The Gaming Den

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So, that happened. The rumors where true.

Thoughts?

GW wanted more than FFG wanted to pay, OR

FFG has Star Wars and doesn't want to expand resources so they can support ongoing SW development in addition to GW game development.

If the latter, I gotta commend FFG for letting the license go instead of sitting on it for years.

Hm, I wonder if we'll see any of those games reissued with FFG's in-house IPs (Terrinoth for fantasy, Twilight Imperium and/or Android for 40K) on them.

Design work is done, I'd throw some $$$ at a layout guy and some artwork just to get some additional revenue out of the work

Ferret wrote:Design work is done, I'd throw some $$$ at a layout guy and some artwork just to get some additional revenue out of the work

I guess that depends on how profitable they think any of those games might be without the Warhammer logo on them. They might very well think the resources would be better spent developing other things.

Also, apparently GW was selling licenses for a bunch of things (including then FFG-held properties) in Vegas a few months ago.

If nothing else, this opens the way for a possible new 40k RPG that doesn't have terrible mechanics. I'm not saying it's likely, mind you; just noting the possibility.

Could someone make an OSSR of the previous 40K RPGs? I've never played them personally, but I've met some groups that played them and seem to love the experience.

I've read that X Wing minis make more than 40k mini sales, so perhaps FFG feels it's not worth paying GW for an IP that they've already exceeded in profit with Star Wars.

I've also heard a fair amount of praise for Edge of the Empire for delivering the space pirates crewing a ship experience that they thought Rogue Trader would've delivered.

For all the disgust I have towards EotE* - yes. It is a better game for being space pirates than it Rogue Trader ever was.

*EotE does none of the things I want from a Star Wars game. I want space wizards having kung fu fights while swinging on star chandeliers. EotE offers you a glorious opportunity to play Greedo.

OgreBattle wrote:I've read that X Wing minis make more than 40k mini sales, so perhaps FFG feels it's not worth paying GW for an IP that they've already exceeded in profit with Star Wars.

I've seen it in person. The draw at my LGS is HUUUUUUGE

Longes wrote:EotE offers you a glorious opportunity to play Greedo.

...and then dying by slipping in the bath tub.

looking at online RPGs and MMOs people really want to play Greedo.

maglag wrote:Could someone make an OSSR of the previous 40K RPGs? I've never played them personally, but I've met some groups that played them and seem to love the experience.

I've been considering doing that for the two games I'm most familiar with - Dark Heresy (1E) and Rogue Trader. Still thinking on it. Actually got started on a Dark Heresy one, but it's a tremendous clusterfuck of page-hunting to make presentable.

I've contemplated it.

The basic problem isn't, generally, the setting. The setting is pretty fine, so long as you buy into 40k to start with (and if you don't, why the fuck would you play DH or any of the others anyway?). No, the problems are primarily in the system.

- d100 roll under
- with assumptions about your statline such that basic tasks tend to give +10 to +30 to your stat (not your roll, this is roll under, silly!)
- LOTS of little fiddly +1 to +3 bonuses that basically do nothing, because d100 RNG
- Rolling on a random chart at chargen (once, no rerolls) that can have positive OR negative effects, up to and including bonuses to the stat that gives you straight up extra lives (basically, Edge from Shadowrun)
- All of the basic sins of Shadowrun vis a vis combat (individual bullet counting, fiddly recoil systems, full auto is mathematically OBVIOUSLY superior)
- but with the added bonus of your characters being clownshoes incompetent (even a combat focused character is unlikely to have a base to-hit higher than 50 or so, before adding penalties, and that's with really min-maxed gear)
- Which is why FA is obviously superior, since it gives you a substantial bonus to hit
- and then there's the hideously complicated advancement system in DH 1st Edition (which, to be fair, FFG inherited, and then worked very hard to make at least somewhat less insane)
- Critical hit tables like it's the early 80s all over again

This is just what I can pull out of my memory on five minutes notice. If I actually pulled out the books I could give you more, but I feel like that should give you a basic primer on some of the critical failures in the FFG 40k RPGs. Most of those are consistent between the games, though they tweaked the combat math on FA attacks some so it was less of the 'duh' choice, and made the advancement less ass. Meanwhile, the different game lines are about as similar as 3rd Ed D&D and 3.5 - lots of little tiny changes.

The whole damn thing could have been done better by just straight up using Shadowrun's basic system - in fact, that is precisely what I recommend, if you want to run one of them. Considering the supposed lethality of the setting, the 2 shot problem is more of a feature than a bug in 40k.

