The Gaming Den

Posted: **Tue Jul 29, 2014 4:35 pm**

Here is an article about the rise and fall of Gygax at TSR from the interviews and court docs. Interesting read, at least.

Posted: **Tue Jul 29, 2014 6:05 pm**

The lesson? Don't sell shares to the company you create. Keep it entirely in private hands.

Posted: **Tue Jul 29, 2014 7:34 pm**

Apparently occluded's 'lesson' comes with bonus free money that allows you to create the company and its products out of thin air.

Rumplestiltskin, bitches!

The better lesson is to hire someone who actually understands money (and business), actually pay attention to recessions and banks, and pay close fucking attention to your share-holding colleagues when they start talking about getting out. Closing your eyes and humming makes for a poor process.

Posted: **Tue Jul 29, 2014 8:27 pm**

It IS actually possible to start businesses without selling stock, as much as some people like to pretend otherwise.

(I've always wondered why they do that... is there a particular goal in mind, or is it just conventionality at work?)

Posted: **Tue Jul 29, 2014 8:34 pm**

Occluded, did you even read the piece? They didn't have enough money to finance the printing of the book that would be their main product. This was basically a hobby group, and Gygax had been jobless for three years. You can honestly see no reason other than "conventionality" to raise money via investment in such a situation?

Posted: **Tue Jul 29, 2014 8:37 pm**

Red Rob wrote:You can honestly see no reason other than "conventionality" to raise money via investment in such a situation?

Prostitution. If it's good enough for a nameless trollop squirreled away on a random table, it's good enough for Gygax.

Posted: **Tue Jul 29, 2014 8:48 pm**

If you're surprised that you no longer control a product after selling more than 50% of it to investors...

Posted: **Tue Jul 29, 2014 10:23 pm**

Occluded Sun wrote:It IS actually possible to start businesses without selling stock,

Yes, it is. If you have money. They didn't. Shall I explain how 1+1=2 for you?

Posted: **Tue Jul 29, 2014 10:32 pm**

Actionable lesson of the day: Be so wealthy that you can do whatever you want without being accountable to anyone or anything besides your own whims. Thanks, OS, I'll implement your life advice immediately.

Posted: **Tue Jul 29, 2014 10:35 pm**

Occluded Sun wrote:Keep it entirely in private hands.

It was.

Inc. Magazine awarded TSR sixth place in its 1981 list of the one hundred fastest-growing privately held companies.

As far as it was explained...
The stocks were just how they incorporated the company. They weren't publicly traded. The stocks were ways to divvy up worth-by-investment in the company and ensured future recompense if things went well.

Posted: **Tue Jul 29, 2014 11:28 pm**

Voss wrote:
Occluded Sun wrote:It IS actually possible to start businesses without selling stock,
Yes, it is. If you have money. They didn't. Shall I explain how 1+1=2 for you?

Perhaps you can explain away the concept of a bank loan.

Posted: **Wed Jul 30, 2014 12:05 am**

Occluded Sun wrote:
Voss wrote:
Occluded Sun wrote:It IS actually possible to start businesses without selling stock,
Yes, it is. If you have money. They didn't. Shall I explain how 1+1=2 for you?
Perhaps you can explain away the concept of a bank loan.

OK. You're a middle aged fucking cobbler living at the subsistence level, with no high school education and your pitch is a fantasy wargame. The bank says, 'Fuck Off, peasant'

Banks, unsurprisingly, want some guarantee that the loan is going to be repaid. Which means (at the very least) some form of collateral, which he plainly did not have.

Posted: **Wed Jul 30, 2014 12:08 am**

Occluded Sun wrote:
Voss wrote:
Occluded Sun wrote:It IS actually possible to start businesses without selling stock,
Yes, it is. If you have money. They didn't. Shall I explain how 1+1=2 for you?
Perhaps you can explain away the concept of a bank loan.

I see that you keep not letting such minor trifles like "reality" get in the way of your thinking!

But thanks for sharing your priceless insight, OS. I'll promptly notify Kickstarter and Indiegogo that their business model isn't needed anymore because bank loans.

Posted: **Wed Jul 30, 2014 12:54 am**

The actual lesson seems to be

1)Don't buy knitting companies if you're a RPG publisher.

2)Don't predict absurd sales increases and spend money as if they've already happened.

3)Don't make wealthy employees sign absurd investment contracts as a condition of their employment.

4)Don't give a bank multiple seats on your board of directors as a condition of receiving a loan.

5)Don't screw over your friends and don't let banks screw over your friends. Especially if they own massive amounts of stock in your company.

6)If it's possible for a conspiracy to screw you over, try to stay on good terms with everyone. And for that matter, even if you don't think it's possible try to stay on good terms with everyone.

Occluded Sun wrote:
Voss wrote:
Occluded Sun wrote:It IS actually possible to start businesses without selling stock,
Yes, it is. If you have money. They didn't. Shall I explain how 1+1=2 for you?
Perhaps you can explain away the concept of a bank loan.

Did you not read the article? The bank is what really screwed them over. Take away the bank loan (and the need for the bank loan) and things would have gone much differently.

Posted: **Wed Jul 30, 2014 1:04 am**

hyzmarca wrote: Did you not read the article? The bank is what really screwed them over. Take away the bank loan (and the need for the bank loan) and things would have gone much differently.

He's talking about earlier, when they honestly had zero things and were trying to turn a gaming club idea into an actual product. The big screw bank loan came a decade later, after a warehouse full of bad decisions (including massive over-hiring). Your #4 was at that point, unavoidable, as they were essentially in bail-out mode, because they had already completely ignored #2.

Posted: **Wed Jul 30, 2014 1:10 am**

Occluded Sun wrote:Perhaps you can explain away the concept of a bank loan.

What is a "bank loan?" Is it something you wear?

Posted: **Wed Jul 30, 2014 1:14 am**

Mord wrote:
Occluded Sun wrote:Perhaps you can explain away the concept of a bank loan.
What is a "bank loan?" Is it something you wear?

It's a type of hat. Sort of a cross between a a trilby and a fez.

Posted: **Wed Jul 30, 2014 1:14 am**

Wait, so now that Shadzar can't shit the thread up with stupidity, Occluded Sun thinks he has to step up to the task?

Posted: **Wed Jul 30, 2014 1:19 am**

where is Shadzar? he would probably really enjoy this thread.

Posted: **Wed Jul 30, 2014 1:20 am**

infected slut princess wrote:where is Shadzar? he would probably really enjoy this thread.

He was banned.

Posted: **Wed Jul 30, 2014 1:21 am**

infected slut princess wrote:where is Shadzar? he would probably really enjoy this thread.

Dude, where were you? He got his ass banned in the thread where Shitmuffin tried to explain how we're all wrong and he's the best designer in the world, for ever.

Posted: **Wed Jul 30, 2014 2:48 am**

And there was much rejoicing.

Sort of.

At least we have Occluded Sun.

Posted: **Wed Jul 30, 2014 3:41 am**

Mord wrote:
Occluded Sun wrote:Perhaps you can explain away the concept of a bank loan.
What is a "bank loan?" Is it something you wear?

Indeed it is.

Posted: **Wed Jul 30, 2014 4:33 am**

Koumei wrote:Wait, so now that Shadzar can't shit the thread up with stupidity, Occluded Sun thinks he has to step up to the task?

There will always be a shadlennsaroy.

Posted: **Wed Jul 30, 2014 6:04 am**

A few more and we can make own Captain Marvel

The Gaming Den

The Rise and Fall of Gygax at TSR

The Rise and Fall of Gygax at TSR