once every fortnight or so and give them the ability to feed ginormous numbers of people.

Large towns are the sweet spot, especially if they just barely qualify. Population is low enough that they can have a hyperabundant amount of food while only requiring the caster to walk out about three miles and cast only once every week or so. Since the limitation is now on how far the Cleric or Druid is willing to walk or ride and how often they're willing to cast the spell, access to a horse and nothing else to burn 3rd level spell slots on means the community can get something like 300,000 people's worth of food so long as they have a 9 mile diameter of farmland to work with. Population of the actual town doesn't matter, either, but that's enough to feed any city and then some.

Safe to say that only some kind of classwide protest by Druids would get this sort of farming awesomeness shut down. Plant Clerics are probably not common enough to make it happen very often on their own. Of course, this is all rolling with the DMG's assumption that Druids are as common as Rogues in a city, which is kind of a ridiculous assumption.
Last edited by Chamomile on Sun Aug 12, 2012 12:44 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by MGuy »

If there are these people wandering around increasing crop yields I'd wager a lot of notoriety and power comes along with it. Also because its something that generates ca$h then recruitment drives are probably common. I'd imagine then tat there'd be more people who pointedly go out of their way to be able to cast that spell.
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Post by Chamomile »

That does raise the question as to whether or not they'll be able to defend themselves from people who want to seize the notoriety and power, though, especially since they regularly expend what is probably their only 3rd-level spell slot running the business. They'd need a goon squad capable of taking on whatever threats are level-appropriate to the area to back them up.
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Post by Endovior »

Well, since it's an 'over the next year' deal with a half-mile radius, an itinerant priest of agriculture is in a pretty sweet spot, since he's only spending his 3rd-level domain slot on keeping his shtick running, and can still carry around Blindness or Summon Monster III or something to threaten low-level thugs with; and furthermore can probably set up temples or shrines in convenient places near where he's working, and festoon them with Glyphs of Warding to give him a safe place to sleep. Not to mention that since he does the magic of 'making people not starve', he probably has lower-level converts who would very much like to keep him from getting stabbed in the face following him around.
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Post by Kaelik »

You are an idiot.

No one attacks a crop guy for his notoriety or power.

I don't get the reputation of "best doctor in the world" for killing the best doctor in the world. I get the reputation of "capable of killing the best doctor in the world."

The notoriety of killing crop guy is pretty shitty, and unless you are saying he has more money than any other Cleric who gets money from healing people or whatever, then his "power" is no more fungible than any other 5th level NPC.

So unless you think you can catch him on one of the four days he preps that spell, you are wasting your time.
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Post by Endovior »

Also, Plant Growth is generally a pretty nice spell to have for combat purposes, irrespective of it's economic value. It essentially creates a ridiculously huge area in which it takes a full-round action to move 5 feet... but which doesn't actually provide cover. In other words, it turns an arbitrary number of melee goons into archer fodder.
FrankTrollman wrote:We had a history and maps and fucking civilization, and there were countries and cities and kingdoms. But then the spell plague came and fucked up the landscape and now there are mountains where there didn't used to be and dragons with boobs and no one has the slightest idea of what's going on. And now there are like monsters everywhere and shit.
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Post by Chamomile »

Twenty or so hard-working crop guys can feed the entire kingdom of England circa 1400. You kill crop guy, you gain the notoriety of having knocked the local city from "we will never, ever even come close to running out of food" to "we are subsistence farmers who regularly die in droves to famine." That is a much greater threat than "now you will have to wait six weeks for that broken bone to heal instead of healer guy being able to fix like four injuries per day."
Also, Plant Growth is generally a pretty nice spell to have for combat purposes, irrespective of it's economic value. It essentially creates a ridiculously huge area in which it takes a full-round action to move 5 feet... but which doesn't actually provide cover. In other words, it turns an arbitrary number of melee goons into archer fodder.
Sure, but you can't use it twice from the same slot. The goal here is to hit the Druid after he's already cast the spell.
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Post by sabs »

Wait you think that increasing the yield of a farm by 30% will somehow allow 20 farmers to feed all of England? Even circa 1400s.
Are you insane?
That's an outrageously dumb thing to say.
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Post by Chamomile »

The crop guys are the Druids casting the spells, not the individual farmers.
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Post by Grek »

No, he said 20 'crop guys' ie. magical crop buffing druids are enough to cover all of England. You still need however many peasants to do the actual farming.

