Shrieking Banshee wrote:Im looking at stars without number, and its a solid sci fi thing, with some fun organization mechanics for those that like that stuff, but why does it follow "Retro" to the limit? Why does it have some stupid Thatc0 combo that requires you to have lower armor values to have better armor.
And then for some reason past level 10 all the progression goes all screwy. Because it goes all screwy in AD&D I suppose.
But its a general trend I see of "Retro" games intentionally forgetting 30+ years of game development. Why you gotta do that?
Kaelik wrote:Short answer, because they are stupid, long answer, I don't know why in particular they are stupid, maybe you should go ask therpgsite.
The grognards are not "stupid", but they don't particularly understand their own motivations for gaming.....nor do they really understand game design.
Grogs rarely view newer roleplaying games as "better". They want to play games that gave them a joygasm when they were 12-years-old, and they run these games for some very specific reasons:
(1.) Nostalgia: Never tell a Gygaxian grognard that he likes old school games because of "nostalgia". That's his
trigger word. Even though his love for these games is at least partially rooted in nostalgia, Gygaxian grognards
(always middle-aged white men; women gamers never fellate Gygax) will go apeshit if you tell them this, and will vehemently deny it. Women might occasionally feel nostalgia for 2e, but NEVER for Gygaxian D&D
(such as OD&D or 1st edition AD&D). Arguing with the grogs over this point is not worth the headache.
(2.) Perpetuation of Player Confusion: Gygaxian grognards use descending Armor Class to DELIBERATELY confuse players. They want you to NOT know if you hit your opponent, and want you to always be confused about this.
Grognard DMs do not like it when players actually understand the rules to the game, so they often prefer to play D&D with NON-GAMERS. This type of nonsense gives grognards a
"Power Boner". Ironically, most grogs you see on therpgsite or dragonsfoot don't understand old school D&D themselves nearly as well as they like to think they do. In fact, I would argue that even Gygax didn't fully understand what he wrote....and he certainly didn't understand his audience.
(3.) Gygaxian Cocksucking: Never underestimate a grognard's capacity for Gygaxian cocksucking. Gygax's legacy and his words are elevated by the grogs to the level of Holy Writ.....with his personhood practically ascended by these selfsame grogs to sainthood, or even near-deification. If you dare question the wisdom of ANY design choices of Gygax for D&D, the Gygaxian grognards completely lose their shit....and you can guarantee the perpetuation of a 50 page clusterfuck of an online argument. Fortunately, the grogs are getting older and have less testosterone....so their capacity for argument is diminished.
(4.) Hatred of Player Empowerment: Gygaxian grognards
(usually DMs) absolutely hate hate
HATE player empowerment, and the self agency that comes with it. The E6 game play of 5e
(and the highly limited player control of one's environment in 5e) is not an accident
(5e partly catered to the grogs), because grognard DMs really fucking hate it when players use carefully written game mechanics to overpower or sidestep encounters that DMs have carefully prepared for. If you have ever heard a grog say,
"the DM is God", then you know what I'm talking about. Grogs HATE it when the rules are well-written enough
(and carefully written enough) to insulate rule lawyers from DM wrath. Grognards
HATE rules lawyers.....with the fire of a thousand burning suns, because they hate when players fully understand the rules....and exploit those rules to foil the DM's massive
control over the game. They hate this because they fear being challenged on their mistakes, which absolutely interferes with the "Power Boner" that grognard DMs value so highly. If the rules are vaguely written, and open to interpretation.......then you will ultimately have to engage in DM cocksucking,
and Gygaxian grognards totally love that shit.
(5.) Allergy to Clearly Written Rules: Grognards want rules to be VAGUELY WRITTEN and open-ended, so that they can insert their own house rules whenever they feel like it. If you've ever heard of the bullshit phrase,
"Rulings, not rules".....then you will understand this. If your gaming philosophy is entirely based upon
"the DM is God" paradigm, then you will probably be more focused on house rules.....and will never gain a real understanding of the intricacies of game design and game mechanics. Thorough playtesting and smooth game design is hard to accomplish and implement; it's extremely difficult to "idiot proof" a system. It's not really a surprise that Gygaxian grognards disdain the decades of game design that have appeared since then.
(6.) Hatred of Robust Skill Systems in Fantasy Games That Use Levels: For years, grognards on dragonsfoot and ENWorld
(and dragonsfoot's sister sites) threw paint at the wall when making rhetorical arguments about how much they thought 3e sucked. One day, someone prattled on about how much they hated the complexity
(unnecessary complexity, in my opinion) of the skill system in 3e. Grogs then collectively convinced themselves that ALL skill systems in D&D were a horrible evil that must be destroyed. They did this while failing to recognize that game mechanics for skill systems do NOT necessarily have to work in the precise way that they do for 3e. But it didn't matter. 3e was distinctly NON-Gygaxian.....so it had to be destroyed.
(7.) Desire for Smaller Stat Blocks and Faster Combats: Now this is something that actually makes logical sense. Stat blocks for D&D 3.x are too fucking large, and it's a painstakingly slow process to properly reverse engineer a high-level character in D&D 3.5. This is understandable. And old school D&D does have smaller stat blocks, which makes life easier. The problem is that the good innovations of D&D 3.x
(and other newer games) are largely disdained
(with the sometimes limited exception of ascending Armor Class). But when you're dealing with Gygaxian Cocksucking and Epic Nostalgia, that is certainly to be expected.
(8.) Desire to Use New Products With Old Material: Here's another point that actually makes sense. Grogs want to minimize the number of conversion rules they use for their old games. If someone is still playing Gygaxian D&D, then they'd rather purchase a product that is mostly compatible with it. This is certainly understandable, and I can't begrudge them that.
(9.) Grognards Don't Like Learning New Rules For D&D: There's no need to elaborate on that one. People are resistant to change
(myself included), but this is far more true for grognards.
(10.) Because: I'm only adding a Number 10, because I figure you'll want a "Top Ten List". Or.....see #1 through #9.
I will admit that old school games make me feel nostalgic
(sometimes in a good way). And don't get me wrong; I do like old school games very much....but I'm also realistic about the flaws that they have. Gygaxian grognards are not capable of acknowledging the existence of FLAWS in Gygaxian D&D. That's why I left sites like Dragonsfoot; because a "heretic" like me does NOT believe that Gygax is perfect....but rather believes that he made MISTAKES in basic game design. Granted, Gygax was a pioneer, and I give him props for that. He's the "Godfather of Gaming", and his games can sometimes be lots of fun. But Gygaxian D&D is not the only type of D&D, and isn't even necessarily the "best" type of D&D. And if you dare criticize the man or his writings, look out. The grognards will be on your ass like white on rice.
But whatever. It is what it is. D&D has existed in a certain form for DECADES, before being challenged by other roleplaying games
(and other forms of D&D).....and before being challenged by other forms of mass media and entertainment. But I would say that
"intentionally forgetting 30+ years of game development" is the entire point of the "retro-gaming" movement, so the publication of all these OSR games isn't really much of a surprise.
Never underestimate the power of nostalgia and Gygaxian fetishism.