The Gaming Den

I am starting a new D&D game. We are using 3e, and I'm a little annoyed about it.

We should have a real, definitive replacement for 3e by now. It has been almost 15 years since that game came out.

WotC can't seem to provide a good replacement. 3.5 didn't really make anything substantially better. 4e broke too greatly with tradition and totally sucked. 5e is pathetically trying to return to tradition and it looks extremely lame. Our only hope would be for them to go back and support older editions with new stuff, or scrap 5e and do AD&D Third Edition.

Paizo hasn't replaced anything. Pathfinder is simply a bunch of house rules for 3e D&D with good production values. Pathfinder just illustrates the dominance of 3e. Paizo has so far failed to make meaningful improvements to the 3e system. Maybe someday they will be able to use their leadership position to make a Pathfinder 2 that really improves 3e, and it will win the hearts and minds of the larger part of the D&D community. But it is unlikely they have the creative design muscle to make a true improvement to 3e. Besides, it appears very lucrative for them to continue releasing mostly-lame 3e accessories well into the future.

So will 3e with houserules be the best we'll ever have for D&D?

It seems hard to replace it, because of the dominance it established by means of the OGL. The community kind of owns the D&D game now, albeit not in the same way Hasbro does. It would take a powerful influence in the market to create consensus about the "right way" forward at this point.

Yeah, the DnD brand is just shit right now.

The only time in history when DnD made a significant leap of technical understanding was the conversion from 2nd edition the 3rd. That's it. 1st edition was the experimental "what would happen if we did this" game, 2nd edition was shitty because it was a slightly tweaked 1st edition instead of a new game, 4th edition was a jumbled mess that abandoned everything good they had ever learned about design, and 5th edition is a hilarious pile of fail.

Don't look to the DnD brand for the future of gaming- I'm almost convinced 3rd edition was created by accident, because literally every other edition has been terrible and filled with the worst ideas imaginable. Your best bet is to either hope a different company with actually talented people create a fantasy adventure game with coherent rules, or make one yourself. Or wait for the New Edition from these very forums, but I doubt that will ever get made.

We'll see what happens to the property after 5E D&D crashes and burns.

If Hasbro just sits on it and uses it to churn out interminable evergreen stuff such that it becomes the next Peanuts, then yes. If Hasbro sells the IP to a company that's willing to pick it up like, say, Nintendo or Bioware then it might stand a chance. If I was Bioware, I would very strongly think about paying 7-digits in money for the entire IP; Dragon Age, Mass Effect, and KOTOR aren't panning out as well as they'd like and returning to something reasonably safe before it shits the bed might be their best bet.

Put money on Hasbro just sitting on the property and not doing anything with it, though. Even though D&D will depreciate over time, it won't be so much money lost that a long-term gamble of D&D getting a surge in retro-popularity or having a really good movie made of it a couple decades later would be foolish.

Who cares?

There are other things to play, 3.X/3.Tome still rocks the house and there are enough people who cry about the same goddamned thing with other editions (outside of 4e) that this sentiment is both myopic and pointless.

e: You also lose in the court of public opinion thanks to Pathfinder being a thing that is "better than 3.5" in the view of people who aren't us. So no. Nothing will ever be better than 3.X because it's the game you latched onto like a leech.

infected slut princess wrote: So will 3e with houserules be the best we'll ever have for D&D?

Tomes is the most solid 3.X product out yet, though if it were a standalone game I figure skill points should be replaced by skill proficiencies, and the skill list pared down.

It's also the biggest influence on my fantasy heartbreaker, with the Tome Monk fighting styles as the basis for martial techniques, Tome Fiendish Spheres the basis for magic use... but I'm not set on what's the most roguish mechanic, I'm thinking the assassin's observation ability but you can cash in the points for different effects.

Lago PARANOIA wrote:If Hasbro sells the IP to a company that's willing to pick it up like, say, Nintendo or Bioware then it might stand a chance. If I was Bioware, I would very strongly think about paying 7-digits in money for the entire IP; Dragon Age, Mass Effect, and KOTOR aren't panning out as well as they'd like and returning to something reasonably safe before it shits the bed might be their best bet.

