The Gaming Den

I'm trying to make a list of things every D&D character should to be able to do, and when they need to be able to do it.

So far I have:

Combat: Something to do every round, e.g.:
[*] Damage
[*] Save-or-lose
[*] Battlefield control
[*] Buffs of the large variety
Travel:
1-5: Ability to overcome mundane obstacles, such as canyons and rivers
6-10: Flight or equivalent
11-15: Ability to reach other planes
Noncombat:
1-5: Do something to prepare for an encounter (e.g., scouting)
6-10: Do something to prepare for an adventuring day (e.g., long-duration buffs)
11-15: Do something in the nation-management minigame (e.g., have an army)
16-20: Do something to start some other party of schmucks on their own campaign (e.g., move mountains)
Information:
8-13: Some sort of magical information-gathering ability

I thought about doing this exact thread for the purposes of being able to crank out relatively standardized homebrew D&D classes in an even more orderly and machinegun-like fashion than is already possible. Now that it's come, I feel woefully underprepared in that I got lazy and stopped thinking about it.

Why magical information gathering specifically, and why does it only matter for 6 levels in the middle?

Voss wrote:Why magical information gathering specifically, and why does it only matter for 6 levels in the middle?

In the case of that, I think Radiant was getting at less "It works in this level range" and more "If you don't have it by this point you're going to not be very useful since now everything that happens going forward is linked to magic in one form or another."

K wrote:The Five Cornerstones to Adventuring

Wow, that's crazy helpful. I'll be sure to edit my lycanthrope paragon class to meet these standards.

Corsair114 wrote:In the case of that, I think Radiant was getting at less "It works in this level range" and more "If you don't have it by this point you're going to not be very useful since now everything that happens going forward is linked to magic in one form or another."

Yeah, that's pretty much what I meant.

So, I was thinking.

What constitutes a level appropriate combat action at various levels? Let's say 1, 6, 11, 16.

My understanding is that, generally, a ranged damage attack should do about {Level}d6 damage per round, and a melee damage attack should do about twice that.

I have no idea what forms of save-or-suck and save-or-lose effects are appropriate at what levels, with what scopes, and with what frequencies.

Anyone notice how these things seem to follow spell progression?

Best example of that would be Flight by the time you reach level 5, for obvious reasons.

RadiantPhoenix wrote:So, I was thinking.

What constitutes a level appropriate combat action at various levels? Let's say 1, 6, 11, 16.

My understanding is that, generally, a ranged damage attack should do about {Level}d6 damage per round, and a melee damage attack should do about twice that.

I have no idea what forms of save-or-suck and save-or-lose effects are appropriate at what levels, with what scopes, and with what frequencies.

I like what was said in another thread:

Hicks wrote:After a bit of thought, the answer is Yes. The Cleric class in the player's handbook is an example of what is and is not appropriate for a monster of any CR from 1 to 20. If you are looking for a primary beatstick monster, look to the Barbarian, and a primary spellcaster is a Wizard, but the best example of a "level appropriate" blend of both is the Cleric. Use the Elite Array and the NPC equipment list in the DMG when determining swag carried that can help them.

So there you go, Cleric is the measure of D&D leel progression.

Some example level 1 abilities:

Damage:

• Greatsword (2d6+5 melee with power attack)
• Crossbow (1d8 ranged)

Debuff:

• Tanglefoot bag (entangle on-hit (-2 to hit and -4 Dex; half movement speed) with a DC15 reflex save to avoid being immobilized. The goop has more HP than you, but can also be broken by a DC17 strength check)
• Thunderstone (10ft burst; DC 15 save or be deafened. in addition to the obvious effects, takes a –4 penalty on initiative and has a 20% chance to miscast and lose any spell with a verbal component that it tries to cast.)

Save-or-lose:

• Color spray (15ft cone; Will save or be stunned for 2d4 rounds, basically)
• Sleep (10ft burst; will save or fall asleep for 10 rounds)

Battlefield control:

• Smokestick (10ft cube of fog)
• Silent Image (five 10ft cubes of "stuff" that blocks sight and might make someone go around)

EDIT: Made not quite so huge

icyshadowlord wrote:Anyone notice how these things seem to follow spell progression?

Best example of that would be Flight by the time you reach level 5, for obvious reasons.

It's really the only way. You have to start with the most popular power progression and model everything else after that if you intend to even pretend to be making a balanced game.

Further thoughts: How many orcs with axes, bows, and chainmail do you need to be able to personally beat all at once in five or so rounds?

Level 1: One. (1)
Level 6: A squad. (6)
Level 11: All of them. (An army of a hundred thousand)
Level 16: All of them forever. (Infinity)

I don't think an SRD Wizard could do either the level 11 or level 16 thing in under a minute.

Yeah, I realized afterwards that the time limit thing should probably not be there.

EDIT: Clarification: After you posted your reply, but before I read your reply.

K wrote:The Five Cornerstones to Adventuring

I like that "Not Dying" is a cornerstone, and I think that the "Fighting Man" version of Not Dying should be something akin to the old classic "he died fighting, got sent to hell, and then kept fighting until he escaped".

Lokathor wrote:

K wrote:The Five Cornerstones to Adventuring

I like that "Not Dying" is a cornerstone, and I think that the "Fighting Man" version of Not Dying should be something akin to the old classic "he died fighting, got sent to hell, and then kept fighting until he escaped".

