The Gaming Den

(Former title: "Nice Things a Fighter could theoretically have")

Foxwarrior wrote:Avoraciopoctules/RadiantPhoenix: I could do with some suggestions as to what new gamechanging things a "mundane" character can do once they're already Wuxian Kool-Aid Bourne. The theme of mundane in this game is that their powers blend together well (ie, if you can move through walls and you can move as a minor action, you can move through walls as a minor action), while spells are discrete countable resources (like D&D spells).

I'm afraid of making a thread about it because it's so likely to be slightly derailed into the boring and extremely overdone wizard vs fighter discussion.

Okay, so first off, let's try not to turn this into casters v. noncasters debate.
We are talking about a setting where you have wizardy spellcasters and kung-fu dudes who can walk through walls and set their FIGHTING SPIRIT literally ablaze to burn their enemies.

But what are some thematic things that would be useful outside of battle, enough to change the game?

1. Chakras (Poke people in weird places to do stuff. Heal illnesses, affect minds, give good or bad status effects)
If you can massage someone's forehead to erase the last five minutes of their memory, that changes the game. If you can give your minions super-strength at the cost of long-term muscle damage, that maybe changes the game.

Ideas?

Super-smarts is something that badass normals are allowed to have. Even if that doesn't mean inventions if the Fighter had good knowledge skills he would know what he was fighting and if he could make spellcraft checks he could know what spells are coming his way. It doesn't even have to be super intelligence as we know, maybe just superior instinct, experience or half remembered stories he heard at the pub.

Similarly charisma could reasonably be the wheel house of the noncasters. It makes sense that if Wizards have to spend all their time studying and Clerics are religious fanatics, the party will need someone normal to talk to the NPCs. I don't know how you'd handle bards if you went this route though.

One other intersting idea is to just roll everything the Rogue can do into the Fighter. That way you don't have to spilt the fantastic things a mundane can do between two classes. If it makes you feel better the Rogue was the last class added to OD&D IIRC. I have also played in a 1e game where they did this, worked out fine and gave the fighter things to do other than smash or stab.

OD&D started with:

Fighter
Magic-User
Cleric
Thief
Dwarf
Elf

'Rogue' is about as original a D&D class as it gets.
The way to fix fighters is to make them 6 or 8 skill point class, with options to tailor their 'class skills'

Craft skills, knowledge skills, the ability to do charisma/leadership stuff. The fighter is experienced. He's seen things, and done things, and travelled. He picks up profession skills, etc.

Super-smarts are acceptable, yes, but "know statblock" is an ability that doesn't stack very well, and "solve problem" is an ability I don't want characters to have.

Talking is an okay schtick for noncasters only if the mages have other things to do during social interactions.

I've already (sort of) rolled the Rogue, Fighter, Monk, Expert, Skirmisher, Scout, etc together, don't worry.

I'm down for fighters getting super-strength. It -is- thematic. I mean, Roland blew a hole in a ridge with a sword when he was mortally wounded. Beowulf had the strength of 30+ men.

And theoretically, a fighter can swing, like, 35 STR in D&D 3.x if he whores for it.

But it shouldn't be an amalgamation of magic items and all. It should be -him-, getting abilities that say shit like "Yes, you can pull the castle's gate off by yourself."

The problem with just getting bigger numbers (bash down doors, then bash down castles, then bash down mountains, then bash down planets) is

1: That it's kind of repetitive.

2: The strength of 100 men is something you could obtain by getting 100 men. The power to make gates can't be obtained with 100 people casting dimension door.

sabs wrote:OD&D started with:

Fighter
Magic-User
Cleric
Thief
Dwarf
Elf

'Rogue' is about as original a D&D class as it gets.
The way to fix fighters is to make them 6 or 8 skill point class, with options to tailor their 'class skills'

I probably messed up on the edition nomenclature, but the Thief was added in to the core books in '77. The '74 book had Fighters (or Fighting men, I can't recall), Wizards, Clerics, Elves, Dwarves and Halflings.

How much potential to change the setting do you want there to be?

