"We have interplanetary travel but we fight with swords"

[OgreBattle]

Spaceships and robots are cool, and so are swords so lots of settings combine them all, but what justifications are given for using a sword vs using a laser gun?

Warhammer 40k never explains why chain-axes are still close combat weapons in a world of laser cannons and supersonic fightercraft, but some other settings take the time to make excuses.

In Dune you have shields that will cause nuclear explosions if hit with lasers but slow moving melee attacks can get through, that's pretty neat.

In Gundam, the minovsky particle reactors they use send out signals that jam radar so all combat is at visual range, that's pretty neat.

In Star Wars, only wizards use laser swords and have ways to deflect lasers.

What other good excuses have been made so sci fi warriors can continue to stab one another across the galaxy?

[shadzar]

40k explains it clearly, as does normal physics. Dune even explains 30k use of chainswords. "The slow blade breeches the sheild."

Armor is made for the most dangerous type of weapons. if ultrasmurfs are fighting lasguns and pulse carbines, then they need armor that can stop those. the dagger to the back or super can opener is not really the thing they worry about. this is why some are trained to use CCWs like the chainsword to get in close and prevent the ranged attacks of units.

anytime you can get within range of melle, you have pretty much stopped the ranged weapons effectiveness if your armor is built against the ranged weapons. CCWs and jsut punching someone in the face is what you are left with.

[Prak]

Conceivably resources could be used to justify it. There are a lot of materials you can make into a sword, like crystal and bone, which probably aren't suitable for firearms, and all their metal is tied up in their spaceships. Or they have organic tech, in which case they use swords and, at best, quill shooters or acid sprayers, because the phlebotinum doesn't stretch to organic guns.

[JesterZero]

If I recall, the premise of the Holtzman shields in Dune was not only that they caused nuclear explosions if struck by energy weapons, but they were effective against kinetic attacks in direct proportion to the velocity of the attack.

So bullets largely went ping and swords and knives were the go-to solution for personal combat.

[Ancient History]

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... ancedAlien

[Stahlseele]

Stealth for example.
Energy Weapons and Guns are rarely good for going into a building and silently murdering your way up to your target.
Or if you go with a non lethal close combat character(shame on you!) that works as well of course.
Furthermore, a good close combat weapon usually does more raw damage than most fired weapons. Bigger Trauma on target usually means less chance of the target actually successfully resisting the damage or getting better from that.
Depending on the setting, getting your hands on a bladed weapon can simply be much easier and less problematic and much cheaper than getting something that goes bang a few times.
Hell, get a sharpened piece of metal, make sure you can't cut your own hand when holding it and you have yourself a shiv. Depending on size you may have a sword.
Also, blades are usefull for more than just combat.
Hacking through stuff like undergrowth, skinning animals, cutting the animals up for food rations. also as a defense against other close combat weapons. Just look at the Machete. And the Ninjato.
If you are in a setting where nobody is using close combat weapons, then ask yourself WHY NOT.

[Koumei]

40k explains it clearly

Horseshit.

[Scrivener]

Having close combat in a space setting is reasonable, travel is done in ships where a small hole can result in everyone on board dead. Any ranged weapon worth using can penetrate the hull of a ship (if it can't why not wear armor made up of the same stuff?) so a miss can result in loss of ship. Your remaining option is to use a super accurate, easily controlled weapon, like a sword.

Even if a "space sword" cannot penetrate a hull, personal armor is more likely to have weak points. Granted if "space plate mail" becomes vogue, "space maces" will be more popular and so on. Reasonably you can assume that most people will use rapiers because they are cool and it's not overtly cumbersome both on and off ship, though you have space to justify any weapon or fighting style.

[Stahlseele]

Also:
You will NEVER need to reload your sword.
When your gun goes click click all of a sudden in a melee situation, you are left with an probably pretty unwieldy and kinda fragile club.

[silva]

Its cool.

Thats enough argument.

[souran]

I hate to agree with Shadzar about anything.

However, 40K does have an explanation. I don't know if its good or explains it clearly but:

Space Marine Armor, Terminator Armor, and the Armor of the Eldar is all good enough that it can stop the most common ranged weapon of the 41st millennium (The lasgun/Orc Shoota) with regularity. This means that there are lots of armored guys who can actually get into the melee to utilize the fact that they are a) genetic supermen or b) inhuman monsters to kill people.

In the early versions of 40K there were distinct differences between knives and bayonets and chainswords. This meant that wielding a chainsword was actually more deadly (and made more sense) than carrying a knife.

Newer versions of 40K have simplified their weapon schemes so that only power weapons (which were supposed to be sort of rare) are distinctly better than a lasgun.

Also, sword and planet is a whole genre thats older than space opera. Generally, the explanation is poor. However, remember that swords were issued long after they were remotely useful, even for cavalry. The sword is a phallic symbol, a military symbol, a symbol of might and power, and a symbol that LOTS of cultures have made seem awesomely cool. That's why people run around with a space sword and a pistol.

