Do Summoned Monsters exist outside of the summon?

[OgreBattle]

Do all those badgers and dolphins and unicorns actually exist in their own world but get spirited off to disable traps and heal people, or are they kinda like a simalucrum that just temporarily exists?

If they're real, they just get unsummoned when they 'die', right? So it's not like the Celestial Plains are filled with dead badgers dropping from the sky.

[Lokathor]

Calling
A calling spell transports a creature from another plane to the plane you are on. The spell grants the creature the one-time ability to return to its plane of origin, although the spell may limit the circumstances under which this is possible. Creatures who are called actually die when they are killed; they do not disappear and reform, as do those brought by a summoning spell (see below). The duration of a calling spell is instantaneous, which means that the called creature can’t be dispelled.

Summoning
A summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from, but a summoned object is not sent back unless the spell description specifically indicates this. A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower. It is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can’t be summoned again.

When the spell that summoned a creature ends and the creature disappears, all the spells it has cast expire. A summoned creature cannot use any innate summoning abilities it may have, and it refuses to cast any spells that would cost it XP, or to use any spell-like abilities that would cost XP if they were spells.

There was even a dragon article about going to the outer planes to find your particular summons and then giving them sweet magic gear that they'd then have equipped when you summoned them.

[OgreBattle]

great, I had an idea for a campaign where PC's are summoned soldiers fighting wars for outsiders. Wanted to confirm how D&D handles it

... IS there a way to give PC's the "banished back to wherever they came when hp is 0" effect?

[Prak]

If they're real, they just get unsummoned when they 'die', right? So it's not like the Celestial Plains are filled with dead badgers dropping from the sky.

That would be hilarious. If it didn't have mechanical consequences, I would make "rain of [low-level summon]" a weather condition for planes.

There was even a dragon article about going to the outer planes to find your particular summons and then giving them sweet magic gear that they'd then have equipped when you summoned them.

Hell, you should be able to give them shit when you summon them. I once had a warlock who was solo-ing the dungeon with a wand of trapfindingsummon monster 1 who, on a trip back to town, bought a barrel of apples, summoned a monkey on top, and then dismissed the summon so the monkey could take the barrel back as payment to his troop for repeatedly "dying" horrible "deaths" to traps.

[Desdan_Mervolam]

Back in 2e days, I played a one-shot Planescape module where everyone was an outsider, and they all got summoned by a wizard to kill a rival of his.

[DSMatticus]

great, I had an idea for a campaign where PC's are summoned soldiers fighting wars for outsiders. Wanted to confirm how D&D handles it

... IS there a way to give PC's the "banished back to wherever they came when hp is 0" effect?

That is mostly how summons already work, except it takes 24 hours to reform. If you wanted to make this a thing, you'd just give some outsiders a "Summon Heroes" spell that worked like Summon Monster I, but instead of getting an angry octopus or whatever you get a party of heroes. Also it probably lasts longer than 1/round level. Slap some restraints on it to keep it as a plot macguffin instead of every outsider spellcaster having their own army of heroes.

[Lokathor]

Hell, you should be able to give them shit when you summon them. I once had a warlock who was solo-ing the dungeon with a wand of trapfindingsummon monster 1 who, on a trip back to town, bought a barrel of apples, summoned a monkey on top, and then dismissed the summon so the monkey could take the barrel back as payment to his troop for repeatedly "dying" horrible "deaths" to traps.

Oh you totally can even in the normal rules, but if you give it to them in their home plane then they don't have to spend a round putting it on and stuff each time you summon them.

Normally, if you give an item to them after you summon them it doesn't go back with them. You could houserule that, but whatever.

[Prak]

I kind of like the idea of a party who puts their summons on payroll.

"Lets see... you fought for 4 rounds before being dismissed..."
"Uh, I was poisoned fighting that cobra-demon. That stuff lasts after I'm dismissed."
"Ah, of course. So hazard pay, plus standard healing rate, and on call... comes to 100g."
"You summoned me to fight the cultists too, right as you were knocked out."
"Oh, right. How long did you hold out?"
"7 rounds."
"Oh, very good. That makes it another 70. Here you are, 170g."

