The Gaming Den

Posted: **Mon Dec 19, 2016 2:58 am**

So GW is doing games on twitchTV now.

First battle:

Magnus lived only 2 turns and did basically nothing relevant.
Whatever was left of the 10ksons got tabled by the 3rd turn.

And the space furries weren't even bringing their fancy thundercav or wulfen, most cheesy thing was the lone stormwolf with an helfrost cannon (that's what instagibbed Magnus).

Other highlights:
-If you spend your warp charges blessing your stuff to get that+1 inv, you won't have anything left for psychic dakka.
-10ks sons basically have no anti-tank, so even a couple armor 12 dreads and some rhinos ruin their day.

What is more worrying is that GW's staff didn't even seem to know the rules they write that well themselves, since at one point it seems like grey hunters just charge out of a rhino. Not that they didn't need that to win since, again, 10ksons got tabled by the 3rd turn.

On the bright side, the fact that they're doing this for everybody to see may make them finally realize their errors.

Posted: **Mon Dec 19, 2016 5:49 am**

I'm sure the point was to show off their pretty new minis, but to be honest, that's what you get when you make a bad list. Thousand Sons armies have just as many anti-armour weapons as the rest of the Chaos Space Marines and if you 100% take Rubricae and Scarabs then you're retarded and it's your own fault when you can't crack a dreadnought open.

Looking at the Chaos stuff there, assuming no upgrades of any kind that's 1730 points, so I'm going to hazard a guess that it was 1750 (if they seriously spent 270 points on full upgrades for Rubricae there with like 10 Warpflamers, 2 Warpflame Pistols and so on, they're just dumb and the following list can be even better). So here's what you could do to still be a Thousand Sons army:

Thousand Sons Combined Arms Detachment
HQ: Exalted Sorcerer (Mastery 3), Grimoire [215]
HQ: DP of Tzeentch, Wings, Mastery 2, Coruscator [270]
Troops: 10 Tzaangors w/ Pistols [80]
Troops: 10 Tzaangors w/ Pistols [80]
Troops: 10 Tzaangors w/ Pistols [80]
Troops: 10 Rubricae, 1 Soulreaper [290]
-Chaos Rhino [35]
Elite: 5 Scarab Occult Terminators, 1 Heavy Warpflamer [265]
Fast: 3 Chaos Bikes of Tzeentch, 2 Meltas, Melta Bombs on champ [94]
Fast: Heldrake [170]
Fast: Heldrake [170]
1749 points, 46 Infantry, 1 Flying Monster, 2 Flyers, 3 Bikes, 1 normal Vehicle, 8 Warp Charge

You can optionally swap the Rhino and/or Coruscator out for some upgrades here and there, but seeing as Rubricae are Slow and Purposeful and Bolters are relatively short-range weapons (and your Terminators are moving around like Jump Infantry with the Exalted Sorcerer attached), it's probably good to stay relatively mobile there. Other options include cheaper HQ, 2x5 Rubricae in Rhinos (can't take Soulreapers but on the other hand, 2 fire points = 4 models firing out, so practically the entire unit), looking at Forgeworld options (Sicaran Venator, Fire Raptor, the Talon/Claw Flyers), dropping one Heldrake for a couple of Predators if you'd prefer the ground-based autocannons.

Remember that Heldrakes don't have to take Flamestorm Cannons, they can actually choose to have 36" S 8 AP 4 Heavy 4 Pinning guns that do just fine against most Rear Armour, which they can shoot because they're fucking Flyers.

The main downside is that you can't draw your army 100% from one book, you actually have to use the Chaos Book plus the Traitor Legions or Wrath of Magnus book. Also you don't get to place a legion of unfeeling, fleshless Egyptian-themed robots, but if you wanted to do that, you'd field Necrons, why didn't you just do that? And if you want only Rubricae, play Kill Teams, there you go son.