E:FB
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Post by OgreBattle »

It's mentioned in Warhammer Fantasy that student wizards do farming as summer jobs/internships, so the farmers of ulthuan have a fairly easy life.
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

We talked about this in another thread, but, 30% or even 300% higher crop yields than you'd expect in medieval Europe ain't gonna do shit.
http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?p=234440
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Post by kzt »

Kaelik wrote: I don't get the reputation of "best doctor in the world" for killing the best doctor in the world. I get the reputation of "capable of killing the best doctor in the world."
And then you get murdered by the huge number of really angry people. Yeah, not a good plan for becoming wealthy and famous.
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Post by Kaelik »

kzt wrote:
Kaelik wrote: I don't get the reputation of "best doctor in the world" for killing the best doctor in the world. I get the reputation of "capable of killing the best doctor in the world."
And then you get murdered by the huge number of really angry people. Yeah, not a good plan for becoming wealthy and famous.
Yes, that's the point. The reputation of "killed a guy who made crops grow" allows you to steal his power or notoriety, so no one would actually do it.
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Post by OgreBattle »

You don't need magic to produce better crop yields though, medieval peasants were just terrible, terrible farmers.
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Post by Winnah »

Technology is kind of essential for establishing the large scale monocultures required for sustaining big human population centres.

Various 'Shape' spells would be handy for irrigation.

Purify spells for reducing salinity.

Creation spells for fertiliser.

Even shit like wall of iron could be converted into ploughshares and various tools.

You're still looking at medium/high level magic users to supplement the requirements of setting up a large food bowl, even then, only on a small or local scale. It does not negate the need for well established ans supported infrastructure to support large scale agriculture.

Mind you, I could see how incorperating D&D character abilities into a campaign would be useful for a setting. Not just spell and magical items, but trained Ankhegs to till and fertilise farmland, the desire for diplomacy with critters like Myconids and shit like that. That all goes to shit once a Bullette or Manticore becomes the apex predator in an area though.
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Post by ...You Lost Me »

I think in a society advanced enough to learn high-level magic, the real crop yields would come from teaching people three-sister farming or crop cycling or not using monocultures.

The spell would probably be less important than a farmer's almanac and the proper teaching tools.
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Post by FatR »

Of course DnD land doesn't have to suck. Tomes make a number of assumptions based on faulty knowledge of history or "we like it this way" to make it suck. You're blindly quoting most of them. (For starters, 1400s in Western Europe were the time of unprecedented plenty, and in general peasants in High Medieval European countries had better, if less diverse, food than the great majority of the world's population right now - their problem was inability to store large amounts of food for years or procure/transport said amounts rapidly, so bad harvests still caused famines, if you wish to eliminate famines, you need to think on improving storage and distribution in the short term, and on curbing the population growth, which, if left unchecked, will inevitably cause a distopia/collapse regardless of how effective your food production is, in the long term.) Tippyverse's magical singularity and resulting post-scarcity society is the actual result of extrapolating a setting from 3.5 rules.

That said, the higher expected power level of a PC party grows, the harder it is to combine "a setting that's good to live in" and "a setting that's cool to adventure in". Shit you're dealing with becomes just too hardcore to leave majority of the population untouched. Particularly if you return to the setting again and again, instead of fixing it in one go. To think about of it, all three of my recent homebrew settings/campaings involved a fall of the currently dominant civilization by a magical world war with magical nukes (or at least said civilization being pushed to the brink of it) or dealing with its consequences.
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Re: D&D Land doesn't [i]have[/i] to suck

Post by FatR »

Speaking of factual corrections:
Chamomile wrote:Faerun used to be a nice place to live. The terrible villains resigned themselves to skulking in the shadows, occasionally lashing out at the world, and always they were turned back by a party of intrepid heroes, usually including a scimitar-wielding Drow.
No. In 3.X you already had shit like an army of ogres and giants and whatever setting half of Amn on fire, or bad guys rampaging through the Dales with a measure of success. Sure, 95% of evil plots were shot down in early stages and bad guys had a tendency to mostly do bad things to each other. But half of the continent was still ruled by outright assholes and most "good" lands suffered at least one significant invasion per generation, and then there were gods dicking around, sometimes with devastating results.
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Post by Korgan0 »

