What stories are impossible to tell in RPGs?

[Saxony]

...

The Vanilla Action Hero is the character of choice of innumerates who do not understand probability. And what they want out of the character type is literally impossible. What they want is a character who "beats the odds", which is literally and specifically the only character that no RPG can possibly support. When translated into a game, the character has to have an actual ability called "Odds Beating (Ex)" or something that genuinely changes the odds such that failure and death is almost or actually impossible. At which point of course, the character isn't really beating the odds anymore.

I thought this was an interesting quote. My skimming algorithm caught some keywords from the strong claims classification so I had to re-read the section just in case there was some juicy false claims going on so I could collect on the passive-aggressive fact-checking we all so enjoy here.

But I'd rather not have some sort of verbal contention. I think this quote could lead into an interesting discussion by itself. Therefore I'll frame this as a question.

The question: What characters or stories are impossible to produce in RPGs because of the characteristics of the medium (aside from the above).

For the sophists, here's some clarity: Impossible means impossible. Cannot ever happen even given infinite resources from any resource classification.

[Lokathor]

...you have a program that skims the forum for strong claims?

[Saxony]

Thanks for the laugh. But no, I have not made a program that skims this forum for strong claims.

I just make a lot of analogies between programming and human thought.

[Blade]

I disagree with Frank.

But to answer the question, I'm not sure that there are characters and stories you can't produce in RPG, but I think there are plenty that won't be interesting to play.

[hogarth]

If you can write a story about something, then you can have a Magical Tea Party RPG session on the same topic. That includes a story where someone "beats the odds".

[K]

You can't do the classic hero myth. This means that one person can't have some special power that makes him better than other people who are expected to go on adventures with him.

This means that stories like Harry Potter where he is a wizard who is better than other wizards he adventures with just can't work.

[Koumei]

If the game system is D&D4E? Most stories.

Oh, burn!

[Blade]

I can see why you wouldn't want that, but I don't see why you can't do it.

[Username17]

I disagree with Frank.

Do go on. Or are you arguing for the trivial case that if you play the game through a thousand times you have a 63% chance of at least once having someone make the thousand to one shot? Now go ahead and do that for when there are two thousand to one shots to be taken in a row (a 1 in a million chance) or eighteen (a 1 in a Septendecillion chance). Now we're in territory where to have even a perceptible chance of this every happening you'd have to replay the game until the heat death of the universe - and we haven't even scratched the surface of the ridiculous improbabilities people get away with in books and movies.

In a book, you can have a character successfully guess the flip of a coin, the roll of a die, or the landing of a roulette wheel. The random number generators don't have to be rigged in the story, because their outputs are by definition determined. That kind of thing is impossible to do in an RPG, because the random number generators are real and not determined. If you fudge them, the fudging is obvious, and the entire experience means nothing.

I would also add lots of other kinds of perfect guessing. In a book, a character can choose the "right path" randomly without access to any information, because the author actually knows what the right path is. At an RPG table, that information is in the MC's head, which means that the player can't guess perfectly without the MC saying something to the player and destroying the aesthetic.

In a book, the character doesn't know which suitcase has the missile codes and the reader doesn't know what suitcase has the missile codes in it either. But it is the author who is actually choosing which suitcase the character selects. And the author does know, even if the character does not. But in an RPG, the choice of what the character does is made by the player, and the player doesn't know shit. The player is the audience of the book example, rather than the author, meaning that they cannot use their authorial super information status to have the character make "lucky" guesses.

To an extent you can cover for this by fudging things behind the screen, but it requires quantum mazes and hidden "die rolls". And even then the feeling just isn't the same and cannot be.

-Username17

[Blade]

@Frank:

First of all, I consider that the Vanilla Action Hero doesn't beat the odds every time and just because he's the hero. Usually, if the hero beat the odds it's because:

1 Of his one superior ability (which can be something mundane he does terribly well), because the story leads to this ability being crucial to win or because the hero is clever enough to turn the situation into one where is superior ability will come into play.
2 His emotions (love, rage, etc.), his ideals or the resolution of some inner struggle giving him a sudden boost.
3 The cause he's fighting for is right, and so some deity (or just the universe) supports him.
4 Of a Deus Ex Machina or pure luck

If you see any other, please let me know.

Now let's see how to resolve this.
1. This one is easy. The story needs to be made in a way that this one superior ability will be needed.

2. Add situational modifiers/limit breaks/etc. that give the necessary boost to the character in such situations.

3. Similar to 2., the character can get a boost whenever the deity or the universe feels like it. For example, a Saint Seiya RPG could have a system where the character can get a huge boost when he's got very low HP, removes his armor, has lost at least one sense and gives a very long talk on the power of friendship and the fact that his cause is just.