Posted: **Mon Dec 19, 2016 6:28 am**

Koumei wrote:I'm sure the point was to show off their pretty new minis, but to be honest, that's what you get when you make a bad list. Thousand Sons armies have just as many anti-armour weapons as the rest of the Chaos Space Marines and if you 100% take Rubricae and Scarabs then you're retarded and it's your own fault when you can't crack a dreadnought open.

"Hey guys, buy our new minis and be tabled by turn 3!"

That's... A not very good show off.

Yes, you could take the anti-tank options that all of chaos have in the core book. But then what's the point of playing 10k sons? "Geez, I really wish I could pay a bazillion points for some AP 3 that can't hurt tanks/robots/fliers in an edition where cover and cheap vehicles are everywhere".

Plague Marines have their meltas and Emprah's Kids get their blaster master and even the Zerker champion gets to dish out a lot of S9 power fist attacks. And that was with only the basic chaos book.

Koumei wrote: Also you don't get to place a legion of unfeeling, fleshless Egyptian-themed robots, but if you wanted to do that, you'd field Necrons, why didn't you just do that? And if you want only Rubricae, play Kill Teams, there you go son.

Because I want the unfeeling, fleshless Egyptian-themed robots to be personally guided by their sorcerours masters shooting lasers that can also go "ZA WARUDO! WWWWRRRRYYYYYY!!!!" when loyalist scum gets too close?

Or I could play Deathguard. Relentless Fearless Feel No Pain everything. What's up necrons, you suffering from pinning and running away after suffering 25% casualities from shooting or losing combat or being afraid of scary stuff?

Or I could play Emprah's kids. Also Fearless+more Feel No Pain than rubrics/scarabs everything, their own super guns, yet still cheaper.

Rumor is that Wrath of Magnus was written by a SW fanboy, which would explain a lot. Because GW showed they can write cool rules to allow basically every other chaos legion to be more diverse and efficient than 10k sons, despite the latter getting a book of their own while the remaining legions had to share the same space.

Posted: **Mon Dec 19, 2016 6:51 am**

maglag wrote:"Hey guys, buy our new minis and be tabled by turn 3!"

That's... A not very good show off.

I said they wanted to show off the minis, not the rules for them - besides, last time they did a big display thing for Wolves vs Sons was when Wolves had a new dex (before the Frostbeam weapons, when they had Wolf Wolfborn of the Wolves who rides a Wolf) and the Sons tabled them. Maybe they just suck at introducing new things.

Yes, you could take the anti-tank options that all of chaos have in the core book. But then what's the point of playing 10k sons?

Firstly you're multiplying them by 10, there's only a thousand. Secondly, you must think Eldar are shit, I mean if you only take a bare-bones Autarch and nothing but Storm Guardians with no Fusion guns, they really suck! All they're good at is putting out a bunch of pretend-rending shots against infantry and then charging for a flurry of weak attacks, that's useless! I mean sure there are all these other things right there in the fucking codex to go alongside those choices, using them for a specific role, but you can't just 100% make your army that, so the whole book is worthless.

And don't get me started on Marines who can't do much when they only take a bunch of Scout Squads and a Chaplain for their entire army. Totally useless I tell you. Okay you could put something else in like a Flyer or Predator Squadron or some Grav-Centurions, but then what's the point at all in even having those other things? You can't win by just going all-in on two choices, USELESS I SAY.

You get some specialist things as part of a larger army, with a specific role (be annoying to kill as T4 Sv 3+/5++ or 4++ or whatever (which I remind you more than half the actual armies envy, just because it's not much of an improvement on survivability compared to Space Marines) whilst generating Warp Charge and shooting people for AP 3, meaning even Space Marines have to take the slow trek through Cover or waste their own time Going to Ground or just eat casualties). They do that thing. Meanwhile you have some other things that do their thing, and you paint them all the same colours.

Because I want the unfeeling, fleshless Egyptian-themed robots to be personally guided by their sorcerours masters shooting lasers that can also go "ZA WARUDO! WWWWRRRRYYYYYY!!!!" when loyalist scum gets too close?

