The Gaming Den

Does anyone know?

Specifically, I've been painting Dark Angels for a couple years, because I enjoy the painting. I have some idea how the game works, but have essentially never played. This may give the right perspective: I ordered the rulebook today.

A bunch of friends have decided that we're going to actually start playing 40K. I'm cool with that. It's a good enough group that the quality of the game actually doesn't matter at all; it'll be fun hanging out.

However, that still does leave me needing to actually assemble an army. Or anything like an army. Does anyone here have any tips? I would really, strongly prefer to stick with Dark Angels, but I would also like to not suck.

You can assume that I know absolutely nothing mechanics-wise, but will read up generally before playing, and will specifically look up anything you call out.

Dark Angels are pretty good overall, so no need to worry about your army choice. Most of 40k comes down to list building and deployment. You only get between 5 and 7 turns of play, and you won't be making sweeping moves across the field in most cases.

Without knowing more about what you're planning for a list or playing against, not much to really worry about rules wise. It's an ok ruleset that while not inspired doesn't have any huge pitfalls either with the newest edition.

You'll want to know the basic rules, and have some idea of the rules for any army you face. Also, it makes Shadowrun look sane in terms of the number of d6 you roll.

Make sure your army can handle both small numbers of hard targets and large numbers of soft targets, but weight towards the former because Marines are so prevalent. Then, see if you can make your army either entirely armored or entirely squishy to deny the enemy the portion of their firepower used on the other type of target (as Dark Angels, you obviously want to go all armored).

Last I heard, aircraft were overpowered, but the metagame may have shifted since.

fectin wrote:Does anyone know?

Specifically, I've been painting Dark Angels for a couple years, because I enjoy the painting. I have some idea how the game works, but have essentially never played. This may give the right perspective: I ordered the rulebook today.

A bunch of friends have decided that we're going to actually start playing 40K. I'm cool with that. It's a good enough group that the quality of the game actually doesn't matter at all; it'll be fun hanging out.

However, that still does leave me needing to actually assemble an army. Or anything like an army. Does anyone here have any tips? I would really, strongly prefer to stick with Dark Angels, but I would also like to not suck.

You can assume that I know absolutely nothing mechanics-wise, but will read up generally before playing, and will specifically look up anything you call out.

Get allies. Allied armies really help fill up the holes in your line-up, so it's now not uncommon to see a splash of Guard in virtually all armies; especially with Marine armies like the DAs who have such a low model count (more models = more bodies to take and hold objectives with, and the new Warhammer edition strongly emphasizes objective-taking).

fectin wrote: However, that still does leave me needing to actually assemble an army. Or anything like an army. Does anyone here have any tips? I would really, strongly prefer to stick with Dark Angels, but I would also like to not suck.

Space marines in general can afford tough armor at a cheap price. You can seize the middle of the board and from there halt your foe's movements. space marines lose when their foe outmaneuvers them and pits 100% of their army against 50% of yours.

Basically, Space Marines are playing American Football (move forward and seize ground).

I haven't seen anything good done with drop pods though, as it's a way for your army to die in bite sized chunks. The strength of t4 3+ is being a mobile brick house.

You can check otu this website too:
http://www.3plusplus.net/2013/05/dark-a ... nd-squads/

They're doing a dark angels review, and also cover general 6e strategy.

Terminator armor got a major boost in 6th edition, as all melee weapons which ignore it now go on initiative 1 (at the same time as your power fists and thunder hammers!). Combined with Storm Shields 3++ against everything, Hammernators are pretty amazing right now. So fielding Deathwing is looking appealing for the first time since 2nd edition.

Airpower is still pretty dominant, but you can gain access to the stormraven. If DA don't have it themselves, they can use allied codex marines or blood angels for it. (For codex marines you'd need Skies of Death or whatever the supplement is called to get the rules, as its been appended to their codex). Stormravens are pretty dominant as anti-air right now. Without going to the air themselves, marines have a hard time getting reliable anti-air, so the alternative is to just ignore flyers.