Lost on the Road of Death.

RadiantPhoenix wrote:I'm trying to make a list of things every D&D character should to be able to do, and when they need to be able to do it.

[*] Battlefield control

i have to disagree here with the simple term as every character does not need this as the simple term implies. maybe further details or description of what is meant is needed?

while the game isnt only about killing things and taking their stuff, it is one way for a character to be run, and as such does not require being able to control the battlefied at all, jsut to stay alive and kill things ala Gimli from LotR.

shadzar wrote:

RadiantPhoenix wrote:I'm trying to make a list of things every D&D character should to be able to do, and when they need to be able to do it.

[*] Battlefield control

i have to disagree here with the simple term as every character does not need this as the simple term implies. maybe further details or description of what is meant is needed?

Battlefield Control is just one example of a combat action, and the requirement is, "one level appropriate combat action".

I do recognize that not every character needs to be able to do everything in combat.

then yes, every character needs to be able to do something in combat, since it is a high yield area of an RPG and specifically D&D.

So, let's run down the core classes (or their tome equivalents), and see how they stack up to this list:

1. Barbarian: Tome
2. Bard: SRD
3. Cleric: SRD
4. Druid: SRD
5. Fighter: Tome
6. Monk: Tome
7. Paladin: "Tome" Kantian
8. Ranger: Hypothetical
9. Rogue: SRD
10. Sorcerer: SRD
11. Wizard: SRD

Combat:

1. Barbarian: Smack with weapon
2. Bard: Silent Image
3. Cleric: Smack with weapon
4. Druid: WILD SHAPE!
5. Fighter: Smack with weapon
6. Monk: Smack with fist
7. Paladin: Smack with weapon
8. Ranger: Stabby
9. Rogue: Stab in the jibblies
10. Sorcerer: 9001 different spells. For sake of argument, Silent Image.
11. Wizard: 9001 different spells. For sake of argument, Silent Image.

Travel:

1. Barbarian: STR+Athletic skills, ???, ???
2. Bard: Skill points, Gaseous Form, ???
3. Cleric: Water Breathing, Air Walk, Plane Shift
4. Druid: Wild Shape, Wild Shape, ?Find the Path?
5. Fighter: STR+Athletic Skills, ?Crafting?, ?Crafting?
6. Monk: Kung Fu Jump, Air Walk Style, Gate grandmaster fighting style
7. Paladin: STR + Athletic Skills, Flying Mount, ???
8. Ranger: Outdoorsmanship?, ???, ???
9. Rogue: Athletic skills, ???, ???
10. Sorcerer: Spider Climb, Fly, Plane Shift
11. Wizard: Spider Climb, Fly, Plane Shift

Information:

1. Barbarian: ???
2. Bard: Bardic Knowledge
3. Cleric: Divination spells. For sake of argument, Divination.
4. Druid: Divination spells. For sake of argument, Find the Path.
5. Fighter: ???
6. Monk: ???
7. Paladin: ???
8. Ranger: ? Some kind of spell ?
9. Rogue: ???
10. Sorcerer: 9001 divination spells. For sake of argument, Locate Creature.
11. Wizard: 9001 divination spells. For sake of argument, Locate Creature.

Noncombat:

1. Barbarian: ?Fast Healing?, ???, Call the Horde, ???
2. Bard: Invisibility, Identify, ???, ???
3. Cleric: 9001 spells. For sake of argument, Cure Light Wounds, Animate Dead, Planar Ally, Miracle
4. Druid: 9001 Spells. For sake of argument, Barkskin, Reincarnate, Move Earth, Somethingsomething
5. Fighter: ???, Crafting, Minions? they're not quite in the class..., ???
6. Monk: ???, ???, ???, ???
7. Paladin: Healing, Break Enchantment, ???, ???
8. Ranger: ???, ???, ???, ???
9. Rogue: Scouting, ???, ???, ???
10. Sorcerer: 9001 spells. For sake of argument, Invisibility, Explosive Runes, Planar Binding, Wish
11. Wizard: 9001 spells. For sake of argument, Invisibility, Explosive Runes, Planar Binding, Wish

Well, I know which of these classes I want to play. (protip: look for the classes without ??? entries)

--- --- ---

EDIT: So how do your custom classes stack up? (pointed at people in general, not anyone in particular)

I think you're omitting just how well the Rogue's skillpoints scale, in that diplomacying and sneaking work pretty much all the time provided you can get a persisted mind blank going and take darkstalker.

Korgan0 wrote:I think you're omitting just how well the Rogue's skillpoints scale, in that diplomacying and sneaking work pretty much all the time provided you can get a persisted mind blank going and take darkstalker.

The fact that those things are mandatory kind of undermines the point.


Though it would be cool if you got the benefits of darkstalker by taking more ranks in hide, and could get a persistent mindblank effect by having enough sense motive ranks. Basically skills getting passive supernatural effects that help make their more general schtick work.

Alter Self (Bard, Wizard, Sorcerer) covers the travel 1-10 criteria, due to forms with a burrow, climb, fly, and/or swim speed.

brized wrote:Alter Self (Bard, Wizard, Sorcerer) covers the travel 1-10 criteria, due to forms with a burrow, climb, fly, and/or swim speed.

I didn't list all of the abilities, just one for each checkbox as an example.

(I forgot about Alter Self, actually...)