Pretty sure Crypreks and Overlords have weird crap that basically do that, just without specifically mentioning sorcery or referencing the Psychic Phase. As for the Wryyyyy thing, Thousand Sons aren't meant to be going crazy and unleashing hell in close combat (meanwhile Flayed Ones exist).

Because GW showed they can write cool rules to allow basically every other chaos legion to be more diverse and efficient than 10k sons, despite the latter getting a book of their own while the remaining legions had to share the same space.

I am still convinces it's just infinite monkeys at typewriters. They makes some pretty models, then they show the models to a room of people and say "Make rules for these. Here are the wargear options included on the sprue." and then the first person to type up something that "fits" those minis (and does not reference stuff not included on the sprues) wins the contest and gets published and is allowed to wear the hat for the day. The special GW hat. It's blue.

Posted: **Mon Dec 19, 2016 7:54 am**

Can that GW TV match be reviewed? Checked their twitch channel and didn't see where I could watch it. I think the only GW writer that ever consciously wrote strong new units was Matt Ward, everything else is randum.

A Dark Eldar list won the "No Retreat III" tournament against strong tournymeta armies:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Zkcl1hq4bg

It's basically
-HQ: minimalist archon largely there to fill the HQ tax and bring another blaster
-Troop: min warriors with blaster and haywire sybarites in veno
Fast Att: As many reavers with caltrops (1d6 s6 rending hammer of wrath hits) and blasters as possible.

The guy alpha strikes and tables most opposition in two turns with reaver hammer of wrath attacks. The idea is every unit is able to hurt vehicles or monsters or hordes so everything can fight anything. Interesting example of hyper super duper specialization in an overall weak codex.

Posted: **Mon Dec 19, 2016 8:58 am**

OgreBattle wrote:Can that GW TV match be reviewed? Checked their twitch channel and didn't see where I could watch it.

Sadly it appears to have been lost to the warp.

Oh, and GW are running it as preview for now, after a month the channel will become paid-followers-only it seems.

OgreBattle wrote: I think the only GW writer that ever consciously wrote strong new units was Matt Ward, everything else is randum.

I dare you to look at the Eldar codex and repeating that.

It's not only disgutingly cheap scatbikes, it's a book where you literally could blindly pick options at random and you'll end with a strong viable army. The only way you can have a bad eldar army is if you only spam the few bad units (storm guardians) on purpose.

OgreBattle wrote: A Dark Eldar list won the "No Retreat III" tournament against strong tournymeta armies:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Zkcl1hq4bg

It's basically
-HQ: minimalist archon largely there to fill the HQ tax and bring another blaster
-Troop: min warriors with blaster and haywire sybarites in veno
Fast Att: As many reavers with caltrops (1d6 s6 rending hammer of wrath hits) and blasters as possible.

The guy alpha strikes and tables most opposition in two turns with reaver hammer of wrath attacks. The idea is every unit is able to hurt vehicles or monsters or hordes so everything can fight anything. Interesting example of hyper super duper specialization in an overall weak codex.

Oh, that's quite interesting, thanks!

EDIT: Although it seems like they were using some homebrew like flamers only being able to hit a single level of a building.

Posted: **Tue Dec 20, 2016 9:13 am**

Posted: **Tue Dec 20, 2016 10:26 am**

Yeah, I have to go buy a hat just so I can eat it. I assumed it would actually never happen.

Also the new Inquisitor (previewed in the same leak) looks really good, and the Tech-Priest... has too much going on, I think. But maybe that suits the AdMech?

Posted: **Tue Dec 20, 2016 9:39 pm**

Koumei wrote:Yeah, I have to go buy a hat just so I can eat it. I assumed it would actually never happen.

Also the new Inquisitor (previewed in the same leak) looks really good, and the Tech-Priest... has too much going on, I think. But maybe that suits the AdMech?