[OgreBattle]

If I turn a dude into stone, can he be transported back with a summoned monster?

[Sakuya Izayoi]

I read a Magic: The Gathering novel once. The main character at one point got banished to a wizard's island prison colony, where he kept all his summons while he wasn't using them.

Luckily he wasn't a Pit Fiend user, so mostly the island ended up sectioned off so that the creatures who were particularly alien to one another didn't have to interact.

[Lokathor]

If I turn a dude into stone, can he be transported back with a summoned monster?

Under the normal rules, no. Whatever they show up with is exactly what goes away when the spell is done.

But you could change that I guess if you wanted. Except that'd make all your 1st level spell slots into weird storage locker things.

[Koumei]

I once ran a game where the party were all mephits (using custom "prestige classes" that keep them level-appropriate all the way*), and had been summoned, except the casting had gone wrong. So it starts with them being yanked out of their homes and appearing in an area with some dead goblins and a dead wizard. It appeared that the wizard had failed the Concentration check when getting stabbed, and the spell was complete enough that it went ahead, at the cost of a planar explosion which:

• Made the duration Permanent
• Exploded his brains
• Also killed the weak-ass opposition

It's generally better to use the actual rules to make your plots rather than bullshitting stuff, but as a set-up, it worked pretty well and they went about doing investigation, exploration, killing crap and diplomacy.

*This was a year or so before I knew of the Den/Tomes, but yeah, they worked out pretty similar to the ones Frank had made on nifty

[Wiseman]

Having random spell mishaps when a concentration check is failed could be an interesting thing to add to the game.

[Koumei]

We saw what that does in Dark Heresy. It's not really good, as it mostly just disrupts play. That said, I could maybe see a benefit to have some kind of roll when the caster dies while casting a spell - by making the effects not scale, it would mean people think twice about their Attacks of Opportunity at levels 1 and 2 (along with attacking people who are casting "1 full round" spells) when playing a caster is really frustrating, but makes it a total non-issue later on when playing a caster is just 100% fun 24/7.

Alternatively, it could be something specific to Summon Monster spells. "Blah blah blah first part of the spell creates the link and searches, blah blah the final part of the spell is establishing control... if the spell would normally fail due to a failed Concentration check or death of the caster, the spell still succeeds, but the caster does not control the creatures and (Duration = Permanent) or (It is instead an Instantaneous [Calling] effect)."

[shadzar]

... IS there a way to give PC's the "banished back to wherever they came when hp is 0" effect?

Yeah it is called Magic the Gathering.

if you make a world concept, and your players or DM agrees to it, then what you do hsa nothing to do with what the guidelines say you can or cannot do.

but what happens to your game when all the PCs are sent back to different worlds when they die? what happens to the single PC when it dies and the rest are continuing on? does the player sit out, or can they pick up another "PC" to play, sort of like the Reverse Dungeon idea?

it is YOUR game, play how your table/group wants to play.

[CatharzGodfoot]

This is why I don't like D&D "summon" spells.

If it's going to bring forth a creature from nowhere in particular, with no individual identity, and send it back to nowhere in particular, just be honest and say that you're creating the creature when you cast the spell (as you do with an astral construct). It even makes sense with elementals.

[Prak]

On the subject of creating elementals when you "summon" them, I need to just say:

Fuck gloranthan earth elementals. Fuck them hard in their whole being.

1. No, it doesn't make any goddamned sense for an earth elemental to be a HOLE IN THE GROUND
2. Gnomes are not earth elementals, they are little fae people who like magic and tinkering
3. when I summon an earth elemental, I want a GODDAMNED EARTH-DUDE THAT I CAN PUT ARMOUR ON AND A GIANT MAUL TO AND HAVE SLAM INTO MY FOES

[tussock]

I like the idea of these earth elementals that are landslides and earthquakes and other movements within the earth itself. Tell me more.

It's like how an air elemental is the wind, and a fire elemental is the flame, and a water elemental is the calm spot on a surf beach, and a shadow elemental is the knife in your back.


Also, while gnomes are fae, their home is in the earth. Like goblins are fae who live in the shadows, and Kuo-Toa are faeries of the deep, communing with the sharks and old mother lobster-tits.