Land Raiders may or may not be considered to have gotten a boost in 6th edition. 4 Hull Points and AV14 is pretty tough, and since weapons no longer roll for specific damage on glancing hits, you're likely to get more turns of actual use out of them.

I'd also be less worried about MEQ (marine equivalent) armies and more worried about hordes than historically. Tau have a recent codex, and 'nids are pretty dominant. Which isn't to say you shouldn't have some answers to MEQ and armor, but you'll probably also want some dedicated anti-horde options like flamers.

Disagree with Ogre Battle on drop pods. They're generally used in one of two ways:
#1 - distract the opponent with a devastating first strike unit or otherwise something they have to deal with. (Examples: Furioso Dreadnought (BA), Sternguard). This can wreak substantial havoc and force the opponent to concentrate fire on something other than your advancing forces. (I've also heard Vanguard Vets recommended as a followup to sternguard for the charge on deepstrike rule, to bring a killy squad in to turn the inevitable melee in your favor, but that starts being a lot of points on a distraction). Potentially relevant, non-BA marines can get a special drop pod (using IA #2 book) that allows a Dreadnought to assault the turn it deepstrikes. Turn 1 assault with a dread sounds pretty good.

#2: Null deploy. Give your opponent nothing to shoot at until your first turn, then treat drop pods as extreme mobility for your army. That is, you can instantly concentrate what force you bring down on specific elements of his army, and thus control the scope and advantage of the engagement. Effectively, you dictate all the terms of battle.

For what it's worth, here's this:

http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,00 ... ark_Angels

Ultimately, it's like every other conflict.

Deception. If you bring something to the table, the enemy shouldn't know what you're going to do with it.

Conversely, being able to know what your enemies forces are capable of will help a great deal as well with knowing where to position forces, and how to use them round by round.

Identification of, and targeting of "halfway" points not within the map, but in the very game engine itself. That is to say, things that bend the game in two.

This leads to concepts such as always preferring to attack of flanks, material, psychological, and tactical. Unconventional attacks lead to victory. Conventionally attacking is only going to engage the enemy, not give you victory.

Sometimes it's fielding enough pie-plates against enemies that aren't. I've been on both sides of the equation, and always prefer to be able to deliver them, not receive them. Of course, don't go crazy, two whirlwings is enough to make anyone's game a nightmare, even marines.

Range is one way to flank an enemy tactically. Physically flanking isn't always necessary. Remember, 'flanking' simply means that one is attacking an undefended angle; not just advancing from the side or rear.

Other times it's about fielding as many of the best as you can. Sometimes this means min sized max equipped squads with las cannons and melta-guns; other times it means going for "boring" missile launcher and flamer squads. This varies from edition to edition (this is also part of the problem of 40k's over reliance on list building; a great list is brutal, a mediocre one can feel like rubbish). People expect certain things about marines; don't let them think so about how you field yours.

Doing things that people don't expect often wrecks their psychology about further play. A massing of flamers, or other blast radii, at a point where a concentration of enemies is going to advance. Dropping ranged attack after attack into a squad until it bites the dust or breaks. Throwing obviously suicidal attacks that are merely expendable feints meant to draw forces from the map objectives.

Since 40k battles of the 1,500 pt range are mostly skirmishes, you need to be able to identify what is going to deliver the most ways to bring not just the best, but also the most, of your codexes' power to bear on your enemy.

I've also found that reading Sonshi several times radically changed how I approached 40k.

I went to middling success for years, then not playing for years and years, and suddenly being able to upset players who played more regularly than I ever had, that before the game was properly over, they would quit in frustration.

Just some things off of the top of my head from losing disastrously, and winning through clever schemes and ruses.