I don't know if Bioware would do a good job. They are, after all, the same folks who thought that putting every ability on a global cooldown would increase tactical variety from round to round. They would also make you sit through hours of NPCs' talking exposition at you. So ...

There are probably some other devs that could do wonders with it, even some that have experience in CRPGs, like CD Projekt RED. But they're doing Cyberpunk right now. Can you imagine if the original Fallout 1/2 or Planescape:Torment teams were allowed free rein on it?

I do wonder what Team Silent could do with the IP, though. Or while I'm fucking dreaming, Valve.

Mask_De_H wrote:Who cares?

There are other things to play, 3.X/3.Tome still rocks the house and there are enough people who cry about the same goddamned thing with other editions (outside of 4e) that this sentiment is both myopic and pointless.

e: You also lose in the court of public opinion thanks to Pathfinder being a thing that is "better than 3.5" in the view of people who aren't us. So no. Nothing will ever be better than 3.X because it's the game you latched onto like a leech.

Nah suck a dick. It's not the best product because of some emotional attachment I have to it it's the best product because it is obviously the best product by any rational set of metrics. Even the competing products people are mentioning are just house rule sets of 3.E. That's fucking all Tome and Pathfinder are. If the best products in the world are just your product with stickers and flames painted on then you've clearly made something incredible.

3.E is the best thing there is and it's nearing 2 decades in age and that's something of an embarrassment. I think it's a call to action to people like us to get off our fucking asses and do something about it because I think most of us are just expecting the cavalry to arrive and make us a great game we've been waiting to play for 2 decades. I think the time has come to become aware that that will absolutely not happen anymore and we are legitimately some of the best hopes for that future. We here, a group of genuine [EDITED] on a tiny niche board full of fantasy fappery are seriously the Obi-wan kenobi's of the roleplaying world at the moment. I'm not saying that because I want it to be true I'm saying that because despite my desperate desire for it not to be it is clearly depressingly true.

I genuinely think if anything moves the TTRPG world forwards it will genuinely be because Koumei or someone took a risk, took time off, and published something.

What has Valve ever done to make you think they would do a good job with D&D? Is it that TF2 has diverse classes that work together, or is it just kind of the generalized worshipful "Valve is the best at everything they deign to bother with" attitude?

So much I strongly concur with in this thread here.

infected slut princess wrote:We should have a real, definitive replacement for 3e by now. It has been almost 15 years since that game came out.

Same here, lot of 3rd edition's outdated nuances I find rather tiring for making Fantasy characters based on more current characters (Like League Of Legends vast characters). As well as the needs of a better built RPG would make it easier on DM's new and veteran alike.

Mask_De_H wrote:Who cares?

Aside from blind RPG fans, I'd say many do care, this game has long since become tired, and a source of great miscommunication for far too many RPG groups everywhere. Though Tome does help to revitalize the game, it's not the all-bearing solution we want it to be. Continuing the aggressive, Rocket-Tag styled gameplay, seems to leave out other interesting tactical elements (retreat, defensive gameplay) people would like to do in RPG's. Not to mention D&D's style of magic system is quite insane far as being used to emulate Heroic-Fantasy.

I think if we're not going to get a New edition any time soon, then we should at least revitalize other parts of the game on the DM side as well. Such as making [Tome] version of various monsters, as it's a sad day when the Totemist class's abilities are far more exciting than the monsters they're themed after. Though I'm not saying everything should get the treatment, given past discussion of how it'd be a 500-900 page monstrosity that nobody would want to play.

deanruel87 wrote:.. I think the time has come to become aware that that will absolutely not happen anymore and we are legitimately some of the best hopes for that future.

I genuinely think if anything moves the TTRPG world forwards it will genuinely be because Koumei or someone took a risk, took time off, and published something.

This is something I've been saying on this board over the time I've been here. With such a collection of people with such good ideas here, they seem to be the "Last Hope" we truly have for RPG kind. They ARE liken to a group of D&D PC's, banding together to take on truly monstrous threats nobody else ever could.

