3E Leadership and Nation-Building

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sun Oct 21, 2012 6:37 pm

Okay, so. Say that you were an core/SRD-only 3rd Edition D&D non-gestalt primary spellcaster and/or primary psion. You are subject to WBL and experience points limits of your level. Red Wizard is allowed. Using the difference engine to trick out your class and level build is not allowed. The rogue bonus feats can't be used to snag epic-level feats.

No planar binding, simacrulums, polymorph any object, or other any game effects that put more than one of a permanent tokens on the board are allowed. The only extra token-granting expansion option. Crafting magical items are allowed, but the only customized items you can use are slotless items, non-appropriate slot items, and spell completion/trigger spells that function more-or-less like the ones in the core rulebooks.

The only exception to the above rule is Leadership, which you MUST take at character level 6. You can customize any followers or cohorts (or any other limited extra character tokens you get) however you like. The only people allowed to take Leadership however is yourself and only non-cohort followers granted from Leadership.

Your mission, if you choose to accept it: You will lay the building blocks for your kingdom-to-be for maximum economic and military efficiency before accounting for non-player-controlled events like immigration and trade pacts. You can prepare for them (like having a comprehensive health care and education policy to woo migrants) but you can't a priori assume the behavior of people who aren't instantiated by tokens you control. So that also means you can't start this exercise having charmed, dominated, or even diplomatized someone not already covered by your character resources.

What would your character look like at levels 7, 11, 15, and 19? You can switch up your character builds between levels.

Yes, this thread's title assumes that the majority of your nation-building power -- or at least your ability to project your power -- would be coming from Leadership. If you find some better way to get this power then do so; but you still must take Leadership.

Mistborn · Post by **Mistborn** » Sun Oct 21, 2012 6:56 pm

Hasn't this already been done on GiantITP where a wizard creates a bunch of traps of create food/water and cure disease and ushers in a post scarcity future.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sun Oct 21, 2012 6:58 pm

"but the only customized items you can use are slotless items, non-appropriate slot items, and spell completion/trigger spells that function more-or-less like the ones in the core rulebooks."

Directly prevents "I make custom 'traps' of fabricate that look exactly like custom items of infinite use fabricate but cost 3% of the price for some reason."

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sun Oct 21, 2012 6:59 pm

Well, this thread was more prompted by me reading Complete Warrior while riding on an exercise bike. I know it's not really big news (and it was pointed out in the Complete Warrior review thread from about 8 years back) but I still think that it's fascinating that it'd be cheaper to outfit a first-level sorcerer or wizard with a wand of magic missiles and three fireball scrolls than a typical armored mounted knight.

So then you get into weird thought experiments like 'well, what if you had some kind of feat or geegaw that let you use your caster level for a magic missile wand' and stuff like that. Of course the problem is that it's still small potatoes for a high-level caster, but for a high-level caster with a bunch of eager minions it'd be something that's worth a second look.

Mistborn · Post by **Mistborn** » Sun Oct 21, 2012 7:20 pm

Well for killing fools with first level wands I recommend wands of Power Word Pain.

Scrolls of Fireball are still good for sweeping mooks though.

I remember from a thread somewhere that a 10 man squad of 6th level sorcerers could devastate a sizable army before they they even got into bow range. Sort of like that scene in WoT where Rand's army of male channelers is set lose for the first time.

edit
you can also make staves of low level spells and they don't cost any more than wands. This is a useful thing to consider when you're kitting out your minions.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sun Oct 21, 2012 7:44 pm

Lord Mistborn wrote:Well for killing fools with first level wands I recommend wands of Power Word Pain.

Scrolls of Fireball are still good for sweeping mooks though.

I remember from a thread somewhere that a 10 man squad of 6th level sorcerers could devastate a sizable army before they they even got into bow range. Sort of like that scene in WoT where Rand's army of male channelers is set lose for the first time.

edit
you can also make staves of low level spells and they don't cost any more than wands. This is a useful thing to consider when you're kitting out your minions.

The point is that you aren't trying to make followers who can kill low level scum, you are trying to make followers that matter.

So for that, having like 30 Wizard 1s who can use your CL 20 Wand of Fireball at CL 20 is a pretty damn big deal for dealing with real opposition, but having them cast Power Word Pain, or use a stave at CL 1 is not.

Mistborn · Post by **Mistborn** » Sun Oct 21, 2012 8:02 pm

Kaelik wrote:The point is that you aren't trying to make followers who can kill low level scum, you are trying to make followers that matter.

So for that, having like 30 Wizard 1s who can use your CL 20 Wand of Fireball at CL 20 is a pretty damn big deal for dealing with real opposition, but having them cast Power Word Pain, or use a stave at CL 1 is not.

