The Gaming Den

FrankTrollman wrote:

Grek wrote:They kinda do. Level 6 is the point where challenges start having "you must be this tall to go on this adventure" checks.

But the monsters don't need hat changes because until you hit mass battles the concept of every monster is just "level appropriate monster."

Manticores don't need to have an advanced monster class. They are whatever level they are, and they just act as Harriers at whatever level you set them. It is the responsibility of every playable character class to deliver numbers and abilities that don't get automatically kited to death by Manticores at the level that Manticores are expected opposition.

-Username17

So the idea of monster classes has been discussed on and off in various threads. Manticores are harriers 'cause they can hit and run with their wings n' tail shots. Medusa are lurkers 'cause they pop up and petrify you. I'm guessing Mind Flayers would be controllers. Not sure how to categorize dragons as they tend to do many things well.

I'd like to get down a list of what monsters fulfill what roles at what levels. I figure the Brute line will be full of giants, the lurker line to have lots of different puzzle monsters, the harrier line to be mostly flying fellows.

Here's a list of normal animals that would be brutes I guess 'cause they walk or climb and don't have ranged attacks.

1-Chimpanzee, Cassowary
2-Gorilla, Black Bear, raptor
3-brown bear, terror bird
4-Utah Raptor
5-allosaurus
6-Tyrannosaurus
7-Spinosaurus

I really assumed that the 'monster classes' were actual classes, not unlike NPC classes and not just labels you slapped to monsters because they do a thing good.

MGuy wrote:I really assumed that the 'monster classes' were actual classes, not unlike NPC classes and not just labels you slapped to monsters because they do a thing good.

Yeah that's what I'm asking, what class is a griffon or wyvern and what level are they, would you consider them both the same class (Harriers cause they fly?)

Griffon lands to kill you - I'd say Brute if it's hard-hitting and hard-to-kill, Ravager if it lands on you with everything and hopes you die before you have chance to kill it back.

Wyvern - typically a brawler, flies down, stings. If it then flies back up to wait for the poison to work, could be a Controller or Harrier. If it lands, Warhammer-style, and beats you to death, it's probably a Brute.

I can see an argument that some monsters might be Brute5/Harrier 2 (Wyvern, for example). Depends on the multiclassing you have in mind.

Whiysper wrote:Griffon lands to kill you - I'd say Brute if it's hard-hitting and hard-to-kill, Ravager if it lands on you with everything and hopes you die before you have chance to kill it back.

IIRC Ravagers start out not too dangerous but get more powerful each round, so it's a tricky choice on whether to direct resources at dealing with it now or later relative to other threats.

Obviously I haven't thought much about the upper ends of the spectrum. The concept with Harriers is that anything which pounces and disengages or does swoop attacks or sits around the edges doing ranged attacks is a Harrier.

Level 1
Boggle (Brute)
Giant Ant (Brute)
Zombie (Brute)
Corallax (Controller)
Dretch (Controller)
Pixie (Controller)
Giant Rat (Harrier)
Harpy (Harrier)
War Dog/Wolf (Harrier)
War Horse (Harrier)
Wisp (Harrier)
Cobra (Lurker)
Giant Scorpion (Lurker)
Giant Bee (Ravager)
Legion Fiend (Ravager)
Skeleton (Ravager)

Level 2
Bone Fiend (Brute)
Giant Crab (Brute)
Ogre (Brute)
Ice Golem (Brute)
Spriggan (Brute)
Howler (Controller)
Imp (Controller)
Dryad (Controller)
Vampire Spawn (Controller)
Bird Fiend (Harrier)
Blink Dog (Harrier)
Mephit (Harrier)
Peryton (Harrier)
Worg (Harrier)
Giant Spider (Lurker)
Ghoul (Ravager)
Fire Fiend (Ravager)
Satyr (Ravager)