However, I do recognize the issues being in financing a team,advertising, getting a workable 5-person team to work together/agree on the vision at hand (shouldn't be too hard, if they're as tired as we are), and the desire for incentives like pay. To any consolation, I know Meikle641?, has been attempting to form a company, using some previous Den works to be used, and advertised for it as proper. So yeah, I still see the Gaming Den as a place that has potential, and an increasing need for that potential to be tapped for the good of Tabletop RPG's.

John Magnum wrote:What has Valve ever done to make you think they would do a good job with D&D?

Their Previous works have always seemed to have a touch of quality in some way to them. Kinda like with Genndy Tartakovsky being good at making shows, Joss Whedon seemingly good at writing, and Den's own members like Frank or Caedrus being good at design (or have very good ideas for designs at the very least). If not some objective way, their works always seem to ooze quality, or a consistent style that seems to be recognizably good quality. However yeah, Valve has TF2 down, and they spend long bits of time to get things right is a good reason there.

John Magnum wrote:What has Valve ever done to make you think they would do a good job with D&D? Is it that TF2 has diverse classes that work together, or is it just kind of the generalized worshipful "Valve is the best at everything they deign to bother with" attitude?

Mostly, they just bother to put time and effort and care into their products, which is something I really can't say about the majority of big-name developers out there.

Now, if we get away from big-name devs and into the indie crowd, things get a little more interesting, but also a bit riskier.

John Magnum wrote:Is it that TF2 has diverse classes that work together, or is it just kind of the generalized worshipful "Valve is the best at everything they deign to bother with" attitude?

Even counting fail like the indefinite delay of Half-Life, Valve is one of the more competent game publishing industries out there. I would not feel bad if Valve got the IP.

However, I still think that of the major gaming companies it would be best in the hands of Bioware. As they have the most experience with TTRPG adaptations. There's no guarantee that experience with making D&D-like cRPGs will mean experience with TTRPGs, but I would still favor them over companies with otherwise good track records making and publishing games like Valve and Nintendo.

Imagine if you will that Valve got ahold of the IP for D&D. Would anyone on staff be familiar with the rules of the previous editions? Would anyone know what made TTRPGs work and how to play to their strengths in a way that cRPGs can't?

deanruel87 wrote:

Mask_De_H wrote:Who cares?

There are other things to play, 3.X/3.Tome still rocks the house and there are enough people who cry about the same goddamned thing with other editions (outside of 4e) that this sentiment is both myopic and pointless.

e: You also lose in the court of public opinion thanks to Pathfinder being a thing that is "better than 3.5" in the view of people who aren't us. So no. Nothing will ever be better than 3.X because it's the game you latched onto like a leech.

Nah suck a dick. It's not the best product because of some emotional attachment I have to it it's the best product because it is obviously the best product by any rational set of metrics. Even the competing products people are mentioning are just house rule sets of 3.E. That's fucking all Tome and Pathfinder are. If the best products in the world are just your product with stickers and flames painted on then you've clearly made something incredible.

3.E is the best thing there is and it's nearing 2 decades in age and that's something of an embarrassment. I think it's a call to action to people like us to get off our fucking asses and do something about it because I think most of us are just expecting the cavalry to arrive and make us a great game we've been waiting to play for 2 decades. I think the time has come to become aware that that will absolutely not happen anymore and we are legitimately some of the best hopes for that future. We here, a group of genuine [EDITED] on a tiny niche board full of fantasy fappery are seriously the Obi-wan kenobi's of the roleplaying world at the moment. I'm not saying that because I want it to be true I'm saying that because despite my desperate desire for it not to be it is clearly depressingly true.

I genuinely think if anything moves the TTRPG world forwards it will genuinely be because Koumei or someone took a risk, took time off, and published something.

Ignoring the games that have tried to bring Magical Tea Party into something crunchier like FATE Core or Marvel Heroic, or the games that do a decent enough job of adapting their source material like SR4, Legends of the Wulin or Fiasco, this is the exact fucking argument shadzar would make about 2e, which we would roundly mock him for. Now I know you're a reactionary fuckstick from the Notnia thread but at least try to come up with something concrete.