If every kung fu master can selectively modify memories and turn mooks into credible threats, that's going to affect social dynamics. If that got toned down to the point where adventurers just have a general Amnesia Punch and healing powers that get used between encounters to remove some damage/poison/curses, that can still change things, but less dramatically.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Super Strength can be used for some pretty open-ended stuff, but only if you are willing to let your game look like a Popeye cartoon.

I got my first red box in 1982... so to me Thief has always been part of D&D.

Well, the most powerful caster types can raise the dead, make portals to anywhere they've been, call down fire from a kilometer around, temporarily convert people into their biographies, rewind time 6 seconds, concentrate on making it daytime, and more.

There are no mundane classes at that tier yet.

temporarily convert people into their biographies

Game On,
fbmf

Okay, so crazy acupressure mind control is viable. What else...

Alchemy should let people do pretty crazy stuff. You could even go hog wild and let people transmute stuff on the spot. The potions guy can turn lead into gold or copper to steel. He can invent inexplicable aquifer tablets which generate water when you pour water on them. All those could change the setting.

If there are demons or other spirits with crazy powers, the fighty types could learn those as martial arts. A high-level warrior could shoot beholder rays from their eyes and control chains by dancing, so they are basically a blue mage from Final Fantasy.

The ability to leverage their reputation for temporary favors?

"Yes you highness, my companions and I will help rescue your daughter, but we'll temporarily need riding gryphons and enchanted blades from the armory to do so."

fbmf wrote:

temporarily convert people into their biographies

Game On,
fbmf

It's like Agent Smith in the Matrix, but less powerful, they keep their original bodies, and with the potential for the mind seeds to turn against the original.

At least, that's what I'm guessing.

You know, despite your impassioned plea that this thread not devolve into a caster vs. noncaster debate, this thread's title is incredibly misleading.

I suggest changing it to 'mundane-flavored superpowers' or something if you don't want to risk a derail.

ok

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_su ... in_fiction might be a useful starting point.

It seems like you're throwing the baby out with the bath water on a few of these suggestions.

The strength or 30 or 100 men is pretty awesome (and heroic) rolled into ONE person.
The process shouldn't be 'oh that's lame' it should be 'but what ELSE can you do with that strempf?!'
Rip holes in reality with your bare hands? Jump a thousand feet into the air? Run at retarded speeds? Fall over and not be able to get back up?

Shit, just take a few notes from the Hulk. Then figure out where that sits as a balance point then work backward and forward from there.

Unless you specifically want Rock Lee suggestions for kung fu ninjamurai, different archetypes people would want to play should be isolated and built on.

If you just want kung fu ninjamurai, that's cool too. But when I read the intro I just assumed 'any mundane' with hidden croucho tiger as an example.

I know you don't want Wizards vs. Fighters XIII: This time it's even more pointless, but if you want ideas that are "new" and "gamebreaking" it would be useful to know what sort of abilities there are already in the game.

If you want any sort of role protection then mundanes have to be able to do something that other character choices can't. Maybe they get super resistances or other defences whereas magic is mainly offensive or something.

Red_Rob: Well, mundanes right now are faster (higher movement speeds, do things as immediate actions or otherwise screw with people out of turn), sneakier, and more perceptive than casters are. The ones a tier lower down (than the maximum) can already be built to run 70 miles per hour and/or do parkour between skyscrapers.

The (unfortunate, I guess) problem with giving mundanes hard role protection is that it consists of thinking of things that could plausibly be done by a person, and then declaring that only certain people can attempt it. The best you can do (while maintaining the essence of "mundanity" as I imagine it) is soft role protection, where anyone can attempt something like it, but only some people can do it with the greatest of ease.

codeGlaze: The thing is, getting a hundred men is an actual alternative that the player can choose. The fact that a hundred men have the strength of a hundred men is one of the niches such a force fills.

Unless reality has defensive stats (which might be amusing), ripping holes in reality with your fists sounds indistinguishable from a spell with a particularly enthusiastic somatic component.