Level 3
Earth Elemental (Brute)
Minotaur (Brute)
Owlbear (Brute)
Wight (Brute)
Yeti (Brute)
Frost Fiend (Controller)
Nymph (Controller)
Water Elemental (Controller)
Air Elemental (Harrier)
Hell Hound (Harrier)
Hippogryph (Harrier)
Winter Wolf (Harrier)
Cockatrice (Lurker)
Displacer Beast (Lurker)
Gargoyle (Lurker)
Boar Fiend (Ravager)
Fire Elemental (Ravager)
Ghast (Ravager)
Glass Golem (Ravager)

Level 4
Ettin (Brute)
Flesh Golem (Brute)
Mummy (Brute)
Umber Hulk (Brute)
Naga (Controller)
Siren (Controller)
Vampire (Controller)
Gryphon (Harrier)
Nightmare (Harrier)
Unicorn (Harrier)
Wraith (Harrier)
Basilisk (Lurker)
Hellcat (Lurker)
Invisible Stalker (Lurker)
Phase Spider (Lurker)


Level 5
Large Earth Elemental (Brute)
Troll (Brute)
Wood Golem (Brute)
Large Water Elemental (Controller)
Oread (Controller)
Rakshasa (Controller)
Large Air Elemental (Harrier)
Manticore (Harrier)
Marrash (Harrier)
Drider (Lurker)
Medusa (Lurker)
Roper (Lurker)
Spider Fiend (Lurker)
Chaos Beast (Ravager)
Large Fire Elemental (Ravager)


Level 6
Hill Giant (Brute)
Clay Golem (Brute)
Toad Fiend (Brute)
Mind Flayer (Controller)
Succubus (Controller)
Wyvern (Harrier)
Specter (Harrier)
Gorgon (Lurker)


Level 7
Elephant (Brute)
Huge Earth Elemental (Brute)
Stone Giant (Brute)
Stone Golem (Brute)
Huge Water Elemental (Controller)
Marid (Controller)
Genie (Controller)
Chimera (Harrier)
Huge Air Elemental (Harrier)
Catoblepas (Lurker)
Hydra (Lurker)
Huge Fire Elemental (Ravager)


Level 8
Frost Giant (Brute)
Iron Golem (Brute)
Dao (Controller)
Efreet (Controller)

Level 9
Fire Giant (Brute)
Charnel Hound (Harrier)


Level 10
Cloud Giant (Brute)
Beholder (Controller)
Sphinx (Controller)
Phoenix (Harrier)
Marilith (Ravager)

Prestige Antagonists
Hullathoin
Kraken
Megapede
Nightmare Beast
Orcwort
Pit Fiend
Roc

Is there room for a boss category of monster that covers multiple monster archetypes, such as dragons. Or should they just be like a class that you could apply to something like a hydra or wyvern?

I lean towards the latter. I also don’t mind if dragons are mostly harriers and only named dragons with classes are going around casting spells.

So, how do the monster classes actually work?

Is it a build-your-own monster where you pick the right features to make the right monster,
or is a package deal, so you would pick Boggle when you're level 1, level up and magically become an Ogre, then level up again and turn into a Yeti?

erik wrote:Is there room for a boss category of monster that covers multiple monster archetypes, such as dragons. Or should they just be like a class that you could apply to something like a hydra or wyvern?

I lean towards the latter. I also don’t mind if dragons are mostly harriers and only named dragons with classes are going around casting spells.

Obviously 4th edition made a hash of its elite monsters and boss monsters. Those things were grindy and boring and terrible. 5th edition made a hash of its boss monsters as well, and again they are grindy and boring and terrible.

The broader question of whether boss monsters could be not terrible is I think an open one. Video game bosses are cool, but they also exist in another medium where you aren't rolling all the dice and keeping track of all the damage with a pencil. It's not easy or obvious how you'd convert them to the much slower table top medium without it becoming a snoozefest.

DK wrote:So, how do the monster classes actually work?