You are not Obi wan, you are not a special snowflake, you're a grognard in denial. The RPG world passed you by and you don't even realize it.

The complementary barrel of cocks is in the green room, dean.

FATE Core or Marvel Heroic, or the games that do a decent enough job of adapting their source material like SR4, Legends of the Wulin or Fiasco, this is the exact fucking argument shadzar would make about 2e, which we would roundly mock him for. Now I know you're a reactionary fuckstick from the Notnia thread but at least try to come up with something concrete.

You are not Obi wan, you are not a special snowflake, you're a grognard in denial. The RPG world passed you by and you don't even realize it.

The complementary barrel of cocks is in the green room, dean.

Blow me. Make me a series of measurement sticks to judge games by and lets poll that shit. Genre emulation, fast play, ease of teaching. You fucking pick the parameters and measure it out. SR4 is cool, I like it. FATE is fine. Weighing all the pros and cons together they are not as good as 3.E for a random play experience. I would imagine given it's titanic sales and the fact that there are 2 Major player products in the market that are just mild refurbishments of it that that opinion is not unique to me.

This is a demonstrable position through data that will prove you wrong. The RPG market is not passing me by it's fucking atrophying. RPG product sales are not hitting the numbers they used to in the 3.E days which indicates a considerable decline in product success and probably in quality of product. Pick whatever parameters you want, we can hash those out, measure things up, and I'll wager good odds that 3.E comes out the victor and if it doesn't I'll bet anything it's in the top 3. Mixtures of market success, critical success, longevity, and copycat products are important and much more convincing than you telling us that you're hip on the gamin scene and you'll be young forever!!!

Your mixture of cross-thread shitting and emotional grandstanding have been received and they are not convincing because evidence can show that you are stupid and a big stupid idiot baby.

Mask_De_H wrote:Who cares?

Oh yeah, what was I thinking? Why would I want an officially supported system that improves upon 3e, when I have "Tomes", a hodgepodge of incomplete solutions grafted onto a deeply flawed game engine. Seriously, you're an idiot. "Who cares if the rules are bad because we can make house rules!" You know, there is a reason people who make that argument are met with derision and contempt.

There are other things to play, 3.X/3.Tome still rocks the house and there are enough people who cry about the same goddamned thing with other editions (outside of 4e) that this sentiment is both myopic and pointless.

So when 2E was old and tired, you would have said it was pointless to yearn for a new better edition, because 2E was still pretty fun and we had massive binders full of customizations and house rules that made it better, and some people thought 1E was better anyway. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

3.tome "rocks the house" sure. I'm starting a 3.x/Tomes/whatever game and I expect it to be fun. It's still a big mess because it's anchored to 3e. Look at the Tome PDF sometime and run a campaign with it. It's full of incomplete stuff and leaves the DM to fill tons of blanks.

And why should we care if if people like Shadzar fap to 2nd Edition all night long. What the hell.

e: You also lose in the court of public opinion thanks to Pathfinder being a thing that is "better than 3.5" in the view of people who aren't us. So no. Nothing will ever be better than 3.X because it's the game you latched onto like a leech.

What the hell does this even mean? I don't give a fuck if Pathfinder players think Pathfinder is better anymore than I care that Shadzar thinks 2e is better. I play with 3e because it's the least bad system for a certain kind of fantasy gaming that I want. But it's still a fucked up system and we should get a better one without having to slave over a mishmash of 10 billion house rules.

Your contribution to this thread is worse than useless and rates 11 out of 10 on the "totally retarded" scale. If someone took a massive diarrhea shit in your bed I would laugh for like two whole minutes.

infected slut princess wrote:We should have a real, definitive replacement for 3e by now. It has been almost 15 years since that game came out.

It won't happen for a long time. The reason?
This:

4e broke too greatly with tradition and totally sucked.

Voting with your wallet works, so expect every single ttrpg publisher to rehash the old shit for a while.

ishy wrote:

infected slut princess wrote:We should have a real, definitive replacement for 3e by now. It has been almost 15 years since that game came out.

