The Gaming Den

So here is a link to all of Talislanta free from the publisher. Lots of free RPG material that can be adapted to other systems.

I was thinking of looking it over and posting about it.

Thanks, K.

Oh, man, I've been reading the d20 edition, on the basis of being able to understand mechanics quickly.

The Xambrians are either trolling or a Mary Sue race.

Here's the highlights:

-Xambrians are tall, white-skinned, black-haired people who were almost exterminated by a dark cult. Only a few survivors escaped the purge. The survivors dedicated themselves to revenge. Oh, Medium Sized, +2 Wis

-So now they're all wizard-hunters as a vocation and hobby. Newborn children are left with non-Xambrian friends so they can continue hunting the reincarnated Torquarans

-The children grow up unhappy and being made fun of, and on 'the eve of their 13th birthday" they get a vision from an ancestral spirit that tells them the racial history and what their destiny now is. They then get training from the ancestor spirits. They also hear voices nagging them unless their actively pursuing the revenge quest, and detect magic. At level 3, they get a special scaling magic sword that freaks people out.

-Eventually, they'll be notified that a Torquaran has reincarnated and they'll be directed to "the place called Omen, the mountain of skulls" where they'll be told how to find the Torquaran and get the official go-ahead for the quest and "will not rest until he or she has carried out the vendetta."

I seriously can't tell if it's trolling or not.

Well that's the neatest take I've seen on Fantasy jewish nazi hunters yet.

OgreBattle wrote:Well that's the neatest take I've seen on Fantasy jewish nazi hunters yet.

Oh, really? I got more of a Woden's Folk vibe from that. As in, that race is exactly the political template for one of those cretins -- down to the martyrdom, racial vendetta, brainwashing of children, and persecution complex. The only real difference between that race and Woden's Folk propaganda is that the latter admits that it's 'modern'.

Harken and respond to the call of the War-Arrow, that summons the host to defend the Kinfolk, or to avenge wrongs done to the Kinfolk. A warrior’s death in the struggle for the freedom and survival of the Folk secures a place with the Gods in Walhalla. Woden awaits the brave in the Halls of Valhalla.

Lago PARANOIA wrote:

OgreBattle wrote:Well that's the neatest take I've seen on Fantasy jewish nazi hunters yet.

Oh, really? I got more of a Woden's Folk vibe from that. As in, that race is exactly the political template for one of those cretins -- down to the martyrdom, racial vendetta, brainwashing of children, and persecution complex. The only real difference between that race and Woden's Folk propaganda is that the latter admits that it's 'modern'.

Harken and respond to the call of the War-Arrow, that summons the host to defend the Kinfolk, or to avenge wrongs done to the Kinfolk. A warrior’s death in the struggle for the freedom and survival of the Folk secures a place with the Gods in Walhalla. Woden awaits the brave in the Halls of Valhalla.

'

It's seriously like Generic Fantasy Protagonist. Come from a lost bloodline? Check. Raised by non-family? Check. Destiny is revealed as you come of age? Check. Inherit sweet magic sword? Check. Go on a quest to destroy an evil wizard? Check.

The only thing that makes me unable to tell if it's commentary is that the Xambrians hear voices (that's seriously the name of the ability. "Voices"). So, I dunno.

As for the rest of Talishanta, it shows that they tried to make what they thought would be a functional world. They certainly like scaled creatures--Catdracs are little lizard-cats, and there's Equses, which are lizardy horses.

Maxus wrote:It's seriously like Generic Fantasy Protagonist.

Yeah, except for the shadowy genocide revenge fantasy where children are constantly pestered by ancestor spirits to commit murder against the reincarnated spirits of people who wronged them.

That is pushes it past Generic Fantasy Protagonist Background to something indistinguishable from eliminationist propaganda.

"Eliminationist propaganda"?

If a genocidal murderer dies, and is reincarnated, maybe it's justified to go make him be dead once again.

Like if Hitler was reincarnated, it would seem to be ok for some Jews (or anyone really) to go kill the reincarnated Hitler. It might even be a decent fantasy adventure! "OMG the Dark Lord is reborn, he must be stopped neuhrg."

For those of us who think you have to be punished for the crimes you did, not what you might do, it's pretty fucking horrible.

I can't tell if you guys are not noticing it on purpose or not, but the Xambrians are literally Harry Potter.

I haven't read very much of this at all, but I have this great idea for a character now: A Xambrian Necromancer who just wants the voices to stop. She seeks a way to send (un?)dead to the afterlife to hunt down her whiny ancestors. I would call her: Alian the Abomination

Morality in genre literature and especially roleplaying games based on genre literature is notoriously muddy and protagonist-centric. If a Xambrian is the main character of the story, then the quest against the Torquarans is probably going to be justified and reinforced with some kick-the-dog moments to show that them damned Torquarans are all bad and can't be trusted. Hell, as mentioned, the whole "The dark lord is reborn, he must be stopped!" plot is stock in fantasy. Whether you agree with the designation or not you shouldn't be surprised that these people would be presented as legit justified heroes.

Guyr Adamantine wrote:For those of us who think you have to be punished for the crimes you did, not what you might do, it's pretty fucking horrible.