FatR wrote:Of course DnD land doesn't have to suck. Tomes make a number of assumptions based on faulty knowledge of history or "we like it this way" to make it suck. You're blindly quoting most of them. (For starters, 1400s in Western Europe were the time of unprecedented plenty, and in general peasants in High Medieval European countries had better, if less diverse, food than the great majority of the world's population right now - their problem was inability to store large amounts of food for years or procure/transport said amounts rapidly, so bad harvests still caused famines, if you wish to eliminate famines, you need to think on improving storage and distribution in the short term, and on curbing the population growth, which, if left unchecked, will inevitably cause a distopia/collapse regardless of how effective your food production is, in the long term.) Tippyverse's magical singularity and resulting post-scarcity society is the actual result of extrapolating a setting from 3.5 rules.

That said, the higher expected power level of a PC party grows, the harder it is to combine "a setting that's good to live in" and "a setting that's cool to adventure in". Shit you're dealing with becomes just too hardcore to leave majority of the population untouched. Particularly if you return to the setting again and again, instead of fixing it in one go. To think about of it, all three of my recent homebrew settings/campaings involved a fall of the currently dominant civilization by a magical world war with magical nukes (or at least said civilization being pushed to the brink of it) or dealing with its consequences.
The High Middle ages are generally held to be around the 1100's and 1200's, not the 1400's. The 1100's and the 1200's coincided with a long period of excellent farming weather, technological innovations, and relative peace, resulting in things like the first universities and all the stuff that the middle ages is known for, the vast majority of which happened before the 14th century, which in turn was primarily known for lots of people dying, mostly of famine and plague. Things started to get better after that, but then we're way beyond medieval stylings and into the renaissance.
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Post by Prak »

Chamomile wrote:Then 4e rolled around and the spellplague hit, burning half the setting to the ground.
This should read But everything changed when the Spellplague hit.
Someone pass the lube to Greyhawk and Eberron, surely one of them is to be similarly decimated during the run of NEXT.
In seriousness, references to anal rape should probably be omitted when this essay is published anywhere that isn't the Den.
Possibly the worst part of all this is that D&D Land, the world we get just by examining the mechanics and genre assumptions of D&D without creating any specific setting details to go with it, the base template from which all original D&D settings are created, that land is in worse shape than even the post-apocalyptic nature of the majority of D&D's official settings, with possibly the exception of Athas.
This should probably read: "Possibly the worst part of all this is that D&D Land, the world we get just by examining the mechanics and genre assumptions of D&D without creating any specific setting details to go with it, the base template from which all original D&D settings are created, is a land which is in worse shape than even the post-apocalyptic nature of the majority of official D&D settings, possibly excepting Athas."
Plant Clerics are probably not common enough to make it happen very often on their own.
Why not? Every major real world pantheon had a god of fertility/agriculture/the harvest who in D&D Land would have Plant as a domain, Demeter, Bolon Ts'akab, Chicomecoatl, Hapi, Inari, Tu Di Gong, etc. I don't think it's at all unreasonable to expect every major populated region to have a decent number of Clerics with the Plant domain, who travel around and cast Plant Growth. Even if a given village doesn't, the guy who actually owns that land is probably living in the nearest city and can send his Plant Priests out to ensure the fertility of the land. Maybe as part of each settled, agrarian culture's Harvest Festival a bunch of friendly druids and nature priests get together and run around the area controlled by their (official or unofficial) employer and cast Plant Growth a few times. Hell, three people go and cast Plant Growth together, and a half mile radius of farmlands has it's growth potential doubled, assuming you let the spell stack. It's really only the very out of the way, independent settlements that need to really worry whether they know anyone with the ability and inclination to cast the spell.
Edit: I would also point out that if the Plant Priest has even one more point of Wisdom than is absolutely necessary for casting Plant Growth, he can actually do it twice a day, or once, and still cast SM3, and every cleric who can use Plant Growth can also purify 5 cubic feet of food* five times a day, for 25 cubic feet. Even if that's apples, that's a lot of apples. For reference a box of 25# of apples is like 4.5 cubic feet, and that's apples on egg carton like sheets. If it was literally just a 4.5 cu ft. crate of apples, that's easily 40-50#. If it's grain, that's even better. Hell, all the clerics can cast Purify Food and Drink. It would not be particularly unreasonable for the all the clerics in a town to get together once a week or whatever and all cast Purify Food and Drink on the town's fruit storage or once month and cast it on the silo.