4. This one is handled by many games, in the form of "Luck","Fate","Edge","Drama points" etc. These are mechanisms to let the player (or MC) fudge with the RNG within the system.
The "Longshot test" rule in Shadowrun is particularly good for letting any (lucky) character succeed at a seemingly impossible task (it's actually so good at it that it can lead to problems with high Edge characters).
The "Drama Points" of Buffy RPG are also a good example of such a mechanism.

As I said, I can understand that a game where the character can use his "Deus Ex Machina" ability to succeed at everything wouldn't be very fun to play, but it's at least possible.

[Juton]

You can't do the classic hero myth. This means that one person can't have some special power that makes him better than other people who are expected to go on adventures with him.

This means that stories like Harry Potter where he is a wizard who is better than other wizards he adventures with just can't work.

I would imagine the problem for most groups is that people don't like being weaker then their peers, or at a disadvantage. That's not always true though. If you could find a group that was OK with Harry always being a few levels ahead of them is there any other reason this wouldn't work?

[Vebyast]

You can't do the classic hero myth. This means that one person can't have some special power that makes him better than other people who are expected to go on adventures with him.

This means that stories like Harry Potter where he is a wizard who is better than other wizards he adventures with just can't work.

Simple counterexample: flip everything around. One person runs a character, everybody else throws conflicting xanatos gambits at that one character.

Which leads me to my real point: it all depends on how you define "RPG". If Magical Tea party is an RPG, then anything is possible. Since every possible RPG is simply a constrained MTP, if you want to include or exclude a particular character, character archetype, or in fact any set of characters at all, all you have to do is set things up right.

[hogarth]

That kind of thing is impossible to do in an RPG, because the random number generators are real and not determined.

There are a lots of RPGs that don't use a random number generator at all, as you well know.

--

If Magical Tea party is an RPG, then anything is possible.

It's not true that "anything is possible", because fiction itself has limits. Let me try to rephrase the essence Frank's comment in terms I would agree with:
[*]There is a maximum number of amazing coincidences that you can put into a story because you reach a point where the coincidences cease to be amazing.

[Desdan_Mervolam]

Simple counterexample: flip everything around. One person runs a character, everybody else throws conflicting xanatos gambits at that one character.

So, like Prequel?

Edit: I should acknowledge that this is not actually what Prequel is, since there have been times where Katia refuses point blank to go with the audience consensus. But that sort of thing, if pursued earnestly, would be about what I am imagining here.

[Username17]

That kind of thing is impossible to do in an RPG, because the random number generators are real and not determined.

There are a lots of RPGs that don't use a random number generator at all, as you well know.

For this purpose, the "random number generator" doesn't have to be a literal number generator. Any decision point where the inputs are unknown will do, even in Amber Diceless or something similarly stupid. It could be something as simple as two doors that the player chooses between.

In a book, the character can choose between two doors where one leads to the Lady and the other leads to the Tiger and have neither the character nor the audience know which is which. And they can do this and still open the door that leads to the story continuing towards its conclusion. In an RPG, if the audience doesn't know which door is which, then the doors are either quantum ladies, where really neither door had a tiger behind them or the character is actually going to be eaten by a tiger half the time. For a game to deliver characters surviving deadly scenarios, the scenarios themselves have to be "not actually deadly", which rather defeats the point.

The information about where the lady and the tiger are is fundamentally on a different side of the DM's screen from the character in an RPG, while it is on the same side of the DM's screen in a book or movie. That's a major difference and it severely and importantly limits the amount of happenstance and characters getting by on the skin of their teeth which can occur.

-Username17

[Vebyast]

If Magical Tea party is an RPG, then anything is possible.

It's not true that "anything is possible", because fiction itself has limits. Let me try to rephrase the essence Frank's comment in terms I would agree with:
[*]There is a maximum number of amazing coincidences that you can put into a story because you reach a point where the coincidences cease to be amazing.

Perhaps my definition of RPG is a bit more broad than yours, then. If you start with the traditional dungeon-master-and-one-party-with-player-character-per-player structure, then yes, there may exist patterns which cannot be fun in that structure. However, if you change the original assumptions, you may find things which are still RPGs but which can include those patterns without becoming un-fun. All you're doing is finding a framework which explains the coincidences without damaging the concept that required them, or which makes the problems otherwise manageable. For example, the idea I laid out above makes a Super Speshul character not un-fun by handing him to the DM and having players control more nebulous entities.

[hogarth]

The information about where the lady and the tiger are is fundamentally on a different side of the DM's screen from the character in an RPG, while it is on the same side of the DM's screen in a book or movie.

There are RPGs with no DM, too.

Perhaps my definition of RPG is a bit more broad than yours, then. If you start with the traditional dungeon-master-and-one-party-with-player-character-per-player structure, then yes, there may exist patterns which cannot be fun in that structure.

