Monte Cookscape: Torment

[Dr_Noface]

I just rechecked the Torment kickstarter, and seems like they might make it to a cool 3.5 million. So I jumped on the bandwagon.

Man, I'm a sucker for isometric rpg's. 2014 is going to be pretty sweet for me gamewise between this and Project Eternity. My only wishes for the new Torment are

i) its not a complete bugfest like the original
ii) the game can be completed by convincing everyone you meet to off themselves

[zugschef]

a lot of people who worked on original pst are not part of the team working on the sequel. i wouldn't expect too much.

[fectin]

Who from PS:T is not working on T:ToN?

[Whipstitch]

Chris Avellone is the big one, which is part of why getting him on board in an official capacity was a stretch goal and why they've got a "Chris's Endorsement" video up on the site. Torment is widely considered his baby given that he was the lead designer and did a lot of the writing.

[Voss]

Plus almost everyone who isn't Brian Fargo (as in, most of the actual programmers, designers and artists)

This is seriously slapping a Great Man (well 1 of 2) stamp on computer game and pretending that it is going to be _anything_ like the original. Plus that can't use any of the Planescape setting, or, at least directly/obviously, any of the characters.

So really the major common factors are Brian Fargo is more or less in charge, and the word 'torment' is in the title. Other than that, it is entirely different.

Most of the names that they're throwing out are notable that they wrote/edited for Planescape (Not planescape: torment, but the setting and splat books), which is just a touch different than writing a story for a game. You may also recognize Colin McComb in particular from Frank's recent review of the Complete Book of Elves.


It might end up being a decent game. But they're really starting from scratch on a completely different project. Believing the hype that it will some how be a continuation or even spiritual successor to PS:T... well. If you send me $1000 I can point you to the design team.

[CapnTthePirateG]

I believe Patrick Rothfuss is doing some of the writing.

[K]

The important person is the writer because the story and characters were what made people love Torment. The programmers and designers have their job basically done for them because they can stick to the overall of what was done before.

I couldn't find out who wrote the dialogue and story of Torment, so I can't tell you if the same level of character and story is going to be in the spiritual sequel.

[Voss]

The important person is the writer because the story and characters were what made people love Torment. The programmers and designers have their job basically done for them because they can stick to the overall of what was done before.

They have a completely different engine to work with, and a different setting to build from the ground up (barring the bits Monte has already done, but given that Monte's briefs on Numenera specifies 'world' and the video specifies 'worlds'. That is a lot to create- they can't just plug in shit from PST.

Despite the tagline from the video (The 'what can change the nature of a man game,' the theme and story elements are pretty different- the main theme isn't immortality and memory, but possession (both in terms of being a possession, which is how the protagonist seems to have been created, and in the sense of possessing entity) and identity. There is some potential overlap in terms of identity, but one of the major elements of Torment was the slow realization that yours was the invisible hand of fate that set so much of the story in motion.

I couldn't find out who wrote the dialogue and story of Torment, so I can't tell you if the same level of character and story is going to be in the spiritual sequel.

Avellone. Who works for Obsidian, but might come on for some design work (and will write a single companion, woo) if they snaffle another $100k.

This article gives a pretty good indication of the roles. Ie, Avellone talks about what he did and Colin says 'Yeah, Chris did that.'
http://www.rpgwatch.com/show/article?articleid=56
It is also notable that both Avellone and Colin now feel that the game was too wordy at the expense of mechanics, so... yeah, another reason not to expect the new Torment to be like the original.


Its also worth noting that for all of Brian Fargo's name being on the new Torment and InXile, Fargo didn't really do anything on PST except for being the guy still in charge of Interplay. He has zero credits on the actual game.

I believe Patrick Rothfuss is doing some of the writing.

Well, that blows. I don't think a 100,000 word dialogue tree about how the main character didn't fuck a girl will really add anything.

[angelfromanotherpin]

I believe Patrick Rothfuss is doing some of the writing.