Avoraciopoctules: Alchemy sounds like a type of magic. If it isn't, why can't mages mix chemicals together when provided with the correct recipe? Or is it that they can, but a mage takes several days to get one recipe right and a master chemist can brew the concoction they need in seconds? Hmm...

Beholder eye grafts could be good, and I do have a variety of items for people to use.

You guessed wrong about the spell; that would be implanting your biography into people. The spell converts people into words for easy concealed transport/imprisonment.

Foxwarrior wrote:The ones a tier lower down (than the maximum) can already be built to run 70 miles per hour and/or do parkour between skyscrapers.

The (unfortunate, I guess) problem with giving mundanes hard role protection is that it consists of thinking of things that could plausibly be done by a person

Seems like a bit of a disconnect there. Running 70mph and leaping between skyscrapers aren't really "things that can be done by a person", so don't let that tie you down too much. My point was more that if you decide that "physical" superpowers like Wuxia abilities and Charles Atlas superpowers can do certain things, make sure you don't then put in magic powers that can duplicate or obviate those things. Seems simple but easy to forget when dealing with magic.

So if "Mundanes" are faster in both movement and action speed than casters, don't put in teleportation, precognition or speed enhancing magic. Ensuring the power sets each have their own abilities noone else gets will go a long way to making sure noone seems like a spare wheel.

As regards abilties for "Mundanes", really any ability can be flavoured as coming from Inner Strength. Just look at any fighting game or DBZ - Energy blasts, flight, super strength or toughness, short range teleportation, breathing fire, body morphing and mind control have all been fluffed as stemming from intense training and mastering your inner consciousness. Kung Fu masters are attributed with practically the same powers as wizards in the source material, so go nuts.

Running 70 mph and leaping between skyscrapers aren't "things that can be done by a person", true, but running and leaping are.

Aww, but I especially like the things you can do with space and time warping magics. I'd rather toss out all midlevel mundane classes than toss out portal creation, really.

Red_Rob wrote:Kung Fu masters are attributed with practically the same powers as wizards in the source material, so go nuts.

Sounds like either Kung Fu masters or wizards could be trimmed with no serious damage.

I think mobility should be accessible to everyone. Instead of taking away powers like teleport and/or haste or what ever, allow each hero type to access their own version of it.

Maybe mundanes access it earlier and can use it at will, or more times. Maybe they access it lower at lower speeds/distances/etc and it grows with them (while still allowing them to use it in a more efficient manner and/or more times).

sabs wrote:I got my first red box in 1982... so to me Thief has always been part of D&D.

you failed to note OD&D. 1973-1976, requiring Chainmail and Outdoor Survival as well a the 3 books that came in the set:
-Men & Magic
-Monsters & Treasure
-Underworld & Wilderness Adventures.
white or wood grain boxes

1982, was Moldvay Basic, later known as B/X (Basic and Expert sets)

Holmes from 1977 didnt come in a red box.

Normal human to action movie level fighter schticks:

• Plan ambushes
• Detect and foil ambushes
• Control the amount of cover/concealment/camouflaue they and allies have relative to various enemies, even changing it mid action
• Have extra-tough defenses against various attack forms (parry sword with just a cloak, bare handed arrow catching, hardy enough to shrug off poisons, taking a bullet point blank only to have it mysteriously hit the unimportant part of the shoulder, shrugging off mind control, etc)
• Ignore or negate enemies' extra-tough defenses against various attack forms (punching the guy while he's busy parrying your sword, shoot an arrow that cannot be caught, etc)
• Exceptional strength that allows unusual weapons, great reach and minor battlefield alteration (bend bars, tip siege engine, etc)
• Exceptional mobility that allows unusual parts of the battlefield to be claimed. (pole vaulting over the moat, free climbing the castle walls, swinging from chandeliers)
• Metagame strategic abilities to predict opponents and/or know the odds of various tactics and abilities' success.
• Reputation / Reknown / Physical presence that allows you to rally the troops, train peasants into a militia or recruit a horde with just a short montage.
• Ability to find weakpoints or structural flaws in structures or massively larger monsters.