Lack of experience is not necessarily a bad thing. 3rd to 6th edition 40k rules look more-or-less the same, but fiddly, vital bits change with every edition.

rasmuswagner wrote:Lack of experience is not necessarily a bad thing. 3rd to 6th edition 40k rules look more-or-less the same, but fiddly, vital bits change with every edition.

Of course, most people don't bother to carefully read the new rulebook. And if you try playing exactly what's written, people will accuse you of twisting the rules out of shape. They, on the other hand, will happily twist the rules out of shape well beyond what the printed text allows, because its the "true spirit" of the rules.

(Try to figure out how template weapons actually work according to the rules, then compare it to how most people think they work.)

Thanks, everyone. I'm not smart enough to even ask intelligent questions (yet!), but I appreciate the pointers so far.

squirrelloid wrote: (Try to figure out how template weapons actually work according to the rules, then compare it to how most people think they work.)

Is this the bit where you have to try to cover as many models in the targeted enemy unit as possible without covering your own units, and that target unit has to be within line of sight, however any other enemy models can still be hit (even if out of line of sight) as long as you followed that first rule, and that the defending player still gets to allocate the actual wounds?

As for Dark Angels:
[*]Deathwing is pretty decent, as long as you hammershield as much as possible/take Heavy weapons (Plasma is the new black). The new weird weapons are stupid, avoid taking them.
[*]Just because Deathwing can be taken as Troops, does not mean you should actually make your Troops Deathwing only. You'll end up with like ten scoring models, and even if they can't be killed, they can be tied up in melee by chaff and then never hold an objective.
[*]It is a cute trick to get the Banner of Fuck You, some dudes with Boltguns, then a couple of Land Raider Crusaders (with or without forcefields) and jam them together as a platform for shredding basic crap. Before you leap at this, note the points cost (and the dollars cost).
[*]Allying into Guard is not for everyone. Wait sorry, I meant it is always for everyone. Do it. Get a big Guard Blob, then get the DA hero who gives any attached unit Fearless + Invulnerable. Then run about tying up particularly beastly foes.
[*]Don't take DA flyers. That's what your allies are for. Don't take a Vendetta, take two.

Koumei wrote:

squirrelloid wrote: (Try to figure out how template weapons actually work according to the rules, then compare it to how most people think they work.)

Is this the bit where you have to try to cover as many models in the targeted enemy unit as possible without covering your own units, and that target unit has to be within line of sight, however any other enemy models can still be hit (even if out of line of sight) as long as you followed that first rule, and that the defending player still gets to allocate the actual wounds?

You're skipping a lot of steps, and thus plastering over all the ambiguity.

Template rules only tell you to use them in step 3. So...
Step 1: check LoS. No problems, that works fine.
Step 2: check range. What do you do here?
Step 3: Follow template rules. What happens if you can't touch any models in the target unit?

The range is "Template". So you place the template. Are they under the template? They're in range. If not, then they're not in range, which is the same as if foes are 25" away when you try to use your Bolters. Note that this is premeasure edition so this shouldn't happen.

Koumei wrote:The range is "Template". So you place the template. Are they under the template? They're in range. If not, then they're not in range, which is the same as if foes are 25" away when you try to use your Bolters. Note that this is premeasure edition so this shouldn't happen.

You are completely wrong, sadly.

On the one hand, the rules do not allow you to place the template until step 3. So you can't measure range with the template - you've already determined if you're in range or not before the template touches the table.

Second, all measurements are made with a tape measure or a measuring stick, as per p4 measuring distances.

Third, as the template weapon has not been given special rules for checking range, it must adhere to the same rules as every other model for checking range. When checking range you measure in a straight line from your model to the closest visible model in the target squad. This is done with a tape measure, as per the rules on measuring distances.

Interposing models in your own unit don't matter for checking range. (So at the very least, if you even *can* check range for a template, you might still find yourself unable to touch a model in the target squad even if you are in range).