Is it a build-your-own monster where you pick the right features to make the right monster,
or is a package deal, so you would pick Boggle when you're level 1, level up and magically become an Ogre, then level up again and turn into a Yeti?

It's a monster-builder thing. But of course when you level up a Boggle it might have stats and abilities equivalent to an Ogre.

-Username17

FrankTrollman wrote:The broader question of whether boss monsters could be not terrible is I think an open one. Video game bosses are cool, but they also exist in another medium where you aren't rolling all the dice and keeping track of all the damage with a pencil. It's not easy or obvious how you'd convert them to the much slower table top medium without it becoming a snoozefest.

The thing I've had the most traction with at my table - both as the MC, and asking my players' opinions about how things have gone - is boss monsters that have noticeable phase changes, with 3 phases, each phase having around the HP of a normal monster appropriate for their level. This seems to hit all the right buttons without getting stupid: the fights are longer, but "feel" right, for whatever that's worth.

That includes things like giving them more actions and/or reactions, ways to break stun-locks, and making the phase changes really obvious with flashy abilities.

erik wrote:Is there room for a boss category of monster that covers multiple monster archetypes, such as dragons. Or should they just be like a class that you could apply to something like a hydra or wyvern?

I lean towards the latter. I also don’t mind if dragons are mostly harriers and only named dragons with classes are going around casting spells.

Wouldn't a higher level monster be it?

Reactive abilities or riders that only activate against lower level threats can help make up for 6 vs 1 action economy issues. Like how higher level AD&D fighters are blenders vs kobolds.

A general 'stomp' maneuver for big monsters that wouldn't be good against level appropriate threats but great against little weaker dudes also helps. A gargantuan dragon can scatter an army simply by walking through it but that wouldn't be an attack against another dragon of similar size.

I figure you could assign different classes to different dragons like...

Red- Brute with the thickest hardest heaviest scales and covered in flames
Blue- Ravager that builds up electrical charge
Black- Lurker that blends into terrain to trap you in acid pools
Green- Controller with persistent clouds
White- Harrier especially swift on the wing

FrankTrollman wrote:.
The broader question of whether boss monsters could be not terrible is I think an open one. Video game bosses are cool, but they also exist in another medium where you aren't rolling all the dice and keeping track of all the damage with a pencil. It's not easy or obvious how you'd convert them to the much slower table top medium without it becoming a snoozefest.

I think a way to do it might be to pull from Sentinels of the Multiverse / Aeon's End / co-op boardgame side and have the boss monster start with some effects/spawns/appendages that are higher threat and lower HP than the boss itself, and then throw out more such effects during the fight.

Thus the tactical puzzle becomes a matter of triage between dealing with the effects and damaging the boss itself.

So do monster classes also give certain power schedules? Or is it going to be like the TOME Fiend, Hicks Mage spheres. So a lower level petrification monster can only do that once a day while the medusa has enough petrification spheres to have it at-will.

I can see monsters built like 4e classes with at will/short rest/long rest powers that slot in and out depending on level.

Some suggest associated mechanics

Brute- At Will Hero stuff
Harrier, Lurker- Conditional Rogue stuff
Controller- Fiendish Sphere stuff
Ravager- Channeling, Assassin precision stuff

The monsters do have power schedules, but they need to have painfully simple ones because they're multiclasses and juggling two fiddly power schedules is largely not acceptable

Regarding Ravager, I am not sure what you mean by Channeling, you mean the thing where they dump actions now for damage later? That actually makes more sense with Lurkers, since Lurkers get to spend those actions while undetectable and then pop out and maul someone, unless I am mistaking monster class premises.

Almaz wrote: Regarding Ravager, I am not sure what you mean by Channeling, you mean the thing where they dump actions now for damage later?

That's what I'm guessing, since he threw in Assassin precision with it. Although, the difference with channeling could be that you're doing damage each round, but it increases the longer you spend doing it. This is how the same-named mechanic works in Diablo III.