Huh? I said that there are limits on RPGs because there are limits on fiction. Are you claiming that there are more possible RPG plots than there are FICTION plots? That's crazy.

[Desdan_Mervolam]

I don't believe really that there is anything that is impossible to do with an RPG. There are many, many things that it is very hard to pull off well.

F'rinstance, horror. Horror requires a group that will sit still and keep their mouths shut during game (That is, not chat about the latest episode of Game of Thrones or make some sort of joke at the expense of what's going on in-game), a group that will accept the very real chance that most of their group probably won't succeed and it's entirely possible that not only might none of the group survive the adventure, but that their goal might not even succeed. That is a lot to ask of a group, and I don't think I've ever actually been in a group that could handle it.

You can do "The Chosen One" as a campaign. It requires either a solo campaign or a group where everyone else is content to be second fiddle to another PC. I don't think most groups would be interested, but it's not inconceivable.

[fectin]

I think that may depend what "second fiddle" really means.
- The support cast in Scrapped Princess aren't the chosen one, but they're still potent characters.
- Any Doctor Who RPG is going to have a crazy power imbalance.
- Someone on this board (maybe Stahlsee? Not sure.) has already explained how much he enjoyed playing support staff to a "chosen one" character.
Etc.

[ishy]

You could pretty much tell any story in an undefined game. As soon as you define a game, and its rules, you can tell fewer stories. Though you don't want to tell some stories anyway.

So if I redefine the question to: what stories rules can't support in a satisfactory manner your results would be things like diplomancers.

[Vebyast]

Huh? I said that there are limits on RPGs because there are limits on fiction. Are you claiming that there are more possible RPG plots than there are FICTION plots? That's crazy.

I don't know the cardinalities of those sets, but I could reasonably believe that RPG plots aren't a strict subset of fiction plots. For example, I could see an RPG about world-building where players go back and forth between themselves attempting to shape the setting to fit their own victory conditions. Making it fun would take some figuring out, but you'd come out of it with a game that would map better to a physics textbook than to any fiction plot with things like causality or characters.

Of course, that's a tangent.

The question: What characters or stories are impossible to produce in RPGs because of the characteristics of the medium

What you probably meant was this: "What characters or stories are impossible to produce in RPGS without the game becoming un-fun because of the characteristics of the medium". Those five words are really important. It is possible to build a DND party where one player owns Harry Potter, super speshul wizard with more super speshul than anybody else in the entire world. It just won't be fun. And therein lies the problem, because half of us were responding to what you meant and the other half were responding to what you actually wrote.

[Blade]

I think there are some weirder forms of fiction that can't be translated into RPG because there are no role to play.

I'm thinking about things like nouveau roman, where there can be no characters, so no role to play, hence no RPG.

[RobbyPants]

The information about where the lady and the tiger are is fundamentally on a different side of the DM's screen from the character in an RPG, while it is on the same side of the DM's screen in a book or movie.

There are RPGs with no DM, too.

Every one of those I've seen has a RNG of some sort and/or a blind decision-making structure.

Are you being pedantic for the sake of being pedantic, or are you trying to make a point? I can't think of a game that has no DM, no RNG, and no blind decision making that would resemble an RPG at all.

Maybe cops and robbers, but I'm not sure if that's an RPG.

[hogarth]

For a game to deliver characters surviving deadly scenarios, the scenarios themselves have to be "not actually deadly", which rather defeats the point.

No, it just changes the tension from "Will our hero survive this deadly encounter?" to "How will our hero survive this deadly encounter?" That's how a movie like Raiders of the Lost Ark can be thrilling even if you know in advance that Indiana Jones can't die because he has to go on to star in Indiana Jones and the Lost Crusade.

I agree that repeated unlikely occurences tend to stretch one's credibility after a certain point, but that's equally true of fiction and of RPGs.

[Saxony]

The question: What characters or stories are impossible to produce in RPGs because of the characteristics of the medium

What you probably meant was this: "What characters or stories are impossible to produce in RPGS without the game becoming un-fun because of the characteristics of the medium". Those five words are really important. It is possible to build a DND party where one player owns Harry Potter, super speshul wizard with more super speshul than anybody else in the entire world. It just won't be fun. And therein lies the problem, because half of us were responding to what you meant and the other half were responding to what you actually wrote.

No. I actually meant exactly and precisely what I wrote. Every socially inept forum hero and their dog whines about what is un-fun in table top RPGs (hint: their social ineptness).

The "problem" is that people drifted a tiny bit off topic into a closely related topic. Which isn't a problem. Discussions naturally drift, and the closely related topic is a useful one to ponder.

As far as people who remained on topic, there were some pretty interesting responses.

I must wonder what a story with no characters is like.