Why designing new roleplaying systems is futile for anyone.

[shadzar]

So you want to design a roleplaying game? Think you have a fancy new idea for a rules system that will be the best? Forget it. You probably aren't even making a roleplaying system, but a rule-playing system.

What is the key difference in a roleplaying system and a ruleplaying system? Well for starters it is how you use the rules. If the rules are the vessel you use to travel through the game, it is a ruleplaying system. This includes fancy "roles" that have been derived from MMO nomenclature. It is like designing physics for a game, before you even decide if it will have gravity. It just doesn't work.

What a roleplaying game is is simply assuming the life of a fictional character per say, and placing your mind in their body. You have no risk of getting hurt even though your character might, and you cannot really see what they see, nor have to smell what they smell; but they are described enough for YOU, the player to make informed decisions.

What has been lost in modern game design thanks to Forge and Robin Laws, and other incompetent hacks that think their next version of Shadowrun will have the perfect system, is that the system is secondary to the game. Will all X smell like Y? Yes says a rule-playing system, and it probably won't even matter because the way something smells will likely have little to no effect on the rules used. If there is no rule for it, then there is no reason to even bother trying to figure it out. It is a dead system like a computer language. Well I shouldn't say dead, but it was lifeless to begin with.

Now you have tons of payers that always complain why the rules don't allow them to make the fiction they want. This is false, but in a way also true. Many times people try to make something that just doesn't fit with the vision of the other payers they are playing with, but it doesn't mean they cannot find people that will fit with the idea. So what does this mean? Aside from visions not matching, there are too many rules in these rule-playing systems that prevent the ideas and visions of the players. Who has the right vision for what a swashbuckelr is and does? Nobody and everybody, because that is something about a vision. What is a vision anyway? It is the imagination of the player. Rule-playing systems lack the ability for anyone to have their own imagination about a swshbuckler is because it has already pre-defined what you are allowed to imagine it to be.

This lack of designing so that the imagination can take the forefront and places RULES-FIRST in both design and application is the downfall of RPGs. It works for wargames like Warhammer, because you have to pick which little pawn you want to play with and have the rules to move and how it attacks, just like other wargames such as Chess, Go, Shoji, etc. Though often those games do not present you with a choice of which type of piece you can play with, unless you play a variant.

In order for ANYONE to be able to design a roleplaying GAME, not system, they must first get back in touch with their own imagination and see what kind of visions they want to show in it, but at the same time make sure NOT to destroy the ability for someone else to have a different vision, at the same table, or even conflicting vision at a table that will never cross paths with the one designing it.

This is how it all began, and this is where it will have to return to, design by imagination, not by rules codification that prevents imagination during use.

[rasmuswagner]

So you want to design a roleplaying game? Think you have a fancy new idea for a rules system that will be the best? Forget it. You probably aren't even making a roleplaying system, but a rule-playing system.

....aaaand we're done.

[Tumbling Down]

[Blicero]

Shadzar, your capitalization is beautiful.

[Josh_Kablack]

Here I thought this might be a topic about market realities and working conditions.

I'm still torn between agreeing with shad's premise and wishing ignore hid thread titles as well as post content.

[JonSetanta]

pff

I am undeterred.

[RobbyPants]

Here I thought this might be a topic about market realities and working conditions.

I'm just going to assume the OP justifies the position by saying that Shad's imagining of 2E is already the bestest game evar, so any further attempts are futile. I'm also going to assume that my assumption is far more concise and grammatically correct than anything actually contained in the OP.

[Vnonymous]

I logged in the first time in at least a year just so I don't have to see Shadzar's posts anymore.

Shame I didn't realise who the thread's OP was until too late.

[radthemad4]

Yes, you can't create a system that everyone is completely satisfied with. However, if you create a system that satisfies people enough that enough players all agree to play, you're successful.

Shadzar, your capitalization is beautiful.

