Thanks for the responses everyone -- I've still had to parse through it all a little (seems unavoidable due to a completely broken system...) but otherwise pretty insightful.
I should also mention I've got 5th MI Ed version of the game in hardcover. Got it. Read it cover to cover. Planning to host it in the near future. Full disclosure on that front.
This is not my first system so I noticed... just odd things, really. Wondered if it was just me -- guess not.
Nath wrote:- Long, tedious, dreadfully burdening character generation.
- Separate realms of play.
- Non-reducible rules.
- An annoying fandom (I oughta know, I belong to it).
I never pay attention to sample characters. They're usually shit regardless of the system. It's even worse when companies try to sell them.
The character creation section was not clear on little things like the numbers in parentheses being used to buy Rez and stuff. You have to intuit that. That's a fucking killer for most people -- how did that not get flagged?
Also, Trolls and Orcs get fucked over. Hard. Trolls the worst (that low LOG and CHA... fuck). And Elves are once again held up as the best thing since Tolkein shat out Mordor in a three-volume series. They get the stats that actually allow them to be effective at the shit you really want to do... but don't want to be a fucking elf to do it and
shouldn't have to be to do it.
Mages can be Initiated. I read that a few times earlier in the book and it was built up to be this "the next level" shit. Cool to know. My question is: why don't Technomancers get an equiv? Something like "Restructured" or "Reformatted" or whatever. Even from chargen, I could tell they were getting ready to be shafted later on in the book power/features-wise.
NWOD's fandom is worse, dude. Far. Worse. From a bit of reading on Catalyst's own forums, they seem pretty well composed in comparison.
FrankTrollman wrote:There are five editions of Shadowrun, with some pretty radical changes in game mechanics between them.
But one thing that is always and forever the same is that the Matrix is fucking unplayable.
No person in the history of the world has ever conducted a single successful by-the-book hacking mission in those editions. It has never happened and it will never happen, because that shit is literally unplayable.
The rabbit hole is really fucking stupid and really fucking deep.
-Username17
DMG looked fucked when I starting reading the combat section and health and just anything fighting related. The values seemed really high compared to the stats starting characters are going to have. Not even that it was lethal, just seemed kinda stoopid to me. My own system S.I.T.R.E.P is lethal but that's becuase it's been designed from the start to actually do a shootout the way a shootout plays out in real-life -- i.e. lots of bullets flying and back and forth but it's that one that gets ya that hits you hard, concetrated attrition essentially. Arms Race style stats just break down and that's what SR seems to be doing.
If it's anywhere near as bad as WH40KRP's system or the GMC update, I can deal, don't worry, hah hah. I highly suspect you're gonna drop a nuke-level example just to put me in my place though.
What I can't understand is why they've just shit the bed when it comes to Technomancers and then it seems like (keyword: seems. Have only read 5th Ed!) they've "retro'd" the Decker in some way to make them still "the way" to be a computer guy in the game.
From my understanding of the spirit of the Technomancer concept, they are the worst thing a modern building or street just by itself could face. They can not only hack but quickly, effectively and intuitively blow lights by looking at them, disable cameras, open secure doors, cause cars to speed off etc... They're supposed to be the tech Shaman (another archetype not well explained in this book but one I picked up on) but they're... not. It sucks.
Now, I read some shit about Catalyst on Dumpshock (didn't even know what the site was, just caught up in reading the drama, lotta drama in RPGs back then) like a couple years back but... this. Holy. Shit.
FrankTrollman wrote:On Shadowrun Magic: it has the most internally consistent set of magical physics of any game system ever made.
Now there have been five editions. There have been lots of things that were game mechanically problematic.
The underlying costs to have access to magic of various kinds have gone up and down massively over the editions.
One underlying issue that I would say is fairly consistent is that because the game runs on a "chosen one" model of "personal and internal" magic, that there is very little reason to go steal magical stuff from other people.
-Username17
Seems like anything that isn't straight spellcasting isn't really encouraged by the system. Even summoning is written and built in a way as to quasi-discouraged specialization in it. Enchanting seems pretty limited and the whole business with Loci seems stupid. Mage The Awakening kept it simple with the former and Werewolf The Forsaken makes Loci a surprisingly fun King Of The Hill mini-game at Tier 2 and above.