I'd wait on that hat. People are making a huge deal over these pictures, but they're all related to this 'Fall of Cadia' book and the small print so far is that the book has some rules and especially special rules for these three specific special characters (Celestine, the Ad Mech, and the Inquisitor). But these 'sisters' are specifically the 'Geminii' that come with the new Celestine.

Maybe there is more, but honestly, I haven't seen anything to indicate a general re-release of Sisters. Just these two bodyguards for the Special-ist of Special Characters.

The big release for the month (Jan) is actually a bunch of tzeentch tzaangors and cultists for Age of Smegma.

The AdMech dude is apparently carnifex sized, and is 10,000 years old, and has been doing something something to help defend cadia (or something). Which kind of shits on things. Even heavily cyberized Admech don't live that long. And his name is Belisarius Cawl. Because of course it is.

On the other hand, the inquisitor model is really good though (though heel spikes are a bit much)

The potentially more interesting thing is called 'Gangs of Commorragh' which if everyone is really lucky will be a boxed game necromunda style in which packs of dark eldar murder the fuck out of each other (and I sincerely hope have new plastics that replace some of the finecast shit hanging out in the range, specifically beasties and the court.)

Though potentially its just reavers and hellions and a weird racing game, as the tagline is 'Breakneck Combat in the Dark City'

Posted: **Wed Dec 21, 2016 12:21 am**

Yeah when I went to bed it occurred to me "If there were new Seraphim, and not two models that specifically hang around Celestine and both have the BP + Power Sword thing that regular Seraphim can't have, then surely we'd see those". I imagine this is a single kit for them, with rules in Fall of Cadia, to ensure people download scans of buy Fall of Cadia.

Posted: **Thu Dec 22, 2016 5:29 am**

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2016/12/ ... beans.html

Is that a Dark Eldar in red armor hanging out with the Black Templars

Posted: **Thu Dec 22, 2016 5:48 am**

Yes, it appears to be a DE Incubus. And nobody else in the picture is paying any attention to him, so either he belongs there or is amazing at just hiding in plain sight or something.

Posted: **Thu Dec 22, 2016 9:15 am**

The Mechanicus codex timeline has a passage about Tech priests making a bargain in Commoraogghagh:

"986999.M41
Desperate Measures
The Tech-Priest custodians at work in the Emperor’s Palace uncover irrevocable failures in the mechanisms of the Golden Throne. A dozen contingency expeditions are immediately launched, including a Xanthite war procession sent through the Exhubris Portal. The Xanthites fight through Harlequins Troups and Daemon hordes alike before reaching their intended destination. In the grave-cold oubliettes beneath Commorragh, a dark bargain is struck"

This rumor site also mentions leaked images that haven't been fully unveiled yet:
https://spikeybits.com/2016/12/rumors-s ... ealed.html

Like what looks to be an Eldar robe with Dark-Eldar esque thorn pattern but Eldar-esque soulstones:
https://spikeybits.com/wp-content/uploa ... -image.jpg

Rampant speculation
* Cawl wants the Dark Eldar pain-into-ressurection tech (for himself, for da emprah?)
*Dark Eldar webway is being used by Cawl+Greyfax+Black Templars to CREED abaddon in the rear
* Cawl plans on using DE pain-tech involving the entire planet of cadia (holy defenders and chaos invaders both) as sacrifice. Because admech are shady guys it'll be to turn himself into a god, revive the dragon, something like that. Cadia is pulled into the webway and Dark Eldar go to town on the planet.
* SUDDENLY NECRONS
* Sisters of Battle die in a noble blood sacrifice because Matt Ward rejoined 40k staff

Posted: **Fri Dec 23, 2016 10:09 am**

So the Imperial Agents Inquisitorial warband is a formation made up of various units that are then formed into one squad (so when it says "0-1 Crusaders" you can take 1 squad of crusaders which is a bunch of guys)

Depending on ordos you can take grey knight terminators, sisters, or a deathwatch squad as part of that unit.