Hadanelith wrote:Considering the supposed lethality of the setting, the 2 shot problem is more of a feature than a bug in 40k.

However melee is supposed to be a pretty big part of 40K. "Drive me closer, I want to hit them with my sword/power X/hammer/chainsword/thunder fist". Choppa orkz, bashees, cultists, non-tzenceth daemons, etc. And a melee character kinda needs by definition of being quite durable with all the guns and explosives around.

Although granted I've heard that in FFG you'll still get shot to bits if trying to close in melee so full-auto with the biggest weapon you can carry (and fire full-auto) is the way to go. In particular the ultimate class in Deathwatch seems to be the devastator with an heavy bolter that can one-round pretty much anything short of a titan, including hive tyrants and daemon princes.

Hadanelith wrote:The basic problem isn't, generally, the setting. The setting is pretty fine, so long as you buy into 40k to start with (and if you don't, why the fuck would you play DH or any of the others anyway?). No, the problems are primarily in the system.

I disagree. Let's take Dark Heresy as an example. This is a game about playing the whipping boys of Space Gestapo. Your character classes are Arbiter (space Judge Dredd), Techpriest, Priest, Assassin, etc. But for a game about Space Gestapo, a crucial piece of information is missing - what are you rights. For Inquisitors it's simple, they can do everything they can get away with without being assassinated. But you are not playing inquisitors, you are playing acolytes. So what can you do? Can you arrest a noble? Can you commandeer a vehicle? If you get into a shootout in a bar, how are the local arbites supposed to react? Are warrants a thing? What about career-related rights? Can I flash my AdMech badge and walk into a house to fiddle with its machine spirits?
The answer to all of these questions is undefined.

maglag wrote:

Hadanelith wrote:Considering the supposed lethality of the setting, the 2 shot problem is more of a feature than a bug in 40k.

However melee is supposed to be a pretty big part of 40K. "Drive me closer, I want to hit them with my sword/power X/hammer/chainsword/thunder fist". Choppa orkz, bashees, cultists, non-tzenceth daemons, etc. And a melee character kinda needs by definition of being quite durable with all the guns and explosives around.

Although granted I've heard that in FFG you'll still get shot to bits if trying to close in melee so full-auto with the biggest weapon you can carry (and fire full-auto) is the way to go. In particular the ultimate class in Deathwatch seems to be the devastator with an heavy bolter that can one-round pretty much anything short of a titan, including hive tyrants and daemon princes.

I'm playing a Devestator in a Deathwatch game. The rest of the squad is heavily melee focused. With so many encounters starting in melee range, I've been using a pistol as often as a heavy weapon. Although I have a Heavy Bolter, I needed to choose a Missile Launcher for the current mission. In 40K, every creature has a toughness that you need to get through. Heavy Bolter isn't enough to destroy a tank or some of the other hardened targets (at least, not usually). The missile launcher lets you use anti-personnel missiles (Frag) or anti-tank missiles (Krak).

Hadanelith wrote:If nothing else, this opens the way for a possible new 40k RPG that doesn't have terrible mechanics. I'm not saying it's likely, mind you; just noting the possibility.

1. Your naivete is refreshingly sweet.

2. The Dark Heresy engine was created by GW's Black Library. So instead the line is going back to the shitweasels who created it.

Hadanelith wrote:The basic problem isn't, generally, the setting. The setting is pretty fine, so long as you buy into 40k to start with (and if you don't, why the fuck would you play DH or any of the others anyway?). No, the problems are primarily in the system.

Actually the 40k setting is such a sprawling clusterfuck of headaches and disasters it is a primary problem.

My solution to it was to approach the 40k setting as a theme and mood more than a setting. I created the details and as long as the switches and shit were made of actual human skulls, the ends justified the means, and you shouted "For the Emperor!" a lot, you could pretty much overlay that over any sufficiently feudal flavored mindcaulk and you'd hit the right area that is the Imperium.

I mean, if you look at canon, you have space marines either portrayed as slightly more hardened than humans all the way to immortal godlike beings and everything in between. Sometimes in the same story.

The self-contradictory sprawl of 40k is one of the reasons I like it. It means that with a couple of surface trappings in place, I can create whatever setting I want, call it the Elimomahc Sector, and nobody will bat an eye.

Chamomile shares my capacity for really liking things that are bad, or terrible, or terribad. I never got into War Hams myself (I own a bunch of 40k minis, and I maintain that I am terrible at assebling, that they are fucking bullshit to assemble, and that fuck those things) but Chamomile and I are in accord as far as Dragonlance goes.