Well, that could be good or bad, depending entirely on which 'part' he's doing. Rothfuss does excellent prose, but fucking dreadful plot.

[fectin]

The T:ToN updates claim that Chris Avellone did most of the writing on PS:T, and also that he did that by sketching out an overview, then farming the details out to seven other writers.
This time, Colin will be lead writer, with Avellone riding herd on him if they hit their goal (likely), and with subsidiary writers (including Pat Rothfus) and a dedicated editor.
That sounds pretty promising to me.

[Avoraciopoctules]

Confession Time: I didn't finish Torment I. But I remember it being pretty fun, and I liked what the people on the kickstarter were pitching even though I couldn't be bothered to remember who worked on what.

[K]

The important person is the writer because the story and characters were what made people love Torment. The programmers and designers have their job basically done for them because they can stick to the overall of what was done before.

They have a completely different engine to work with, and a different setting to build from the ground up (barring the bits Monte has already done, but given that Monte's briefs on Numenera specifies 'world' and the video specifies 'worlds'. That is a lot to create- they can't just plug in shit from PST.

No, but they already know what the game should look like, what engine is being used, and what the players are expecting. That's the hardest part of their job.

The writer is the one that is going to tell them which maps need to be made, which characters need sprites, and which decision trees need to be coded, and that leaves the designers free to work on those things.

I guess they might work on programming Monte's game mechanics, but I have a strong feeling that if it's not a simple system they will just write a new set of mechanics that are.

[JigokuBosatsu]

Heh. Yeah, as nice a guy as Fargo is (I've had casual contact with him on the interwebs since the late 90s)... when was the last time he was hands-on in a game? I'm sure without Avellone this is Torment in name only.

[zugschef]

The important person is the writer because the story and characters were what made people love Torment. The programmers and designers have their job basically done for them because they can stick to the overall of what was done before.

I couldn't find out who wrote the dialogue and story of Torment, so I can't tell you if the same level of character and story is going to be in the spiritual sequel.

a lot of input still comes from people who write code. and i wouldn't leave out the producer. the producer has a lot to do with the finished product.

In several interviews the producer of the game, Guido Henkel, stated that he was increasingly frustrated by the pressure the management of Interplay put on the development team after Interplay's initial public offering.[29][30] Although only a few additional subplots and characters had to be discarded to meet the planned release date, he accused the Interplay management of disregarding the development team regarding things like package design and marketing.[29] Henkel said that it was his main goal to prevent the game from being "crippled" before leaving Interplay when the game reached beta status.[30] He also made the claim that his overall influence on the game was greater than that of Chris Avellone, Eric Campanella, or Dave Maldonaldo, but since a producer often has to make unpopular decisions his role was later downplayed.

henkel gave an interview on a german forum (so everybody could ask questions) and said, that he had even written a lot of code for ps:t. without henkel and avellone this game won't be another game in the mold of ps:t.

[Josh_Kablack]

Uh, you're upset because a game from 14 years ago can't get all of the original talent back together to make a crowdfunded sequel?

This ranks up there with my disappointment that Ultima VI was never released for the Apple IIc.

[fectin]

Welp, Avellone is on board now.

[Whipstitch]

That's cool, although it's still an open question as to what the game will be like thematically; this one hasn't been his baby from the start like Torment was and in the past Avellone has mentioned that he never had interest in a truly direct sequel to begin with. Which, is just as well, really; they told a good story the first time around and so there's only so much you want to fuck with that.

[Ghremdal]

I am excited about it because it asks a good question: "What does one life matter?"

If they can get the story right, with multiple significant endings and meaningful character interactions then it will be a good game.

However I am still holding my breath on the whole kickstarter game thing. I hope the InExile et al games don't tank, but the cynic in me....

[zugschef]

Uh, you're upset because a game from 14 years ago can't get all of the original talent back together to make a crowdfunded sequel?

what makes you think that i'm upset?