I've heard that the Jokaero upgrade result of '6' was changed to "pick any two of your choice". So with enough orangutans the Deathwatch have their choice of 2+ sv, 5++, +12", or rending.

*...or maybe they're a separate unit as only the units marked with a little '1' blob together. God damnit I hope those orangutans buff everyone in the formation.

Posted: **Fri Dec 23, 2016 11:44 am**

Yeah, a strict reading says that the Inquisitor can choose to join or not (being an Independent Character), but that the Sisters/Deathwatch/Grey Knights are just... taken as an extra optional unit in the datasheet, not actually joining that superunit. They don't benefit from any of the special rules there, it's just on the off chance that you want to include a single unit of whatever in your Inquisition army as opposed to an Allied Detachment or something.

I can't even be sure that's not their intent - it seems entire reasonable for them to deny nice things, and I would love to be able to throw some Deathwatch in and grant them a 2+ Armour Save and Rending Shotguns (which can fire in Template form and in Shred form)/Flamers/Power Mauls/Lightning Claws/whatever. Or Sisters with a 2+/6++ and Rending Bolters and Flamers. So common sense dictates "fuck you" and that the good stuff there is just not happening.

And the Inquisitor wouldn't gain any benefits just because they can choose to attach to the unit - they're not a part of it, just an addition. So that remains the same as the old Jokaero.

Incidentally, have said the Adepta Sororitas are like the Grey Knights and Deathwatch: you can still use their "current" codex - so while you can use the Agents book (for... a barely-useful Detachment and... did they update some Acts of Faith maybe? Oh I suppose taking squads of Cultists as Elites is a thing), you can also choose to stick with their e-book dex and thus have access to Saint Celestine and the Apocalypse Formations. Forgeworld stuff that references the faction of "Adepta Sororitas" (ie one Formation and one Dedicated Transport) still works normally in games that allow FW additions.

Posted: **Fri Dec 23, 2016 2:30 pm**

Jokaero?
Aren't they those librarians that tinker with ringsized lascannons and the such?
An army of that sounds fun. Like a barrel of monkeys.

Posted: **Fri Dec 23, 2016 2:39 pm**

Stahlseele wrote:Jokaero?
Aren't they those librarians that tinker with ringsized lascannons and the such?
An army of that sounds fun. Like a barrel of monkeys.

Monkeys can't pick you up by your ankles and bang your head on the ground.

Or, in other words, "Eek!"

Posted: **Tue Jan 03, 2017 2:28 am**

Gangs of Commoragh is an upcoming Dark Eldar board game that seems to feature reavers and hellions.

The GW facebook page mentions how it has campaign rules 'not dissimilar to Necromunda':
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php? ... 2476085719

Also this is claimed to be a leaked image from Jan 2017 White Dwarf:

SUDDENLY

INFINITY

Posted: **Tue Jan 03, 2017 4:15 am**

Yeah, apparently they played it pretty badly (and made lists pretty badly), basically doing a glorified "look at our fancy new things you need to buy". Also, is that a lone Necron joining the Imperium there? I know they're superfriends with the Blood Angels when facing Nids, but seriously, did he just get lost and find himself in the recruitment office or something?

Posted: **Tue Jan 03, 2017 4:25 am**

Trazyn is on Cadia to level up his Pokemon:

I hope this campaign ends with Trazyn putting Abaddon in a pokeball.

Posted: **Tue Jan 03, 2017 4:39 am**

OgreBattle wrote:I hope this campaign ends with Trazyn putting Abaddon in a pokeball.

That would be fantastic. Too many times has the Armless One failed, just accept that he's a joke and make him Trazyn's poke-pet.

What Type is a Guardsman? Normal? Ground (into dust by everything)? Steel (because they sit in METAL BOXES)?

Posted: **Tue Jan 03, 2017 4:48 am**

rock/ice for maximum frailty, but strong offense.