It won't happen for a long time. The reason?
This:

4e broke too greatly with tradition and totally sucked.

Voting with your wallet works, so expect every single ttrpg publisher to rehash the old shit for a while.

It's frustrating when companies misinterpret bad sales.

infected slut princess wrote:Look at the Tome PDF sometime and run a campaign with it. It's full of incomplete stuff and leaves the DM to fill tons of blanks.

Something we're, slowly, trying to fix.

Pathfinder is okay to replace 3E. I'd probably start with that as a basis for house rules anyway, because it does a lot of basic spell fixes, like making polymorph not so crazy. Also the fact that their SRD is way more comprehensive just helps for getting people to play the game that may not own all the books. It's more or less my go-to D&D game for that reason.

That being said, all editions are horribly flawed. Mostly it just comes down to what is the most fun to actually play. Modern D&D just isn't very fun to me. The gameplay of D&DN isn't terrible, as it at least lets you do interesting things and it's fast moving, unlike 4E, but the player coddling in next is sickening and will ultimately kill it. Everything in team monster is just weaker for no reason. They have garbage AC, weaker attack bonuses and lower save DCs. Any edition that gives the average joe in plate and a shield a better AC than the entire bestiary (including Asmodeus) is just plain retarded.

3E was the last edition that had monsters that actually had some teeth to them and required some thinking to fight. So long as they stick to the player coddling trend, I just don't see myself ever getting attached to another edition of D&D.

dean wrote:blah blah blah you're a butt and I hate you

RPGs aren't hitting the same numbers because we have MMOs and Cawadooty and Settlers of Cataan and more games that aren't steaming piles of shit compared to the top dog (like 3e to everything in the early 00s or regrettably, oWoD to the clusterfuck that was late-period 2e). The market is split amongst myriad different things and a niche hobby has become even more so because of that. Since 4e was a catastrofuck, there's no monolithic game entity either.

Whatever bullshit metrics you measure games by, you're going to end up believing 3.X is the best game because it's your favorite game and you're on a site that sprung forth from 3.X discussion. Just like those Old School hacks are going to believe whichever incestuous butt-baby of Basic D&D they like is the light and the truth. If you didn't, you wouldn't be here.

Get the fuck over yourself.

No, 3E is not the best D&D we will ever have. It's not even the best D&D we currently have. Don't be an idiot because of nostalgia.

If 3E isn't the best D&D we currently have, let alone the best we've ever had, what is?

virgil wrote:If 3E isn't the best D&D we currently have, let alone the best we've ever had, what is?

CLEARLY OD&D. Because (poorly drawn) boobs. Duh.

codeGlaze wrote:

virgil wrote:If 3E isn't the best D&D we currently have, let alone the best we've ever had, what is?

CLEARLY OD&D. Because (poorly drawn) boobs. Duh.

3E's got ya covered with the nymph, nalfeshnee, and night hag. In color, too!

(Why do they all start with 'n'?)


Edit: Actually, I think the succubus shows a bit of nip, too, and that doesn't start with 'n'. There goes my half-formed conspiracy theory.

1. Best is highly subjective. I can point to several specific areas where improvements over 3e were made in 3.5, Pathfinder and even 4e. I could also point to several areas where each of those editions did the exact opposite of improving on 3e.

2. Barring a major shakeup in management and corporate philosophy, Hasbro is flat out never going to sell the IP. When Next flops, they'll sit on it for a few years and then try taking it in new directions - likely integrating the brand more with their traditional board and card games.

3. Despite my being unlikely to play any sort of RPG for the next few years, there are a couple designers on here who could get me to pitch in like $100 on a Kickstarter campaign if they want to try supplement their day jobs.

D&D is at least better than AD&D by far.

virgil wrote:If 3E isn't the best D&D we currently have, let alone the best we've ever had, what is?

You can ignore krakatoa. He's a 4rry goon.

Clearly the best version of D&D is a handful of notes written on a napkin by Gygax because rules are bad and get in the way of RAELIZARM!