[Koumei]

Fine. It gives a really stupid explanation that is not supported by its own lore and is simply "a justification for the fact that when miniatures start 3' from each other and can shoot only twice as far as they can move, you end up with everyone piling in and being able to swing weapons faster than they can tap a trigger".

But it is technically an explanation at all.

[Prak]

Also, obligatory image:

[souran]

Fine. It gives a really stupid explanation that is not supported by its own lore and is simply "a justification for the fact that when miniatures start 3' from each other and can shoot only twice as far as they can move, you end up with everyone piling in and being able to swing weapons faster than they can tap a trigger".

But it is technically an explanation at all.

You have it backwards. Its supported by the lore of 40k, but not by the rules. The lore is that space marine armor is damn near invincible and that a space marine in terminator armor is literally worth hundreds or even thousands of lesser troops and doesn't fear their shitty weapons at all.

The wargame has to restrict this to something where the sides have anything resembling balance and so the game has swung back and forth from melee being OP to melee being useless.

[angelfromanotherpin]

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... dvancedAge

[Koumei]

In the lore, a lasgun can cut a man in half with ease, has effectively unlimited ammunition and has the range of a modern military rifle as opposed to "you might be able to throw the gun this far". And is quicker to use than swinging a weapon, obviously. The lore supports "These guys are slowly stomping towards us, we'll fire the guns from all the way over here" as being a viable tactic, unless the author is currently masturbating to Space Marines, in which case you'll recall that one Terminator survived getting stepped on by an Emperor Titan.

I'll accept that Space Marines want to be in close combat with Imperial Guard type punks, who are 100% unable to hurt them with knives and crap (and probably can't hurt them with chainswords and shouldn't have power weapons). Whereas they can crush infantry beneath their boots in a very literal sense. However by the same token, infantry have guns that can hurt them (and in return, their guns actually make infantry explode).

[hyzmarca]

Any ranged weapon worth using can penetrate the hull of a ship (if it can't why not wear armor made up of the same stuff?)

Spaceships, generally, weigh more than you do.

Now, an Iowa class battleship is puretty maned durable. But do I really have to explain why the average WWII infantryman didn't wear 13 inch thick steel armor?

[darkmaster]

The killing power of laser and plasma weapons comes from heat, if a laser was inherently deadly I could kill you with a laser pointer but I can't, so any laser weapon has to be of sufficient intensity to burn stuff in order to kill.

So any armor that can stop laser and plasma weapons has to be able to absorb and dissipate heat without transferring it to the wearer and while it is conceivable that this could be achieved with enough fiddling with metallurgy usually to get one property you have to give up another so armor that can stop laser and plasma bolts could conceivably be rather brittle and vulnerably to melee attack.

[Silent Wayfarer]

40K has a few reasons why melee weapons are in favor.

1) Spess Mehrens are basically spess knights, but more importantly they are Marines, which means they are boarding troops who fight in close quarters and can abuse the fuck out of being gigantic power armored badasses who can cut through hull plating with contemptuous ease. Of course they are also omnicompetent heavy infantry but their raison d'etre is being incredibly hardcore close combatants.

2) Chaos Spess Mehrens follow much the same logic as mehrens except about 20% of them are devoted to a god that wants as much blood and carnage as possible and rewards them with magic rage powers and immortality for doing so. As a result they don't care if they die as long as they drown everyone else in their blood. 20% of them worship a sadomasochistic god of pleasure that makes them only able to find joy in killing people horribly (melee lets them savor the screams, see also Dark Eldar). Most of the rest don't care either way, but they're all mehrens at heart, so pretty much the same reasons apply.

3) Elfdar are incredibly traditionalist and hidebound warriors who actually follow the same fighting styles as heroes out of legend, which usually involves melee weapons since legendary heroes have legendary swords but usually not legendary plasma cannons. Also, they have incredible mobility and combat radius is actually much bigger than humans expect.

4) Imperial Guard are pretty shit at close combat, being puny humans with plastic knives and cardboard armor. Even their dedicated close combat specialist troops are not very good at their job and can only win through sheer numbers. That is, however, the strength of the Guard. Even so, they would be much better served pewing with lasguns than trying to swarm a mehren.

5) Tau suck at melee combat. They have shit for reflexes and even their warrior caste are weaker than the average Imperial Guard conscript. But that's okay, that's why they have the Kroot, who are savage close combatants that can fight effectively in close quarters and screen Tau riflemen.

6) Orks are a parody of British soccer hooligans who are also insanely resilient berserker mushrooms. Average boyz aren't much stronger than humans, but they are tough; they can survive decapitation and all the horrors a demented psychopath with power tools can do to a body. They also have a gigantic swarm advantage and a psychic gestalt that powers up the more of them that are together but only benefits melee charges.