[Dr_Noface]

might hit 4 milliionsse

[Avoraciopoctules]

I was looking for a Torment thread, and this came up when I searched. Necro time! The game is in preproduction right now, and they recently posted something that talked about alignment in their game.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/inx ... sts/653368



Certainly sounds more complicated than D&D, but I am tentatively optimistic.

[Pedantic]

Gold and Indigo aren't particularly well differentiated, at least in that example. One is aiming more lawful than the other, but the differences are pretty weak.

[Username17]

Gold and Indigo aren't particularly well differentiated, at least in that example. One is aiming more lawful than the other, but the differences are pretty weak.

I was struck by the same thing. Indigo wants to leave the world more organized, Gold wants to leave the world more loving, but all their other answers are really just restatements of each other.

-Username17

[hogarth]

Gold and Indigo aren't particularly well differentiated, at least in that example. One is aiming more lawful than the other, but the differences are pretty weak.

It's the ol' Basic D&D alignment system of "Lawful doesn't mean good, nah I'm just shittin' you, it really means good".

[Starmaker]

Oh, no. This is worse than Types of RPG Players, more so because of how pretentious it is. I am sad.

Blue is the Tide of wisdom, enlightenment, and mysticism. It is the Tide of people whose goal is to expand the mind and the spirit (Western culture may compartmentalize these, but in many cultures they're the same thing). They seek wisdom or knowledge, and consider death a loss when it means a person's knowledge is lost forever. Characters who embody the Blue Tide can include both scientists and mystics, philosophers and madmen.

Dak'kon would be Blue in that he strives to *know* himself and the teachings of Zerthimon.


Red is the Tide of passion, emotion, action, and zeal. It is the Tide of people who live in the moment, who want to experience life to its fullest, or who choose to follow their heart wherever it leads them. They consider a life lived in chains to be worse than death (whether those chains are real or self-imposed metaphorical ones is immaterial). Characters who embody the Red Tide can include artists, revolutionaries, zealots, Sensates, and charismatic dictators.

Annah would be Red. She's quick to follow her emotions, whether they're anger, fear, or passion.


Indigo is the Tide of justice, compromise, and the greater good. It is not just about law, but about a broader, more global perspective, rather than an individual one. They consider loss of life tragic, but less so if it serves a better outcome. Characters who embody the Indigo Tide can include rulers, lawmakers, vigilantes, and tyrants.

Vhailor would be Indigo, because he believes in justice and order so much that he carries on his mission even after his death.


Gold is the Tide of charity, sacrifice, and empathy. It is the Tide of people whose primary goal is to help others, especially at a cost to themselves. It's tempting to consider Gold the "good" Tide, but that's not strictly true (one can be charitable to others for selfish reasons, for example). Gold is similar to the Indigo Tide in that both seek the good of others, but they can easily be in direct opposition concerning how that good is achieved and who should pay the price. Characters who embody the Gold Tide can include saints (both true or false), philanthropists, and even crime bosses who care for their people and their communities.

Fhjull Forked-Tongue would be Gold, even though his acts of charity are forced upon him by a contract he signed with a deva. Remember, his motivations don’t matter—people remember him as the fiend who must perform good works.


Silver is the Tide of admiration, power, and fame. It is the Tide of people who seek to influence the lives of others or who actively seek to be remembered. It can easily be seen as a selfish Tide, but that is a question of motivation that the Tides do not ask. Whether a Silver character is selfish or not is an ethical question dependent on what they use their prestige for. Silver characters desire influence (whether through personal interactions or through the manipulation of the levers of power) and the immortality of being remembered. Characters who embody the Silver Tide are, above all, personalities.

Ignus would be Silver because he is willing to endure great suffering in his relentless pursuit of power.

I tried to write a Kaelik-style teardown, but all of it is so incoherent I don't even know where to start. I was never so happy to have backed out.