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The inevitable 'get a wish from jerkface genies' thread.
Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:43 pm
by Lago PARANOIA
You know the drill.
Open questions:
1.) Most importantly, is there any way to avoid the whole 'oh, in some ancient language in another dimensional timeline, your wish really means this' problem? If there isn't, then assume that there's some unbreakable law that makes this so.
2.) Assuming that you were (un)fortunate enough to get ahold of two jerkface genies, any way you could play them off of each other in order that you could come out ahead?
3.) Alternatively, what about wishes for which if the wish-granter gives the wish, both wishee and wisher get what they want? Again, assumes a separate entity.
Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:50 pm
by TheFlatline
1. Cockpunch the DM. Or Tongues.
2. Blow your first of three wishes on wishing that if the other genie plays games with your wish that genie is banished to some appropriate realm where they'll be extremely unpleasant.
3. That entirely depends on what the wish grater wants right?
Re: The inevitable 'get a wish from jerkface genies' thread.
Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:05 pm
by hyzmarca
Lago PARANOIA wrote:You know the drill.
Open questions:
1.) Most importantly, is there any way to avoid the whole 'oh, in some ancient language in another dimensional timeline, your wish really means this' problem? If there isn't, then assume that there's some unbreakable law that makes this so.
Include a plain language, commonly accepted meaning clause and add specific definitions of terms that might be ambiguous.
2.) Assuming that you were (un)fortunate enough to get ahold of two jerkface genies, any way you could play them off of each other in order that you could come out ahead?
That depends on what the genies want.
Hypothetically, you could use one of your wishes to refresh the other genie's wishes per day and another to reset the binding, so that you get infinite wishes from both of them. But that requires them to hate each other more than they want to screw you over.
3.) Alternatively, what about wishes for which if the wish-granter gives the wish, both wishee and wisher get what they want? Again, assumes a separate entity.
Completely doable, but this assumes that you're dealing with a jerkass genie and not an imcompetent genie.
Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:19 pm
by Avoraciopoctules
Genie thread? Ain't no jerk genie as classy as Dicko.
http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/14527687/
Pssht, that's inane. 'I wish for a bagel'.
Ok, fine, you get your bagel, but you and it are AT THE CENTRE OF THE SUN!
It's not clever, and it doesn't really come across as a reasonable interpretation of the wish.
>You didn't specify that I, Dicko the Genie, can't do terrible thing X with your wish!
>Suddenly you get everything you wished for but a rock falls and crushes you lol!
>Just another day for I, Dicko the Genie!
Though to be fair, that's probably the most dickish response ever, so props to the Genie for using it. Especially if that's used for almost every wish.
"I'd like all the money i could ever want!"
>You won't want much money AT THE CENTRE OF THE SUN!
"I just want world peace."
>Done. death by SUN CENTRE is very peaceful."
"Uh, I don't want a wish, you asshat. I'll just be going..."
>GOING TO THE CENTRE OF THE SUN! ohohoh, i slay me!
EDIT:
So if a goth kid genuinely wished for death, what would a malicious genie do with that?
Eternal Life while being forever tortured by I, Dicko the Genie! I grant the death part by making him undead, but still feeling.
I'm thinking the first million years will be spent in the center of the sun.
Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:35 pm
by Vebyast
There are three kinds of genies: Genies to whom you can safely say "I wish for you to do what I should wish for"; genies for which no wish is safe; and genies that aren't very powerful or intelligent.
Attempting to outwit a hostile DM is pointless. There is no feedback, so you have to get it right the very first time. Any ambiguity will be used to dick you over. The DM has as much time as he wants to find that ambiguity because he owns the world and can retcon in whatever he wants. The only way to ensure a total lack of ambiguity is to specify an entire world-state, and since only the DM knows enough about the setting to do that, you are
stuck. A dungeon master is a wish of the second kind: no wish is safe.
Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:36 pm
by Darth Rabbitt
Avoraciopoctules wrote:Genie thread? Ain't no jerk genie as classy as Dicko.
[stuff]
That kind of reminds me of the Clavicus Vile quest in Skyrim, where if you wish for an end to the civil war he's all like "The war will end... WHEN DRAGONS DESTROY EVERYTHING!" which made him a fucking idiot, because I had killed Alduin already in that playthrough.
Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 11:52 pm
by TheFlatline
Vebyast wrote:There are three kinds of genies: Genies to whom you can safely say "I wish for you to do what I should wish for"; genies for which no wish is safe; and genies that aren't very powerful or intelligent.
Attempting to outwit a hostile DM is pointless. There is no feedback, so you have to get it right the very first time. Any ambiguity will be used to dick you over. The DM has as much time as he wants to find that ambiguity because he owns the world and can retcon in whatever he wants. The only way to ensure a total lack of ambiguity is to specify an entire world-state, and since only the DM knows enough about the setting to do that, you are
stuck. A dungeon master is a wish of the second kind: no wish is safe.