Posted: **Tue Jan 03, 2017 7:42 am**

Space Marines would mostly be Fighting/Steel (with LotD being Ghost/Steel, Librarians being Psychic/Steel, and Assault Marines being Flying/Steel or Flying/Fighting)

Necrons would largely be Dark/Steel or Dark/Electric or Electric/Steel. But a bunch of them would be Steel/Bug, of course, and then you have things like the Wraiths (Ghost/Electric) and honestly the Forgeworld burrowing asshole is like Electric and Steel and Ghost and Ground.

Mechanicum would do some kind of Normal-Steel-Electric combination, with varying things swapping in weirder Types.

Orks are some kind of Grass-Psychic-Fighting combination, with different Orkspects getting different types (Stormboyz = Flying/Fighting, Burnaboyz = Grass/Fire etc)

Daemons are probably all over the place, with Khorne being Dark/Fighting, Nurgle being Dark/Poison or Ghost/Poison, Slaanesh being something in the Dark-Psychic-Ghost triad and Tzeentch having some combination of Dark-Psychic-Ghost-Fire

Sisters are mostly Dark/Fire or Steel/Fire, depending on whether you value "fuck psykers" or "clad in armour" as a bigger part of their identity. Saint Celestine is Flying/Fairy, because flying and because she's the shiny heroine of shining niceness and also runs up and kicks Dark types in the scrote.

Eldar probably vary based on Aspect, with everything being a unique fucking snowflake. So you have Normal (Guardians), Fighting (Avengers), Ghost (Wraith___), Psychic (Seers), Fire (Dragons), Flying (Hawks) and so on. Maybe even shit like Bug for Scorpions (because you fuck them up with flamers or air strikes and you deploy them to fuck up special characters like psykers).

Dark Eldar are Dark/EldarPoison. Many are Dark/Flying.

I don't care enough about Tau to go over them.

Tyranids... I actually went into too much detail ages ago, when I was pondering doing a romhack.

Ripper: Bug (Swarm/Schooling), evolves into Sky-Slasher
Sky-Slasher: Bug/Flying (Swarm/Schooling)
Termagant: Bug/Ground (Simple), evolves into Gargoyle
Gargoyle: Bug/Flying (Keen Eye, H: Speed Boost)
Hormagant: Bug/Fighting (Simple), evolves into Ravener
Ravener: Bug/Ground (Infiltrate, H: Super Luck)
Spore: Poison (Levitate), evolves into Bigger Spore
Bigger Spore: Flying/Poison (Aftermath), evolves into Mycetispore
Mycetispore: Flying/Poison (Aftermath, H: Shield Dust)
Mawloc: Ground/Bug (Regenerator), evolves into Trygon
Trygon: Ground/Bug (Regenerator), evolves into Trygon Prime
Trygon Prime: Ground/Psychic (Regenerator/Telepathy)
Zoanthrope: Psychic/Bug (Levitate), evolves into Neurothrope
Neurothrope: Psychic/Bug (Levitate), evolves into Maleceptor
Maleceptor: Psychic/Bug (Sturdy/Serene Grace)
Gene Stealer: Dark/Bug (Infiltrate), evolves into Broodlord
Broodlord: Dark/Psychic (Intimidate/Dazzling), evolves into Lictor
Lictor: Dark/Bug (Camouflage/Illusion)
Venomthrope: Poison (Effect Spore/Gooey), evolves into Malanthrope
Malanthrope: Poison/Psychic (Adaptability), evolves into Toxicrene
Toxicrene: Poison (Sturdy/Filter)
Tyrant Guard: Bug/Rock (Multiscale/Marvel Scale, H: Magic Bounce), evolves into Hive Guard
Hive Guard: Bug/Steel (Skill Link/Guts, H: No Guard)
Pyrovore: Fire/Bug (Aftermath/Flame Body), evolves into Scythed Hierodule
Scythed Hierodule: Poison/Bug (Filter), evolves into Barbed Hierodule
Barbed Hierodule: Bug/Poison (Rough Skin/Bulletproof)
Biovore: Fighting/Bug (Skill Link/Mega Launcher), evolves into Tyrannofex
Tyrannofex: Bug/Poison (Sniper/Mega Launcher), evolves into Exocrine
Exocrine: Electric/Bug (Sniper/Mega Launcher, H: Galvanise)
Haruspex: Bug/Dark (Strong Jaw/Long Reach), evolves into Dimachaeron
Dimachaeron: Bug/Ground (Speed Boost)
Tyrant: Psychic/Dark (Telepathy), evolves into Flyrant
Flyrant: Psychic/Flying (Technician)
Screamer-Killer: Bug/Fighting (Filter/Tough Claws), evolves into Wreckerfex or Dakkafex
Wreckerfex: Bug/Fighting (Adaptability/Tough Claws)
Dakkafex: Bug/Fighting (Technician/Sniper)
Hive Crone: Flying/Poison (Tough Claws), evolves into Harpy
Harpy: Flying/Bug (Technician), evolves into Harridan
Harridan: Dragon/Bug (Levitate)
Warrior: Bug/Fighting (Telepathy), evolves into Prime or Shrike
Prime: Bug/Psychic (Prankster)
Shrike: Flying/Psychic (Speed Boost)
*Legendary: Old One Eye: Bug/Steel (Filter)
*Legendary: Swarmlord: Psychic/Fighting (Super Luck)
*Legendary: Lurker in the Swarm: Bug/Flying (Prankster)
*Legendary: Parasite of Mortrex: Psychic/Bug (Regenerator)
*Legendary: Death Leaper: Dark/Bug (Intimidate)
*Legendary: The Red Terror: Dark/Ground (Strong Jaw)