Fourth, you compare the distance you measured to the weapons range. Your range is 'Template'. I measure 8 1/4". Is 8 1/4" > 'Template'? Note that 'Template' is a mention, not a use, and explicitly so ("Template weapons are indicated by having the word 'Template' for their range instead of a number"), so its not proper to measure the physical template to convert that to a number, because it's the *word* template. This suggests, for any distance x, x > 'Template' is neither true nor false. Since Step 2 specifically tells you that if x > $range then you don't fire, and you cannot determine x > 'Template', then template weapons can never be determined to be out of range, and always fire. (I've submitted a question to GW's FAQ team on exactly this, we'll see if they errata this to something sensible).

Fifth, once you put the template down legally it stays down. Nothing lets you remove the template after its been legally placed (edit: until the full rules have been resolved - ie, hits determined), and all touched models are hit.

Sixth, to legally place the template in step 3, you must (1) not touch any friendly models, and (2) touch as many models as possible from the target squad. Zero is a valid number for 'as many models as possible'. In this case, any orientation which doesn't touch a friendly model is a valid placement, and note that models from other squads which are touched by the placement you choose are still hit as per the template rules.

Squirreloid, I can't tell if you're trolling or if you're just being Shadzar.

Flamers have technically been allowed to shoot at other squads than the target squad since at least 3rd edition. Frankly, I think it worked that way in 2nd edition and even Rogue Trader, although for very different reasons. The key has been since 3rd edition (which we should really just start calling "first edition", because everything before 3rd edition was bullshit), Flamers can be put on the table wherever they will cover as many enemy models from the target as possible, but the enemy player can't move them. So if the target squad is 20" away, but there's another squad 6" away, you can drop the flamer template on the latter and the enemy player can't do dick about it.

-Username17

That's correct, it can cover other enemy units, so if the rest of the team fires their bolters over yonder, you can still torch enemies that are in "We're going to assault you" range. But if the target unit is in any way in range, you have to place the template so it hits as many as possible from them, even if you'd rather skip them and focus it entirely on this other unit.

But yeah, 3E is basically the real 1E, 4E is 2E and for many armies was Bland Edition, 5E is TankEd (and also Bland Edition for many armies), and 6E is d6 Ed because everything is just rolled randomly - this way you don't get scared away by having to make decisions!

rasmuswagner wrote:Squirreloid, I can't tell if you're trolling or if you're just being Shadzar.

That's not trolling! That's an exact reading of the rules. There literally is no special procedure for checking range with a template weapon, and yet it doesn't have a numerical range. (The degree of rules-writing fail this represents is pretty large).

Is it intuitive? Hell no, which is why everyone gets it wrong!

FrankTrollman wrote:Flamers have technically been allowed to shoot at other squads than the target squad since at least 3rd edition. Frankly, I think it worked that way in 2nd edition and even Rogue Trader, although for very different reasons. The key has been since 3rd edition (which we should really just start calling "first edition", because everything before 3rd edition was bullshit), Flamers can be put on the table wherever they will cover as many enemy models from the target as possible, but the enemy player can't move them. So if the target squad is 20" away, but there's another squad 6" away, you can drop the flamer template on the latter and the enemy player can't do dick about it.

-Username17

They got close to fixing templates, finally, in 6th edition, because now weapons which are out of range don't fire.

(As opposed to previous editions, where all weapons were assumed to fire but 'automatically miss' if out of range. Since the template specific 'always hits' rule was more specific, even if you could assemble a valid argument for being considered 'out of range', the template still went down because it fired, and then its special rules kicked in.)

The problem is, 6th edition was finally explicit that all measurements must be done with a tape measure (which killed the only possible argument that could put a template out of range, as poor as that argument was), and then didn't give templates any way to check range against a tape measure. So they're like halfway there. Maybe another 3 editions and we'll finally have template rules that give a complete procedure which doesn't require applying logic beyond the capabilities of most of the playerbase.

