Saxony wrote:To make this thread a somewhat different than its many ancestors, I'll ask the following question: How can we give people the non-magical heroes they want to play so much.... while dodging all the problems that come with it?
We're talking about games so of course we must give people what they want. I just wonder how we can do that.
Any thoughts?
Many, actually.
I myself have often found myself trying to think of ways to stretch the boundaries of Fighter relevance subtly, as opposed to just outright breaking what people want a Fighter to look like before we even get halfway through the level range. To that end, it seems like one thing that keeps coming up for me is the notion that you can often expand the elements in the world that a mundane ability can apply to without simply removing those elements from the world.
Basically, populating the world with interesting phlebotinum separate from your person that is best exercised through mundane prowess. Or, alternatively, introducing limits on wizard phlebotinum that can be countered through mundane prowess. Or simply digging around for as many things as possible that can get under the radar (for example, a seemingly psychic "danger sense" that lets you avoid snipers or granting yourself extra actions will generally be okay with the audience that wants to play "mundane" guys, while throwing a mountain will not be. Smashing people through a wall also seems to be something people will be okay with).
For example, being really good at taming, training, and riding things becomes more important when you can ride more fantastical things. Being able to forge things really well matters more when you have better phlebotinum to forge things out of. Having the power to wring the best performance out of a sword matters more if being able to swing a magic sword just right allows you to do more impressive magical shenanigans with it.
A few things that come to mind, in no particular order:
- Unlike in D&D, fliers are not terribly stable, and a few flaming arrows are good enough to make the griffin go tumbling to the ground. (Ex:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWatmDmKGDA). Moreover, it's not hard for you to become good at hitting things with a sword AND throwing javelins.
- In general, fighters can diversify to gain new tricks easily instead of having to constantly reinvest in the same trick to keep it relevant ( a core flaw with Fighters v Wizards in D&D before you even think about different conceptual space limitations )
- Etherealness is easier to counter by just using alchemical silver or cold iron (as in simply unenchanted iron) or something that's easily attainable. Whatever fits your setting.
- Ranged attacks from extreme range take substantial penalties to a point that trying to, say, have the giant eagles rain boulders down on people isn't terribly effective for things other than a bombardment. Perhaps simply being grounded and having a footing (or not) can affect accuracy. Maybe having non-perfect flight affects accuracy since you're constantly required to be moving. Maybe this just all applies to a sort of "Careful Aim" action which requires you to be still and carefully line up your shot that takes penalties if you don't have a stable footing. Spells don't get thrown accurately from 900 feet away and will scatter, perhaps like grenadelike effects.
- Teleportation is either short range, or involves actual gates being opened that just anyone can jump through (or pry open with a fairly easy to get alchemical item... kinda like the forensics guys prying open the portals in that crappy movie Jumper)
- Magic is somewhat toxic (kinda like how there's potion toxicity in the Witcher), and a more physically fit person can handle more buffs in their system (or gearing up like Iron Man) without experiencing awesome but not so beneficial side effects (which may or may not be backgrounds for things in the Monster Manual). As such, "can have more buffs or wear more magic items" is an ability that comes through on the list for the fighter guy. Sure, they might not be creating all the buffs themselves, but they can put more of them on and create more combinations and such. It's kind of a sneaky sidestep to get the more "mundane" types to be more magically relevant.
- Fighters need to be better at actually playing Basketball Defense. That is, making it so that they can actually interpose themselves between threats running by them 10 feet away... even without long reach. Letting them mess around with the action order or use reactive or readied actions better... that sort of thing.
- Simply take away the fact that wizards act really fast without breaking stride. I mean, seriously, we're talking about guys who are, in the space of 6 seconds, casting a number of complex spells, moving, still being fully defensive and evasive, and so forth. The timescale on which D&D wizards at mid-high levels act makes me think of this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDRP5JxITkI . Except, unlike Rita, they're running around and maintaining defensive stances (perhaps by doing Avatar The Last Airbender style martial dances). Instead, simply making a powerful spell slower, telegraph more (perhaps to the point that ambush is very difficult), and lower the mage's defenses -- all of which are the case in many media presentations of spellcasters -- would do a some good for giving the Fighter some room to breathe. Though that's not really a case of giving the Fighter extra capabilities within his conceptual space, it is a case of helping to even the score without really taking away the cool factor of wizards (indeed, the lead-up to a powerful spell is considered by some to be part of the cool factor).
- Introduce ways that mundane actions can influence the magic system, such as if you could simply start thinking in another language to foil a mind reader or misdirect a diviner by understanding what kinds of mundane things and actions leave a trail in the aether. Or even simply things like letting Link bat a ball of magic lightning back at Ganondorf in a glorified Tennis match.
- Phlebotinum that can be accessed via mundane actions. It makes a big difference if you can FORGE things out of orichalcum or magicite or if you can TAME fire elementals. That sort of thing.
- Play the mundane things as far as they can go. I mean, that sounds obvious but people often forget it. For example, an observant person might be just as good at tracking an invisible foe or disbelieving illusions via noticing discrepancies as True Seeing, or have such effective Sense Motive or forensic skills that they can basically read minds or divine actions.
- When you see a Fighter with a given type of weapon, armor, whatever, you generally have some sort of rational expectations as to what sort of a guy you're fighting. In D&D with spellcasters this is often not true. One thing I've sought to do in my own projects to level the playing field is to limit wizards a bit more to a point where you can conceive of their limitations (e.g. "A Beguiler" or "A Pyromancer") and then have indications of what they are that can give you rational expectations (for example, if they have a certain kind of catalyst or talisman, or if their skin is necrotic and they're wearing bone armor, or recognizing the stance of the Firebenders, or whatever). Basically, attaching things to their powers that give clues as to what their powers are without actually seeing all of their powers being used, rather than simply having them all come from just waving your hands. Though that's not really a case of giving the Fighter extra capabilities, it is a case of helping to even the score without really taking away the cool factor of wizards.
Lord Mistborn wrote:
ah who am I kidding release the trolls
I enjoy the idea of using trolls as the tactical equivalent of paratroopers by launching them from catapults and letting them regenerate on target.