*I actually am not sure I did that right. Is it Caster Level(1 cu. foot), ie, CL 5 is (5) 1 foot cubes, or Caster Level (Cubic Feet), ie, CL 5 is 5 cubic feet?
Last edited by Prak on Sun Aug 12, 2012 11:23 am, edited 2 times in total.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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Post by FatR »

Korgan0 wrote: The High Middle ages are generally held to be around the 1100's and 1200's, not the 1400's. The 1100's and the 1200's coincided with a long period of excellent farming weather, technological innovations, and relative peace, resulting in things like the first universities and all the stuff that the middle ages is known for, the vast majority of which happened before the 14th century, which in turn was primarily known for lots of people dying, mostly of famine and plague.
Egh, mixed up High and Late Middle ages, thanks for the correction.
Korgan0 wrote:
Things started to get better after that, but then we're way beyond medieval stylings and into the renaissance.
Things got better soon after mass dieout from Black Death (in fact, in large part thanks to resulting underpopulation, just like quality of life in China was the best in the first 100 years or so after every successive recovery from collapse) and I said "1400s", not "1300s". By 1500s, on the other hand, things got worse again, leading into one of the darkest, most violent periods in European history, with a massive economic crisis kickstarting a vicious religious schism, which led to overall rise in fanaticism and supersition, which escalated wars and conflicts all across Europe.
Last edited by FatR on Sun Aug 12, 2012 11:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by tussock »

Late-14th works a touch better economically and socially, post-plague is right for any other post-apocalypse setting as well (post-monster in D&D). Here's some of my economic notes.
[*]Unskilled labour should be paid 2sp/day, master craftsmen should profit 3sp/day, and skilled merchants earn up to 5sp/day, so Craft and Profession skills profit about d20+mods in sp/week, and unskilled fits as a default.

[*]Cut room and meal prices by a factor of 3 or 4 at the low end, unless it's festival time or you're renting a room at the hell-mouth. Most weapons and armour are just slightly overpriced, about 150% of average (assuming high quality weapons), so feel free to discount a little as appropriate. A few things like posh frocks are vastly too cheap. Chickens are half price.
[*]Certain items are anachronistic, and priced to suit. Full plate and a few weapons are about 10x the price they settle to when common, along with some other gear. As a campaign note, very few people use the expensive stuff, because it doesn't really exist yet.

[*]Traps and poisons are just as stupidly priced as you'd expect. Divide by 1000 or so.

[*]Iron should only be 2cp/lb at most. Wall of Iron is still a crime, in that one Wizard can make more Iron in a year than all the foundries in Europe combined, but as Wizards don't exist that's fine.

[*]Spellcasters make far too much money casting spells, there's only a handful of them can replace more than one or two days of unskilled labour, spell level x caster level in sp at the most, not 100x that.

[*]A king's ransom is about 300,000gp, or 750 pounds of gold.
That thing with how the monsters are held back? They're not. There are literally goblins stealing people's children in every villiage in the world, ruined temples and buried cities full of undead, and sometimes dragons take offence and murder everyone for miles around. But the economy is running hot and there's food surpluses from dried dinosaur carcases lying around all over the place, so there's heaps of well-fed orphan kids playing adventurer in the most fortified cities (where the wererats and doppelgangers roam).

The only reason society isn't post-scarcity is because everything gets broken by unfathomable monster hordes and assorted magical apocalypses at least once a generation. But no one really cares, because the harder life gets the more high level folk there are running around rebuilding it all again. If the Orcs get too close again the King himself will come and kill them all like he promised.

Why is 90% of the population a 0-level nobody? That's Devil-talk. What are you, some sort of Sorcerer?

Why do NPC classes exist? They don't. That's bad rules. Tear that shit out of your books and set it on fire. Fighters are the Royalty. Clerics are the Cardinals. Paladins are the high inquisitors. Rogues are the Bankers. Wizards are the stories you tell your children to scare them (monsters are real, but no one believes in Wizards). Druids are the Wardens of the old fairie. Bards are fucking Rock Stars, singing tall tales about Wizards. Monks are crazy Prophets living in caves to be closer to the heavens (or hells, or the eternal office job). It is absolutely a meritocratic action-movie society full of innocent bystanders and recklessly violent morality.
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