Koumei wrote: [*]Allying into Guard is not for everyone. Wait sorry, I meant it is always for everyone. Do it. Get a big Guard Blob, then get the DA hero who gives any attached unit Fearless + Invulnerable. Then run about tying up particularly beastly foes.
[*]Don't take DA flyers. That's what your allies are for. Don't take a Vendetta, take two.

Two Vendettas on their own is always a reason to take Guard as an ally. They can take out enemy fliers and then enemy tanks

Allying into Guard is not for everyone. Wait sorry, I meant it is always for everyone. Do it. Get a big Guard Blob, then get the DA hero who gives any attached unit Fearless + Invulnerable. Then run about tying up particularly beastly foes.

Hmm.... do those units of conscripts that can reach 40 models still exist in IG?

At that point, it reminds me of when I could use Chaos Cultist screens (2e, and then again when Eye of Terror came out); except that bolters, lascannons and powerfists can still be saved against. D:

Judging__Eagle wrote:

Allying into Guard is not for everyone. Wait sorry, I meant it is always for everyone. Do it. Get a big Guard Blob, then get the DA hero who gives any attached unit Fearless + Invulnerable. Then run about tying up particularly beastly foes.

Hmm.... do those units of conscripts that can reach 40 models still exist in IG?

At that point, it reminds me of when I could use Chaos Cultist screens (2e, and then again when Eye of Terror came out); except that bolters, lascannons and powerfists can still be saved against. D:

You can make 50 model guardsmen blobs, but I don't own the codex to know exactly how.

So, I see a couple of things so far:
-Techmarines. You can add one per HQ choice, slotless, and tack on 2x Servitors with heavy bolters. Total cost: 90 for a tiny death blossom.
-Terrain. Surprisingly good buys.
-Sameal is kind of overpriced, but lets you take bikes as troops. That's pretty sweet. Assault bikes let you kite meleeists and are generally nasty.
-landspeeders are bitchin anti-infantry platforms. The landspeeder with the crazy plasma weapons looks like it could crush either infantry or vehicles, which is sweet.

Apparently, we're going to be playing 600 point games to start. That's... pretty tiny. I'm looking at buffeting on HQ choices, then throw-away troops to round it out. Something like Azrael + veterans with storm shields, a techmarine with heavy-boltered servitors, and a minimal bike squad and tactical squad.

Please tell me why my ideas are bad/wrong/badwrong.

Also: a close, literal reading of the rules suggests that you can fire into an enemy squad which is engaged by your walker. Is that correct?

Sammael is not overpriced at all. Sammael is made of awesome. Belial, on the other hand, is overpriced.

Landspeeders are usually better in an anti-tank role because they need to make their points back fast before they get whacked. (And since they're harder to hide and AV10, they are going to get whacked, generally). Attack Bikes have a lot to recommend them as an alternative.

At 600 pts I'd be tempted to grab a cheap librarian as an HQ to get more boots on the ground (or armor, if that's your thing), unless you really want to play Deathwing or Ravenwing. Okay, I don't even know that you *can* play Deathwing at 600pts. Ravenwing is probably doable. Then you're going to want a suitable special character.

Not that an Azrael deathstar is bad, but marines don't really bring the killy to close combat that some other armies can bring, and Azrael is probably going to lose to something like a Greater Daemon or Tyranid character. So you're left with the awful choice of refusing the challenge (and not getting to use Azrael in melee), or letting your character get punked while your squad stands around and looks on, whenever a real combat monster runs into them. Edit: At more points you can join him to a squad of those Deathwing Knights, and 1 turn per game they can kill any 2 units any army in the game can throw at them, but you're not going to do that in 600pts.

Re:walkers - "Walkers that are locked in combat cannot be shot at." p84
Edit: Oh, you were asking about the enemy troops? Walkers assault and are assaulted like infantry, and are locked in combat, so the enemy unit is locked in combat and cannot be fired at. Check p28.