Ok. But it's not "what you might do", it's what you've already done. Because you are Hitler, and you have been reincarnated. So your body is different, but you are still Hitler and you are a genocidal national socialist maniac dude who put people in ovens. EVIL IS REBORN.

It might be a different kind of reincarnation, like just some of the raw "soulstuff" is recycled and then basically an entirely new person results. Then clearly one's moral responsibility is different. But even then it would still create an interesting fantasy world faction of evil dudes who carry out their fanatical vendettas by killing innocent children who have a fragment of the essence of an evil dude's soul inside the.m

I suppose it comes down to whether the Torquarans remember what they did or not.

Maxus wrote:I suppose it comes down to whether the Torquarans remember what they did or not.

But then you're saying that if they didn't reincarnate but did have some form or racial memories it would be ok to genocide baby Torquarans for remembering the crimes their parents committed.

PhoneLobster wrote:

Maxus wrote:I suppose it comes down to whether the Torquarans remember what they did or not.

But then you're saying that if they didn't reincarnate but did have some form or racial memories it would be ok to genocide baby Torquarans for remembering the crimes their parents committed.

I believe there was a Star Trek episode about this...

Maybe more than one, but the one I remember was in DS9 season one.

Reincarnation and racial memories.

Two more reasons consequentialist ethics make more sense than SOULS! shittery.

I think the idea is kind of interesting. The question is, what happens in this setting when people are reincarnated?

So if Mr X genocided some dudes, and dies, then reincarnates into a new body, is the new person still Mr X? Because if he is, it seems to follow that the "new person" who is really Mr X is still responsible for Mr X's crime. Because those are _his own_ crimes. So would he therefore deserving of punishment on his new body, or does he get a "fresh start"?

Or is it essentially a _different_ person with merely some "piece" of Mr X's soul or whatever, and whether the person shares some collective memory with that "piece" or not, is therefore innocent of Mr X's crimes? Punishing the new person because of "collective guilt" would be an interesting motivation for a bad guy.

It raises another question that is kind of interesting if there is magic that can bring people back to life. Like this: if Mr X murdered a dude, maybe he deserves to die. So you kill him and that's the end of it. But what if Mr X murdered a hundred dudes? And furthermore, suppose you have magic that can bring Mr X back to life. Would it be appropriate to resurrect Mr X and kill him again? And again and again, until the 100 victims are "avenged"? Pretty weird. That would be a tough justice system.

My main question is "are reincarnated souls likely to have the same or similar personality as previous incarnations?" If a guy can remembers slaughtering the Liliputians but doesn't particularly care to do so again, I don't see any reason to stop him from settling down and having kids. On the other hand, if a guy can't remember slaughtering the Liliputians but is nevertheless very likely to go knock off the Bigtopians who were next on his genocide list in his past life, I'm game for killing that guy.

RadiantPhoenix wrote:

PhoneLobster wrote:

Maxus wrote:I suppose it comes down to whether the Torquarans remember what they did or not.

But then you're saying that if they didn't reincarnate but did have some form or racial memories it would be ok to genocide baby Torquarans for remembering the crimes their parents committed.

I believe there was a Star Trek episode about this...

Maybe more than one, but the one I remember was in DS9 season one.

Nooo, I'm saying if it's the same personality/being in a new body, with memories and motives intact, I could see it being acceptable to take a bastard out before he can get his feet set.

I apologize for not fully expressing the thought, now that I look at it again.

Maxus wrote: Nooo, I'm saying if it's the same personality/being in a new body, with memories and motives intact, I could see it being acceptable to take a bastard out before he can get his feet set.

I apologize for not fully expressing the thought, now that I look at it again.

But memories != motives. I remember plenty of shit that I did that I have no inclination to repeat.

So, I think Maxus' point is that Hitler has just been skinned to a different body. Everything else is the same -- memories, personality, motives, etc. This also means that Hitler will continue to be evil and commit evil acts.
---

It's a pathetic idea but I think that's what the devs probably intended but didn't implement it properly.

I'm sure what they're up to is in the books SOMEWHERE, but that's a lot to read. I'll check, but I did find a reference to them being necromancers.

So Re-Skinned Hitler could be a thing they're trying for.

Edit:

Instead, the Torquarans struck an unholy pact with the arch-devil Zahur, who used an ancient incantation to turn them into reincarnators: malign spirits cloaked in an aura that renders them untouchable by Death. In this manner, the Torquarans acquired a form of near-immortality. They became capable of possessing the physical bodies of living creatures at will, and returning time and time again from the dead. Only if vanquished by a Xambrian can these vile spiritforms finally be claimed by Death and delivered to their final judgement.

And they killed the Xambrians because they saw the Xambrians as an inferior race. And wanted lots of ritual sacrifices.

As an aside, they really should have chosen a different word than "reincarnate" for that process.

Maxus wrote:

Only if vanquished by a Xambrian can these vile spiritforms finally be claimed by Death and delivered to their final judgement.

Based on what I saw in the thread, I can't blame the Torquarans here. I see every reason to exterminate a race of people who can't help but be supernaturally motivated to exterminate your people and are uniquely suited to doing that.

"Talislanta has always been about the setting, and as such, matters of balance are largely ignored."

As direct quotes from the main book go, I'm not sure that much more needs to be said.