I think your misreading the OP what I think Lago is talking about is how can you use your leadership minions for nation building. So having your followers being really good at killing low level scum matters.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sun Oct 21, 2012 8:20 pm

Lord Mistborn wrote:I think your misreading the OP what I think Lago is talking about is how can you use your leadership minions for nation building. So having your followers being really good at killing low level scum matters.

Your mission, if you choose to accept it: You will lay the building blocks for your kingdom-to-be for maximum economic and military efficiency before accounting for non-player-controlled events like immigration and trade pacts.

Killing people is only an aspect of the challenge. Obviously if you can find some rule usage that makes your minion punch way above your weight class militarily you should go for it -- but if your tricked-out minion can only blast marginally better at the cost of other areas useful for nation-building (for instance, being able to frickin' scribe books) then it's not worth it.

My personal hazy contention makes me think that you'd get more bang for your buck with a horde of psions than a horde of wizards or clerics due to how augmentation works. But I might also be wrong. DEAD WRONG.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sun Oct 21, 2012 8:35 pm

At 7th level, not being a Charisma caster is a sucker's game. If you are a generally nice guy and doing nation building type stuff it is trivially easy to get a +6 to your leadership value for followers. If you can come up with a +6 Charisma modifier (you can), then you're looking at having a 5th level follower - which is basically a second Cohort. At higher levels, that advantage gets sidelined a lot - followers max out at level 6 and our 17th level Leader can max out the chart with a Charisma of 14 (which he could have for pocket lint even if he started with a Charisma of 8).

-Username17

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sun Oct 21, 2012 8:47 pm

So for your 6th-level followers, you would want to have some kind of CHA-based character so that they could have 5th-level cohorts themselves?

K · Post by K » Sun Oct 21, 2012 9:36 pm

Kaelik wrote:
Lord Mistborn wrote:Well for killing fools with first level wands I recommend wands of Power Word Pain.

Scrolls of Fireball are still good for sweeping mooks though.

I remember from a thread somewhere that a 10 man squad of 6th level sorcerers could devastate a sizable army before they they even got into bow range. Sort of like that scene in WoT where Rand's army of male channelers is set lose for the first time.

edit
you can also make staves of low level spells and they don't cost any more than wands. This is a useful thing to consider when you're kitting out your minions.
The point is that you aren't trying to make followers who can kill low level scum, you are trying to make followers that matter.

So for that, having like 30 Wizard 1s who can use your CL 20 Wand of Fireball at CL 20 is a pretty damn big deal for dealing with real opposition, but having them cast Power Word Pain, or use a stave at CL 1 is not.

Gah, Wands of Power Word: Pain is the worst idea ever. Killing your enemies several rounds after they killed you is a recipe for failure.

K · Post by K » Sun Oct 21, 2012 9:44 pm

Honestly, filling your Leadership slots with a bunch of Wizard spies/saboteurs is going to get you a lot more power than filling it with mercenaries designed to kill tiny tots.

Blackmailing and tricking other people into fighting your battles for you is far more effective than fielding a tiny army of no consequence.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sun Oct 21, 2012 9:45 pm

K wrote:Honestly, filling your Leadership slots with a bunch of Wizard spies/saboteurs is going to get you a lot more power than filling it with mercenaries designed to kill tiny tots.

Do go on.

Sashi · Post by **Sashi** » Sun Oct 21, 2012 10:59 pm

Lago PARANOIA wrote:No planar binding, simacrulums, polymorph any object, or other any game effects that put more than one of a permanent tokens on the board are allowed.

So undead creation is out? Because an item of Animate Dead 1/day with a command word trigger has incredible utility.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sun Oct 21, 2012 11:04 pm

I don't have anything against extra token instantiation on principle, but for the purpose of this exercise it's just that it usually ends up regressing to 'and by the way, you have 1,000 extra skeletons in your chain of command for almost free'. It's not an infinite loop, but it's too much of a discussion derail I feel.

Mistborn · Post by **Mistborn** » Sun Oct 21, 2012 11:12 pm

You could limit undead to what you and your bros can actually control. I don't think that's that many since that's a fairly limited number without cheese. 4/hd level of what people make themselves and 1/hd level of rebuked stuff if they're a cleric and can rebuke.

sabs · Post by **sabs** » Sun Oct 21, 2012 11:52 pm

wouldn't a bunch of guys with wands of color spray be better than wands of power word pain?

Mistborn · Post by **Mistborn** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 12:18 am

sabs wrote:wouldn't a bunch of guys with wands of color spray be better than wands of power word pain?

