The Gaming Den

I've heard the term tossed around, but have no idea what it could actually mean, aside from "a rogue who primarily attacks through throwing flasks of acid", with the hint that you apply Sneak Attack damage to the attacks.

Is that right? If so, would someone explain to me:
1. a. How a low-level rogue can afford enough acid flasks to use them all the time and purchase reasonable equipment (assuming they're meant to purchase other equips, please correct me if I'm wrong), or
1. b. At what level it becomes cost-effective for a rogue to use flasks all the time?
2. How rogues get to apply sneak attack damage to thrown flasks?
3. Why flasks, rather than a shortbow or somesuch?

1 a. Generally they can't.

1 b. I believe one of the spells can make acid, Fabricate? Anyway, get a wand of that and UMD it, that's when it's cost effective.

2. You apply it by denying your target of its dex bonus like everything else. Blink in 3E allowed you to do that.

3. Flasks are touch attack. Also, I've seen it argued that you can also apply the sneak attack damage to the splash effect too. I personally do not agree with that but there's nothing in the rules that says it doesn't apply....

I think the main thing is that since flasks are touch attacks, when you use them against someone who has been denied dex to AC, it pretty much always hits.

Miryafa wrote: 3. Why flasks, rather than a shortbow or somesuch?

The point of combining thrown grenade-like weapons (acid flask, alchemical fire, ect.) with a blink effect is to make all of your attacks ranged touch against flat-footed targets. So you'll be looking at an AC of 10 or less for most things unless they're one of the rare monsters with a decent deflection bonus. That's pretty much it. After level five or six you just load up on as many throwing attacks as you can get since you only miss on a natural 1 and go to town on everyone.

Also, because it's energy damage it automatically penetrates damage reduction. You may need to carry a few flasks of alchemist's fire and holy water to deal with resistances or immunities to acid, but the same principles apply to those attacks as well.

1a) Technically you can afford them very early. WBL for character level 2 or whatever is like 1000gp, so you can start with your normal equipment as well as say 50 or so flasks (or more) and be fine. And when you look at how many flasks you are actually going to throw (you only throw when you get SA, you kill people pretty quick when you get SA, over 13 encounters you level up and get another 2000gp which you can spend on more flasks, and 50 flasks probably lasts you 13 encounters).

In fact, even more than that, almost regardless of how your DM does wealth, you can afford it even easier than that. If he does WBL, then spending consumables gives you more wealth to make up for it so you stay at the same WBL. If he does treasure parcels and doesn't give you more for WBL, treasure parcels actually give 133% of WBL, so even if you spent 33% of your money on flasks, you would still be at WBL. And past level 3 you will never spend that much.

You probably also want to expand to other things besides acid, like holy water and stuff, and I think there is like Delver's Blood or something in some book that is basically untyped damage. But you also want to use craft skills to cut all costs to 1/3rd as well. So in the long running paying for it is pretty easy.

The real low level limiter is that you can only reasonably carry a small number of flasks on your person at one time, because of weight limits, and probably dumping Strength. Once you get a handy haversack you can carry loads, and then a reasonable DM will let you use quick draw on the haversack, but even if not, you just have a bandoleer that you can personally replenish from the sack, and hey, there are like extradimensional belt and robe items that you can probably get your flasks in too.

1b) Oops, I guess I answered this, but basically as soon as you own a handy haversack. Because it is cost-effective from level 2, but you need the extradimensional space to be using them as your pretty much only line of attack.

2) Flasks are an attack roll, you apply SA damage like any other attack roll, when they are flat footed. Grease effects and stealth from low levels, Blink rings and stealth at higher levels.

3) Flasks attack touch AC, touch AC is usually much lower than regular AC, so you get some serious crazy awesome reduced AC numbers by ignoring armor, usually just 10 plus or minus size, occasionally some luck or deflection bonuses.

Note that you're throwing the flasks directly at the target, not trying to add SA to AoE. (Although from a balance PoV, that might be fine too, not sure)

RadiantPhoenix wrote:Note that you're throwing the flasks directly at the target, not trying to add SA to AoE. (Although from a balance PoV, that might be fine too, not sure)

It probably wouldn't matter outside a few very niche situations. Because honestly the AoE is so fucking tiny that they literally have to be standing adjacent, and the entire point is that you are attacking AC 10ish with an AB of 7-10.

Thanks!

Miryafa wrote:I've heard the term tossed around, but have no idea what it could actually mean, aside from "a rogue who primarily attacks through throwing flasks of acid", with the hint that you apply Sneak Attack damage to the attacks.

Is that right? If so, would someone explain to me:
1. a. How a low-level rogue can afford enough acid flasks to use them all the time and purchase reasonable equipment (assuming they're meant to purchase other equips, please correct me if I'm wrong), or
1. b. At what level it becomes cost-effective for a rogue to use flasks all the time?

An acid flask costs 10 gp.

A first level treasure averages 300 gp - so with a four way split amongst the party, a rouge is profiting on average if she flings fewer than 7.5 flasks per encounter at level 1. Since most 3e fights are less than 5 rounds and the rogue will presumably be spending some rounds positioning and/or stealthing to set up sneak attack, it's totally economically viable from the start.

Now, doing so does slow down her acquisition of masterwork equipment, since it's only 30 flasks / 15 alchemist's fires to get to Masterwork. But when you start talking actual magic gear, the numbers are so far off that it just doesn't matter. A +1 bonus is 100 flasks / 50 alchemists fire on armor and twice those numbers for weapons. a +2 weapon costs the same as 800 flasks of acid or 400 alchemists fires - and that's honestly more attacks than 90% of D&D characters will make in the course of play.

Potion Belts from the FR Campaign Setting (3.0) should do the trick, somewhat anyway. Basic one carries six potion bottles and you quickdraw as a free action as a perk. Masterwork ones up the storage capacity to 10.

The big issue for low level characters, as Kaelik said, is weight, not cost. Flask Rogue characters tend to first-pick Dex, then Int and Con. Wis, Str, and Cha are all distant third tier choices. Popular race choices such as Halflings and Grey Elves even have Strength Penalties. The Carrying Capacities are pretty "realistic," which means it is quite difficult to do heavy adventuring while carrying a lot of stuff. Acid Flasks weigh one pound each, which means that if you carry around enough for 4 encounters, you're looking at 10-20 pounds of ammo. A strength 10 character's light load maxes out at 33 pounds, which doesn't leave a lot of space for ropes, pitons, and studded leather armor.

Low level characters pretty much need to put their extra throwing ammunition onto a donkey or the party's Orc Barbarian or something. Once you get a Haversack, it's no longer an issue.

-Username17