7) Tyranids are the original inspiration for the zerg, boasting vast numbers and melee weapons, since those are cheaper on biomass to produce. They can literally run their opponents dry of ammo before ripping them to pieces in close combat, and Tyranids grow their boys big.

8) Dark Eldar are insane hedonistic sadists who get murderboners off killing and being killed (they can get grown back). They feed off pain and melee combat lets them cause the most suffering, since most of their other weapons are sufficiently powerful enough to annihilate opponents outright without milking pain from them.

9) Necrons would rather use death rays on people, but they have specialist infiltrators and royal/honor guard type troops to protect their leaders. The former are mostly incorporeal with the other kind being fear-emanating burrowers that ambush people with foot-long claws, while the honor guard are intended to take hits for their leader and fend off attackers, hence their melee focus. Necrons kind of suck at melee because of low initiative, so almost people will get the first hit in (and usually the first hit kills people). But they have nigh-guaranteed resurrection and regeneration and they have Space Marine statlines, so incredibly strong and tough in the first place.

10) Sisters of Battle are an odd duck. They're better at ranged combat but all their weapons have shitty range. They aren't good at melee, barring good miracles. They're still puny humans and power armor won't help that much. Their dedicated melee troops are literally suicidal half naked psychos who carry a two handed chainsword into combat to die for the Emperor.

I think that's all of them.

[Mord]

7) Tyranids are the original inspiration for the zerg

[Silent Wayfarer]

Maybe you're being sarcastic, maybe not, I don't give a fuck. As I understand it, the Tyranids were inspired by the xenomorphs. The Zerg came from a time when Blizzard was approached to do a 40K RTS with the Tyranids, but then the deal fell through and Bliz was left with a lot of suspiciously similar art assets. They turned them into the Zerg and now Nid fanboys rage everytime they hear "Wow, they're just like the Zerg from Starcraft!"

[shadzar]

7) Tyranids are the original inspiration for the zerg

I need to get my nids out. I painted on of the old 2nd edition metal running hormagaunts shiny black just like the Alien it was ripped off from. need to paint my metal warrior but is probably not even usable now.

when aliens like nids such as genestealrs and ripper swarms use nothing but bone and teeth to attack, you better have a chainsword for the damn things!

what was the displacer beast in Avatar called? Carnataur? "Don't shoot you will just piss him off!" ~ Grace


yeah totally not a rip-off of Aliens...

from the 1998 catalog, the metal hormaguant

[rasmuswagner]

I've been thinking about an absurd extension of the current attitude towards nuclear weapons: As it is, we don't wage TOTAL WAR. As it is, we hold back our nastiest weapons.

So, at some point, there's an all-out war; drones massacring civilians, nuclear exchanges, warp drive technology used to lay waste to continents... and the treaty of New Genova recognizes both the need for armed conflict between states, and the terror of Total War. And so we get swords. If you think the Uranium Mines of Globtar 4 belong to you, you put your warm bodies where your mouth is.

Of course, the spacefaring powers DO have nukes, warp torpedoes and genocide-in-a-can, and of course spies are going to use forbidden weaponry - but war and peacekeeping is by the sword and the truncheon; in return, the rival powers keep the laser rifles at home and the angry mob riot with sticks and stones instead of printing out handguns.

Of course, rabble that are not citizens of a great power are vermin, and vermin gets blown up by drone. And you need nukes or better to be considered a great power.

[Scrivener]

Any ranged weapon worth using can penetrate the hull of a ship (if it can't why not wear armor made up of the same stuff?)

Spaceships, generally, weigh more than you do.

Now, an Iowa class battleship is puretty maned durable. But do I really have to explain why the average WWII infantryman didn't wear 13 inch thick steel armor?

Sure in a battleship that's the case. How about a small private vessel? You know the type that isn't controlled by the government, the type that pirates rogues and adventures would use.

If we are talking about a world of poor engineering that ignores physics, resources and logistics (40k), sure every Tom, Dick and Harry has foot thick walls on their ship that is the size of Utah. If we are talking about a place where fuel and inerita are things, and the need to cram as much space for life support, energy and stuff as possible is taken into account, you won't have super heavy hulls. Weight becomes a much bigger concern in space.

[kzt]

Also:
You will NEVER need to reload your sword.
When your gun goes click click all of a sudden in a melee situation, you are left with an probably pretty unwieldy and kinda fragile club.

If you are shooting them you are not in melee. They have to close on you to attack you with melee weapons, so you shoot them when they try this. If you run out of ammo you have a minor issues that does require an immediate response. There are several options viable options here: a) Yell "reloading", drop to a knee and let the guy behind you kill them, b) draw you pistol and shoot them, or c) stab them with your bayonet. Deciding to not use a gun at the start means that YOU have to close on them. During which you'll get shot by them., because it's really unlikely that both sides are run by idiots.