So I default back to my original answer. Cockpunch the DM.
Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:01 am
by hyzmarca
Vebyast wrote:There are three kinds of genies: Genies to whom you can safely say "I wish for you to do what I should wish for"; genies for which no wish is safe; and genies that aren't very powerful or intelligent.
Attempting to outwit a hostile DM is pointless. There is no feedback, so you have to get it right the very first time. Any ambiguity will be used to dick you over. The DM has as much time as he wants to find that ambiguity because he owns the world and can retcon in whatever he wants. The only way to ensure a total lack of ambiguity is to specify an entire world-state, and since only the DM knows enough about the setting to do that, you are
stuck. A dungeon master is a wish of the second kind: no wish is safe.
No. You can always include a clause that specifically states "no consequences that I would consider to be bad if I knew the full details about them can happen to myself or anyone that I care about or anything that I care about as a result of this wish."
Or if you care about the well-being of complete strangers simply "no consequences that I would consider bad if I knew the full details about them can happen to anyone or anything as a result of this wish.
Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:08 am
by Chamomile
hyzmarca wrote:No. You can always include a clause that specifically states "no consequences that I would consider to be bad if I knew the full details about them can happen to myself or anyone that I care about or anything that I care about as a result of this wish."
Or if you care about the well-being of complete strangers simply "no consequences that I would consider bad if I knew the full details about them can happen to anyone or anything as a result of this wish.
"Then I'll just magically rewrite your mind such that you don't consider it bad to be in the CENTRE OF THE SUN!"
Dicko the genie strikes again.
Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:18 am
by Winnah
There was an episode of the X-Files that covered genies.
The Genie was actually a medieval French peasant that found a magic lamp. Her first wish was for a sack of turnips, that never ran out. Her second wish was for Great Power and Long Life. So she got turned into a Genie. Her motivation for fucking other people over was that she felt people were selfish and stupid, and therefore deserved what was coming to them. Plus she was pissed off at being turned into a Genie.
Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:30 am
by TheFlatline
Chamomile wrote:hyzmarca wrote:No. You can always include a clause that specifically states "no consequences that I would consider to be bad if I knew the full details about them can happen to myself or anyone that I care about or anything that I care about as a result of this wish."
Or if you care about the well-being of complete strangers simply "no consequences that I would consider bad if I knew the full details about them can happen to anyone or anything as a result of this wish.
"Then I'll just magically rewrite your mind such that you don't consider it bad to be in the CENTRE OF THE SUN!"
Dicko the genie strikes again.
Include a clause that the results of the wish apply to Dicko and myself equally. For example, if he sends me to the center of the sun to be tortured for a million years, he must go, in a state equivalent to my own, to be tortured for a million years. If I'm mortal and Dicko sends me to the core of the sun, he's got a short lifespan left ahead of him.
Yeah he can still fuck me over, but his own sense of self preservation should kick in then. And if he's not that kind of genie with a sense of self preservation, I just wish he ceases to exist immediately before he does anything to me.
Re: The inevitable 'get a wish from jerkface genies' thread.
Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:10 am
by Prak
Lago PARANOIA wrote:3.) Alternatively, what about wishes for which if the wish-granter gives the wish, both wishee and wisher get what they want? Again, assumes a separate entity.
That depends on the
genie, and what it wants. [NSFW, genie dick)
In the linked circumstance, I would just propose that I suck his dick once in payment for each non-dick sucking wish. Either way, he gets his dick sucked 1-3 times. If he just wants to chop peoples' legs off, but wishes wasted on sucking his dick are sufficiently funny to him to make him not chop off legs, then I just pay a bunch of commoners a ridiculous (to them) sum of money/turnips to come "help me with something" and then propose to the genie that if he grants me my wishes, he can chop off a commoner's legs and I'll still suck his dick.
Of course, if it's Dicko the Genie wanting his dick sucked, I guess I'm doomed to suck genie dick at the centre of the sun.
Of course, you can always just make your first wish a wish for an item of infinite wishes that has no free will and must fulfill your wishes exactly as you intend them but which does not cost the genie anything in any way.
Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:26 am
by shadzar
dont be a fucking Munchkin and the wish becomes no problem. be a Munchkin player get treated like one where wishes and all other things are concerned.
Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:07 am
by OgreBattle
Can you wish for the genie to go kill itself
Re: The inevitable 'get a wish from jerkface genies' thread.
Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:08 am
by echoVanguard
Lago PARANOIA wrote:Most importantly, is there any way to avoid the whole 'oh, in some ancient language in another dimensional timeline, your wish really means this' problem? If there isn't, then assume that there's some unbreakable law that makes this so.
"I seem to be having tremendous difficulty with my lifestyle."
echo
Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:09 am
by shadzar
OgreBattle wrote:Can you wish for the genie to go kill itself
that is one of the few things that Robin Williams said was not allowed. no killing people and you cant make someone fall in love with you (free will and all that.)
Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:14 am
by Prak
Because animated Disney movies are the secret "Genies and Wishes" rulebook for D&D.
Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:35 am
by TheFlatline
shadzar wrote:OgreBattle wrote:Can you wish for the genie to go kill itself
that is one of the few things that Robin Williams said was not allowed. no killing people and you cant make someone fall in love with you (free will and all that.)
Good thing a djinn isn't a person then isn't it?
Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 4:08 am
by erik
TheFlatline wrote:shadzar wrote:OgreBattle wrote:Can you wish for the genie to go kill itself
that is one of the few things that Robin Williams said was not allowed. no killing people and you cant make someone fall in love with you (free will and all that.)
Good thing a djinn isn't a person then isn't it?
Except that one genie indisputably is a person in that movie. I'd expect by that movie's rules, the djinn count as people and are exempted.
Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 6:48 am
by jadagul
hyzmarca wrote:Vebyast wrote:There are three kinds of genies: Genies to whom you can safely say "I wish for you to do what I should wish for"; genies for which no wish is safe; and genies that aren't very powerful or intelligent.
Attempting to outwit a hostile DM is pointless. There is no feedback, so you have to get it right the very first time. Any ambiguity will be used to dick you over. The DM has as much time as he wants to find that ambiguity because he owns the world and can retcon in whatever he wants. The only way to ensure a total lack of ambiguity is to specify an entire world-state, and since only the DM knows enough about the setting to do that, you are
stuck. A dungeon master is a wish of the second kind: no wish is safe.
No. You can always include a clause that specifically states "no consequences that I would consider to be bad if I knew the full details about them can happen to myself or anyone that I care about or anything that I care about as a result of this wish."
Or if you care about the well-being of complete strangers simply "no consequences that I would consider bad if I knew the full details about them can happen to anyone or anything as a result of this wish.
But the point is that any genie that would respond to that clause in an "appropriate" manner would also respond well to "I wish for you to fulfill whatever wish I should be making right now." That's actually less ambiguous than almost anything else you could come up with. The problem is that a sufficiently dickish genie could get around that ("now that you're at the center of the sun you should wish to be back on earth! So you are, if slightly crispy"; or worse, "Well, I think you should wish to be at the center of the sun!"). But any genie that would obey "no adverse consequences" would also just obey "do the best thing you can do for me."
Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 6:54 am
by Josh_Kablack
Well if you're really dealing with a jerkface MC, I suggest simply wishing to know the answer to a cleverly disguised NP-hard problem. The Knapsack problem has all sorts of in-character loot collection applications and it's not hard to spin a yarn about wanting to see every Village in Faerun to adapt the Traveling Salesman Problem.
Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 7:44 am
by Maxus
My usual counter to the genie problem is "I'll use one of the wishes on your behalf. Don't screw me around and we can make this a regular deal, okay?"
Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:04 am
by shadzar
TheFlatline wrote:shadzar wrote:OgreBattle wrote:Can you wish for the genie to go kill itself
that is one of the few things that Robin Williams said was not allowed. no killing people and you cant make someone fall in love with you (free will and all that.)
Good thing a djinn isn't a person then isn't it?
and djinn cant grant wishes either unless they are noble. and noble only have to grant 3 before they are free.
being effectively elementals, could you command any other elemental to kill itself... NO.
D&D fucked up genies long ago into just being elementals rather than the thing from Aladdin's lamp, Shazzam, etc.
Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:37 pm
by JigokuBosatsu
SCP-738 wrote:Test 7: Sheldon Katz, Esq., senior counsel with the Foundation's legal department.
Result: At commencement of test, Mr. Katz presented the entity with a notarized, apostilled affidavit stating that he was participating in the test on his own behalf and not as agent for the Foundation. Approximately forty-one hours after the commencement of the test, Mr. Katz lapsed into unconsciousness due to exhaustion. Mr. Katz described the appearance of the entity as identical to his first-year contracts professor from law school, but he declined to describe the nature of the offer that had been made. He reported that just prior to his blacking out, he had been in the midst of negotiating a precise technical definition of the word "shall". Katz stated that the current working draft of the agreement that he and the entity had been drafting was at least nine hundred pages long at that moment, exclusive of exhibits and schedules, and that he regretted not keeping a copy for his form file. A red leather envelope, smelling of sulphur, was found on Mr. Katz's person, which contained a handwritten note reading "Please come back any time. I haven't had so much fun in years." Mr. Katz has requested reassignment.
Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 4:09 pm
by name_here
Honestly, if the Genie is intent on actively being a dick, I would recommend simply giving up. Trying to constrain one will simply lead to an infinite spiral of legalese against a much older and more experienced entity. Also, in DnD 3.X specifically, the Wish description straight-up says that exceeding the recommended power bound can result in only a partial fulfillment.
You would have a far better shot with a genie who just fulfills a stated wish with neither deliberate fuckery nor extra help.