The reason that I chose PWP is that a single charge is almost guaranteed death for for anything with less 35 HP. It also forces Concentration checks to cast spells that can be failed a low levels.

A wand of magic missile only disables a standard 1hd chump 25% of the time. A wand of Color Spray deals with 1hd chumps 60% of the time but only at very close range. A wand of an orb spell only kills fools ~30 of the time. One casting of PWP and the target is going to die heck the first round disables of better 1hd mooks 33% of the time the first time it ticks.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 12:25 am

sabs wrote:wouldn't a bunch of guys with wands of color spray be better than wands of power word pain?

Wands of Color Spray offer a save, and that save is tied to the minimum Int to cast that level spell. So where a level 1 Wizard usually has a save of 14-16, the DC for the wand is 11.

I would say that you also are going to lose minions having them try to get in and hit the guys with a coup de grace, but you are also going to lose guys with Power Word Pain, since they don't go out in one round.

All of that is rather silly though, because Water Orc Barbarians are really the best level 1 followers to kill level 1 things. You want your level 1 followers to do more than that.

Mistborn · Post by **Mistborn** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 12:35 am

Kaelik wrote: All of that is rather silly though, because Water Orc Barbarians are really the best level 1 followers to kill level 1 things. You want your level 1 followers to do more than that.

If you making level 1 followers to kill level 1 things you probably want level 1 sorcerer/wizards with precocious apprentice and Fiery Burst for infinite mini-fireballs. PWP though is like I said dealing an average of 35 damage to targers with 50 hp or less. That's probably the maximum you're going to get from a 1st level character.

fectin · Post by **fectin** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 12:37 am

I'd go dread necromancer, partly because all the poorly defined cheese is necromancy, but more importantly because necromancy lets you build perpetual motion machines. Civilization needs fresh water? Skeleton-powered pumps. Need machinery for your metropolis? Haunt shift has you covered. Want roads and infrastructure? Zombie work gangs will get you there. That's not even high level stuff.
Your minion doesn't even matter. Get a beguiler diplomancer to smooth everything over; make sure you have a tiny cleric for defiling or whatever, get some wizards, because wizards make everything better.

quanta · Post by **quanta** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 1:47 am

If you making level 1 followers to kill level 1 things you probably want level 1 sorcerer/wizards with precocious apprentice and Fiery Burst for infinite mini-fireballs. PWP though is like I said dealing an average of 35 damage to targers with 50 hp or less. That's probably the maximum you're going to get from a 1st level character.

It requires hitting AC, but I think you can come close to 35 on a hit even in core with just a 32 pb human fighter. You just need to figure out a way to afford a war trained mount and a lance. The starting gold isn't enough to get the job done the obvious way, but I'm sure it's not terribly hard to overcome that hurdle. Make some profession checks for a few weeks or something. Spirited charge for (1d8+6)*3=31.5 on average (pretend the rules for mounted charges work somehow). I'm sure if you step outside of core, beating 35 wouldn't be too hard.

It also won't take an average of 10 rounds to get that damage across and can't be countered by a 1st level cleric with a wand of CLW.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 2:00 am

Lord Mistborn wrote:
Kaelik wrote: All of that is rather silly though, because Water Orc Barbarians are really the best level 1 followers to kill level 1 things. You want your level 1 followers to do more than that.
If you making level 1 followers to kill level 1 things you probably want level 1 sorcerer/wizards with precocious apprentice and Fiery Burst for infinite mini-fireballs. PWP though is like I said dealing an average of 35 damage to targers with 50 hp or less. That's probably the maximum you're going to get from a 1st level character.

I'm pretty sure I can create a level 1 build that heightens a spell to 9th level, and therefore uses that to summon Large Elementals. I think I'll take that over Power Word Pain, the mighty spell that allows you to kill the Ogre three rounds after you die.

Orca · Post by **Orca** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 2:04 am

IMO you could use some diplomancers for force projection more than wizards or whatever. Bard 2/Binder 1 should do the trick. Call them your Voices.

Spies are also necessary. At level 5 druids get wild shape which makes them excellent for this, but you could also use some even more disposable level 2 beguilers or rogues. Probably changelings for quick magical disguise. Call them your Eyes.

That leaves your level 1 & 4 followers for handling any necessary fighting outside your reach. Call them your Hands. I have no idea how much money you have available to equip them, any clues? Also, how much distance and people do you need to protect?

For your glorious leader, I'd go with an artificer in this scenario.

Tumbling Down · Post by **Tumbling Down** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 2:05 am

So, where does Thrallherd fit in? Is it allowed? Do you still have to take Leadership?

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3E Leadership and Nation-Building

3E Leadership and Nation-Building

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