Oh shit, only Elves can really use the magic items? Oh no, that HAS to go. Like right now. How the fuck did that not get flagged during design?
Also, I kinda get the whole Aspected Magician thing but it seems... it seems like you'd be facing way more Aspected than actual Magicians in the game. 'Cept its written like you'd be facing the opposite. Even though as in real-life, inborn talent is rare and like in the Ravenor novels, not everyone gets to be a Delta Psyker like titular character. Wagemage was mentioned in the flavor section at the start of the book sooo... how can they
not be Aspected?
I liked Mage The Awakening's system for magic, played and run pretty legit across the board. Why do you think Shadowrun's is potentially better?
Grek wrote:How has nobody gotten around to talking about the problems with essence?
But basically, in Shadowrun you have six arbitrary units of points, which are spent to have cybernetic stuff attached to you.
The problem arises because once they settled on the names and the concepts for this system, they forgot about the original game mechanical point of it when it came time to assign essence prices.
If you had to sacrifice Morality to get Endowments in Hunter The Vigil, no-one in their right mind would have used them. So why are they doing it here? I mean, I get it but I don't
get it.
Also, any attempt to modify your body like that, in such an invasive manner (which is what bio-mechanical augmentation is at the end of the day) should cost, regardless of utility. Same amount regardless but you do a benefits v drawbacks cost-up like the R&D system from HTV. Makes much more sense.
Stahlseele wrote:Yes, Essence . . which they tried to use as a limiting factor on magic . . and then promptly overruled with initiation . . and left the limiting factor for the mundanes of course . .
See, why the fuck did they do that? Like above, why isn't there an equiv for TMs because it very much seems like they are two sides of the same credstick wafer.
Ancient History wrote:But it broke my heart.
Awwwwwhh...
Trill wrote:IIRC Coleman, Hardy and another one in the staff are Mormons. And Mormons have a rule that forces them to prefer dealing with Mormons against non-Mormons. And which also prevents them from speaking against a fellow follower. Which is why they supported Coleman even though he embezzled about a mil.
What in the
actual fuck...
That's on that shit where Asian only deal with other Asians. Keep the money within the people 'n' all that shit. I respect it but fuck me if that didn't backfire badly on them at Catalyst.
Koumei wrote:I'm going to hazard a guess that it was 4th, because that's the one that came before Coleman's Personal House Building Edition, Thank You the Curtains are Lovely!
Now, I've learned you literally cannot play it effectively on PbP because you're supposed to do planning and such
So there are some hurdles there, now that we're all old and have busy lifestyles and move away from gaming groups and all that. But I'm pretty sure a lot of people played Shadowrun a lot and liked doing it and even looked forward to doing it.
you'd just go full teenager and add Dinoriders and Lava Warlock Mutant Ninja Wolverines Piloting Mecha... From the Moon.
I
see what you did there. You must be out of your mind because no man could EVER pick a good set of curtains, please darling...
I've done PBC before briefly when I was helping out with the WODCodex, doing wiki shit here and there. Discord had been recently introduced by the guy who scratchpadded the site and he liked the idea of having games on there so I said what the hell and GM'd for it. Got a pretty successful group going but fairly shortly I got a real-life game going on top of running my club and since I prefer real-life nerds I dropped it like that. Main point: just like Skype games, it attracts a certain crowd that, fortunately, is not my primary source of gaming peeps. Some of these dudes could transfer over, shame they're an ocean and states apart.
I'm mid-20's and I already feel old, hah hah!
I'm pretty fortunate because I just seem to attract the kind of nerds that want to played pretty grounded games. We have a laugh but we keep it on point the whole way. I imagine my Shadowrun games will continue this legacy. One of my players once had his PC, dressed in like a vest and cargo shorts and sneakers, just straight walk into a vape shop out of an SUV wearing a kevlar vest and wielding an M4 and scare the shit out of the guy behind the counter into letting him into the meth den basement. It was amazing: literally amazing. This happens a lot.