I put too much thought into Pokemon-related things

Posted: **Wed Jan 04, 2017 6:13 am**

Koumei wrote:
OgreBattle wrote:I hope this campaign ends with Trazyn putting Abaddon in a pokeball.
That would be fantastic. Too many times has the Armless One failed, just accept that he's a joke and make him Trazyn's poke-pet.

You know, Abaddon gets a lot of flak from the fandom, but he did loot a couple blackstone fortresses in his previous Black Crusade, which are supposed to be super-effective against necrons, probably one of the reasons Trazyn is showing up.

Abby's black crusades also fully wiped out multiple loyalist chapters. Not just "killed a lot of them", actually exterminated to the last scout. How many other chaos named characters can boast anything close to that?

Sure there was that time when Abby accidentally warped the Black Legion into the path of an Ork WAAAGGHHH!!!, but most of the time Abaddon succeeds by killing and looting a lot of loyalist stuff, several of which the Imperium can't replace like sacred relics and black stone fortresses, then knowhing when to pull back before he can be overwhelmed by sheer numbers.

Horus tried the direct frontal assault approach to defeat the Imperium. It ended up as the biggest epic fail on all of 40K. Abby's's going "fuck honor and glory, I'm gonna claim victory by whatever dirty means necessary", even if it takes 10 000+ years of building up his forces while bleeding down his opponents.

Plus, since the Heresy when Abaddon meets loyalists in close combat, it's the loyalist who faints dies 100% of the time. Contrast to Angron, Magnus and Mortarion getting their asses kicked in personal combat now and then after becoming daemon primarchs.

Posted: **Wed Jan 04, 2017 6:38 am**

Also I don't need to say what happened to Abaddon in the battle report they did there. Like, we all know that if that was the thing that determined the story (instead of campaigns where people mail in results and the organisers literally gerrymander "where" the victories happen to make Chaos win because they personally want a Chaos win. Chaos: the Republican party of 40k) then the results would be "And then Abaddon died horribly, the Imperium not even needing a Primarch to kill him".

Though I don't know who killed him - it might have been Celestine (Primarch-tier at this point) or a Super-Heavy or something. Or it might have been a hail of lasgun fire going "lol weight of numbers, we love fucking our own fluff text up with our rules that push everyone way too close together in ability".

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