[Scrivener]

Here I thought this might be a topic about market realities and working conditions.

I'm just going to assume the OP justifies the position by saying that Shad's imagining of 2E is already the bestest game evar, so any further attempts are futile. I'm also going to assume that my assumption is far more concise and grammatically correct than anything actually contained in the OP.

It's actually a little cuter than that, he thinks that rules prevent roleplay.

[...You Lost Me]

Best shadzar post for grammar, but worst shadzar post for content.

There must be a saying about that.

[Aryxbez]

I thought this thread was going to have an interesting point...until I realized who the main poster was...


That does bring to question, if we lack the capital (or least, haven't explored the possibility of donation/kickstarter type deal) to move forward this industry, is there anything we can do that'll make difference for all of RPG kind? Is there anyone else currently out there that'll be helping its future? Far as I know, the Den is one of the very few places that could actually make a difference.

[TheFlatline]

Didn't we have a thread where someone basically said this a couple months ago?

I'm glad the Fun Police are on patrol here in the Den. God help me if I ever had unsanctioned fun.

[Leress]

Didn't we have a thread where someone basically said this a couple months ago?

I'm glad the Fun Police are on patrol here in the Den. God help me if I ever had unsanctioned fun.

Well, Phone's thread was more about how to keep your ego in check about making an RPG and not worry about pleasing non existent people or tricking people.

This thread is about how it can't be done because one doesn't have the right mind set for making an RPG with prattle about making "rule playing game" even though every game has rules including RPG. Also it seems to be saying that since the rules exist that people don't have imagination or some shit.

[TheFlatline]

Ah gotcha.

I really don't pay much attention to shadzar unless I can't help it.

Thanks for the clarification.

[TiaC]

Best shadzar post for grammar, but worst shadzar post for content.

There must be a saying about that.

It makes me think about quantum uncertainty and how to get more accurate information about position you must have less accurate information regarding velocity. For shadzar, it seems similar in regard to minimum post quality. For him to have more crazy post content, his grammar must improve. This would imply that if he posted in thumb-typed-text speech he would start to make cogent points.

[Wiseman]

Shadzar, the game is the rules. If you want to avoid ruleplaying, then just go do free-form roleplaying somewhere.

[Koumei]

Shadzar, could you just go dig Gygax up and put his cock in your mouth so you stop talking?

[Mask_De_H]

Shadzar, could you just go dig Gygax up and put his cock in your mouth so you stop talking?

But he's typing; he'd need to cradle Gygax's desiccated balls too.

[Koumei]

I assumed he at least respected Gygax enough not to neglect the balls.

[infected slut princess]

Didn't read Shadzar's original post, but I actually know what he thinks: All you need for the best RPG ever is a character sheet containing the following information:

---
Name: Joe
Equipment: Hammer, loincloth
---

Play make-believe like a 5-year old for everything else. All other rules are superfluous. Except THAC0.

[darkmaster]

pff

I am undeterred.

Are you the wizard?

[Prak]

Ah gotcha.

I really don't pay much attention to shadzar unless I can't help it.

Thanks for the clarification.

I don't even read Shadzar anymore if I can avoid it, I just read responses to Shadzar and that generally gives me a pretty good idea of what he vomited out. Never pegged him for a "R-O-L-E NOT R-O-L-L!!!!!" shithead, but it really shouldn't surprise me.

[angelfromanotherpin]

Never pegged him for a "R-O-L-E NOT R-O-L-L!!!!!" shithead, but it really shouldn't surprise me.

Except that he is also deeply opposed to people creating backstories and getting in character.

Honestly, at this point I'm pretty sure someone could start presenting an opposing view to anything shadzar posts, entirely in quotes from his previous ramblings. Bonus points if they register as razdash to do it.

[MisterDee]

shadzar has been awesome to teach me self control. He posts bullshit, I reply to argue against it, then realize it's a shadzar post and just let it slide.

It's like an interactive self-help book.